Open Apology to Community

[Trieu]

John, I never met you nor did any deals with you and it is courageous of you to step up with an explanation.

I could care less about the drama that goes on this community and my whole stance here isn't about being an expert on the legitimacy of AF3 or PSII, but to serve as a voice for those who are buyers to be cautious as the whole scenario from the start wreaked of shadiness. I myself was a victim of attempted fraud as well documented by a thread that still exists on this site so it is my duty to at least warn others of suspicious sales, especially one that demands a sizable amount of money.

This whole situation isn't anything personal as many took it the wrong way. Without the pressure that many applied involved by numerous members, this could have gotten worse and truly damaged the NEO GEO AES scene entirely, so it's more than 'just one title' but the community as a whole.

 

[Jassin000]

All drama aside, its really amazing to me this didn't happen much sooner. I don't claim to be a expert on anything Neo-Geo, only a fan of some games. What I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt, anytime a object (regardless of what that item is) sees a collected value of 30k$+ people are going to try to counterfeit said object. The higher the value the more advanced the forgery is going to become to convince buyers of its legitimacy. The AES scene is no more damaged then any other collector market with counterfeiters among its ranks. To think it couldn't happen here, or that long time members wouldn't be involved, is the only real mistake anyone has made far as I'm concerned. I don't personally know any of the people involved in this, so I can't speak of character or integrity. It seems to me John is telling the truth, but I'll never know for sure, and its unimportant now anyways. Whats been done is now done, the scene needs to move forward. If John needs to step down, from whatever position he held (be it honorary or otherwise) for that to happen, then its for the best.

 

[malignantpoodle]

I just wanted to make it clear that I personally believe it's a damn shame that John feels he needs to do this.

What he did was state that, as a big-time Neo fan, the game seemed legit to him --he never held himself out as a printing or engineering expert, in fact he clearly stated he wasn't in his report. Unfortunately, that put him in the middle of a very, very messy situation. But I do, without a doubt, think he was acting in good faith and would not have ever been dumb enough to risk his attorney's license by acting in bad faith. It's just not him; in my mind he's always been, and remains, one of the good guys.

I've said pretty early on, before his report came out, that I would be careful with putting serious credence in it. He and I are both attorneys with a passion for the Neo. He even wrote a solid article for that British rag. Still: I know I wouldn't trust my own expertise on authenticating a cart like AF3 because I'm not a printing or engineering expert...I'm a lawyer and that's just not something I'm as familiar with. With that said, John compared stuff and seemed to be convinced. He was willing to stick his Neo Geo-related rep out there a bit and, in the end, it didn't go over that well. I'm a little more risk adverse, but that's neither here nor there.

Bottom line is that I want the people who are reading this thread to know that I think John shouldn't have to resign from anything, that he tried to do his best, and that I am very disappointed in the at times lamentable behavior behind the scenes that led to John taking this action...by two mods no less. I won't name names, but you can guess for yourselves.

I guess I just don't understand that position.

If I do electrical work on your home and it burns to the grounds because of it, the fact that I tell you up front that I'm not an electrician hardly removes all responsibility. The fact that I may have been acting in good faith and really did the best job I could with what I knew, and really just wanted to save you a few bucks hardly absolves me. It's still negligent at best and criminal at very worst despite my intentions.

It doesn't make sense if, as you say, "He was willing to stick his Neo Geo-related rep out there a bit and, in the end, it didn't go over that well." that he shouldn't have to be accountable if that was the case. If you lay your reputation on the line and that which you were attesting to fails, so too does your reputation. It's contradictory to state that he has done this, yet believe at the same time he's in no way accountable and shouldn't have to resign or even apologize.

Licensing exists to help regulate and protect people from potential harm from services that carry risk. Medicine, law, and other professions are licensed for these reasons. While there exists no Neo authentication licensing, taking part in this is in the same spirit; large sums of money are being exchanged with high potential for harm. Knowing this and deciding to become involved while admitting to be no expert means being accountable when things go wrong.

 

[xb74]

there exists no Neo authentication licensing.

Possibly the best point out of this whole saga.

IMO, The argument at basic level is over printing consistency and abnormalties of an insert and sticker.

Both sides have experience with the items in question but nobody is an "expert". Both sides have claimed as much.

Problem (as I see it): No independent authentication body for Neo cartridges in the forum.

Solution/s (off the top of my head): A selection of persons voted by all forum members who have requisite skills/experience in printing, plastics, access to collections, etc, etc.
: or, Enforce the often discussed join up fee and use these monies to enable outside help in the above.

It's futile having both sides calling each other liars. There needs to be an umpire of sorts.

The money in these games warrants a modernization of approaches to this recurring issue.

 

[Colorado Rockie]

Solution/s (off the top of my head): A selection of persons voted by all forum members who have requisite skills/experience in printing, plastics, access to collections, etc, etc.

It's futile having both sides calling each other liars. There needs to be an umpire of sorts.

The money in these games warrants a modernization of approaches to this recurring issue.

Good intentions, but this would probably only create more problems rather then solutions.

 

[Takumaji]

Licensing exists to help regulate and protect people from potential harm from services that carry risk. Medicine, law, and other professions are licensed for these reasons. While there exists no Neo authentication licensing, taking part in this is in the same spirit; large sums of money are being exchanged with high potential for harm. Knowing this and deciding to become involved while admitting to be no expert means being accountable when things go wrong.

Not really. We're talking about a hobby here, read, playing & collecting Neo games, not a vital service such as the healthcare system, the law or electric installations which may or may not involve the risk for both the operator and customer/patient/client of getting inadvertedly killed or mistreated, guiltlessly imprisoned or roasted alife. During the last 12 years I've been here, I've been asked on numerous occasions to comment on the authenticity of carts or NGCDs and was always willing to oblige, helping your fellow Neo fans out is what a community is all about, after all. However, I always made sure to tell people that I can only give them hints, the final decision is up to them.

If Geddon's report was done in good faith (which I still believe at this point), he gave us his nonbinding hobbyist's view on the matter, and that's that. If you want to hold hobbyists liable for what they say online, you might as well close down recreational or hobby sites altogether, otherwise anyone who ever published a mod'ing document, buying tips or technical hints in a forum or elsewhere will run the risk of getting sued because someone burned down his house while trying to implement a 50/60Hz switch into his NGCD or shelled out big time, only to find out later on that the buying tips given in good faith were wrong.

 

[90s]

Problem (as I see it): No independent authentication body for Neo cartridges in the forum.

Solution/s (off the top of my head): A selection of persons voted by all forum members who have requisite skills/experience in printing, plastics, access to collections, etc, etc.

It's futile having both sides calling each other liars. There needs to be an umpire of sorts.

The only real solution as I see it is if someone who worked for SNK at the time and has a good memory of what games were created and what their characteristics were would do the authentication of disputed games. I don't know how feasible this is.

 

[aria]

I think John's apology was totally appropriate, but people pretending this was anything more than hobbiests trying to do their best is silly and I think those people conflating it into otherwise think this is some grand endeavor. Nope, it isn't. It's a hobby were people took risks without relying on anyone with expertise and they got burned. I still think they should get their money back, because that's no excuse for fraud or unjust enrichment; but it's possible to hold that view and think this is just a hobby. Any additional posturing is superfluous. With the harassment that John went through, I wouldn't have blamed him if he had just walked away.

While I appreciate the idea of creating some way of independent authentication body or licensing, there's no way to compare the licensing requirements for law or similar professions to what would be required here. As Tak mentioned, this is just a hobby that happens to occasionally involve high dollar items. Who would create such a board? Before you say this website, realize that credentialing people takes time and money and--if not done perfectly--can create the stench of corruption. I don't think any part of this scene is capable of that.

 

[16-bit]

I just wanted to make it clear that I personally believe it's a damn shame that John feels he needs to do this.

What he did was state that, as a big-time Neo fan, the game seemed legit to him --he never held himself out as a printing or engineering expert, in fact he clearly stated he wasn't in his report. Unfortunately, that put him in the middle of a very, very messy situation. But I do, without a doubt, think he was acting in good faith and would not have ever been dumb enough to risk his attorney's license by acting in bad faith. It's just not him; in my mind he's always been, and remains, one of the good guys.

I've said pretty early on, before his report came out, that I would be careful with putting serious credence in it. He and I are both attorneys with a passion for the Neo. He even wrote a solid article for that British rag. Still: I know I wouldn't trust my own expertise on authenticating a cart like AF3 because I'm not a printing or engineering expert...I'm a lawyer and that's just not something I'm as familiar with. With that said, John compared stuff and seemed to be convinced. He was willing to stick his Neo Geo-related rep out there a bit and, in the end, it didn't go over that well. I'm a little more risk adverse, but that's neither here nor there.

Bottom line is that I want the people who are reading this thread to know that I think John shouldn't have to resign from anything, that he tried to do his best, and that I am very disappointed in the at times lamentable behavior behind the scenes that led to John taking this action...by two mods no less. I won't name names, but you can guess for yourselves.

John Thacker does not disclose the price he paid for AF3. Did he pay 20-30K for his copy or significantly less? A significantly discounted price would reflect well on the value DavidG placed on his report.

Good faith or conflict of interest?

 

[aria]

John Thacker does not disclose the price he paid for AF3. Did he pay 20-30K for his copy or significantly less? A significantly discounted price would reflect well on the value DavidG placed on his report.

Good faith or conflict of interest?

He didn't put a price on the cart, so where's the issue?

 

[aria]

For those who haven't seen, can't remember, etc, Geddon's Report, here are the links to it:


Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Immediately afterward he added this little addendum (posted on March 13):

(by the way, if someday a smoking gun comes along that proves me wrong about all of this, I’ll remind myself that this is a 16 year old video game that we’re talking about, and I will man up and own it for you doubters out there. but… I don’t think that’s going to happen. ☺ )

 

[16-bit]

No he didn't make an appraisal on value, but that is not the point I am making. It would be very telling if the AF3 John Thaker owns was purchased by him at a significantly discounted price compared to the other offers on the table. All he states is "thousands". Did davidg cut him a deal or did he pay the going rate the other collectors paid?

 

[IDCHAPPY]

No he didn't make an appraisal on value, but that is not the point I am making. It would be very telling if the AF3 John Thaker owns was purchased by him at a significantly discounted price compared to the other offers on the table. All he states is "thousands". Did davidg cut him a deal or did he pay the going rate the other collectors paid?

So your asking if he got a kick back for giving it the thumbs in reguards to its authenticity?

 

[aria]

No he didn't make an appraisal on value, but that is not the point I am making. It would be very telling if the AF3 John Thaker owns was purchased by him at a significantly discounted price compared to the other offers on the table. All he states is "thousands". Did davidg cut him a deal or did he pay the going rate the other collectors paid?

He states he bought it after his report. I see what you're implying: that he took the discount as a form of compensation for his report. It's certainly possible. However, I am one to believe he made the report because TonK asked him to help him out and authenticate the cart, and the discount was offered later when it proved hard to push that many AF3s at the original $30k.

Regardless of whether it was good faith or actual COI, I acknowledge it appears bad that Pitt and he received games at a discount. It's a fair point. All I can do is argue that I believe he didn't act in bad faith, but the appearance of a COI is there and I can't dispel that. I think it's one of the strongest arguments against them.

 

[brentsg]

Regarding the theory that John received a discount for his collusion in some sort of scam, I don't see how the logic flows.

Let's assume that he believed the game to be a fake, but that he was involved in a scheme to defraud a buyer. Why on earth would he EVER knowingly pay thousands of dollars for one of these fakes? I don't care if the price was $2000, that would be a stupid purchase.

It just doesn't make any sense.

If anything, I would consider John buying the game at any price greater than that of a bootleg to be further proof that he truly felt it was genuine. He put his money where his mouth was, so to speak.

 

[Tacitus]

If someone buys a car from a lot and negotiates a better price than you, did you get scammed?

If the car you drive home in is a lemon, did the other guy scam you?

If your buddy who fixes cars looked at it first and said "it looks OK to me", did he scam you?

If the sales guy didn't know the transmission was bad or the car may have been stolen, did the sales guy scam you?

(I'm not making stating an opinion either way on the cart's legitimacy with this post, I'm merely pointing out a few points to consider in regards to John, Tonk and others)

 

[Geddon_jt]

Just wanted to thank each and every one of you who have voiced support for me. It really means a lot.

In the interest of full candor, I must acknowledge that the price I paid may well have been less than what others paid, but I am not absolutely certain. To this day I still am not sure exactly what some of the others paid besides what's been posted on here, some of which doesn't match up, and there are buyers that have not shared what they paid. I don't think it's fair to them for me to post specifics about my deal and frankly that deal was between me and the seller, and I'm not asking for a refund, so I'm not going to go any further with the specifics of it.

Brent's point above is absolutely correct - I always believed the game to be real, that's why I bought it. BUT don't get me wrong, I wanted to pay as little as possible for it! It didn't occur to me at that time at all that I should either A) not buy it to avoid something like this happening, or B) make sure I pay around what others are paying to make sure it didn't look like a "kickback" or "reward." For me it appeared as a fleeting opportunity and I went for it.

Listen guys, it's a fucked up situation. The scrutiny about this thing has really gone beyond what anyone, even myself, could have reasonably predicted. I could come in here and say its nobody's business and leave it at that, but I owe it to you guys to continue to be 100% honest. Given what's going on, if I did pay less than everyone else, Bobak is right, that looks the the outside like a "conflict of interest" in light of the unprecedented scrutiny of this situation. For me, the truth is that I was sure the game was real, I had a chance after the report to buy it, and I worked out a deal to get it. I negotiated my deal totally independent of everyone else and there was no "set price" that was being worked off of. People's later perception of the situation was not on my mind at the time, but I guess it probably should have been. I really thought it was real given the facts I had at the time. Again, I had no idea about Power Spikes 2 and all this other stuff.

As silly as it sounds now, one of the true reasons I didn't post about owning the game is because I didn't want people hounding me about it wanting to buy it. Seems crazy right? But it's true. My intention with the game was simply to enjoy it myself, not make a big scene about owning it, as is true for most of my collection. I once had collection pictures up years ago but I took them down, most of my game stuff I don't show off publicly because I don't really feel the need for others to comment on it. Some people get a lot of gratification but for me it feels like bragging and thats not cool. Its for me and my enjoyment and I am satisfied with that, just as I can live with the fact that I shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place and now have a game on my shelf worth a small fraction of the big dollars I paid for it.

 

[evil wasabi]

Regarding the theory that John received a discount for his collusion in some sort of scam, I don't see how the logic flows.

Let's assume that he believed the game to be a fake, but that he was involved in a scheme to defraud a buyer. Why on earth would he EVER knowingly pay thousands of dollars for one of these fakes? I don't care if the price was $2000, that would be a stupid purchase.

It just doesn't make any sense.

If anything, I would consider John buying the game at any price greater than that of a bootleg to be further proof that he truly felt it was genuine. He put his money where his mouth was, so to speak.

Why? Because Tonk sold his "personal copy" for $20000. If I sell you a fake bottle of bottle of 1982 Pétrus for $1000 that you can resell for $2000, we will both be making $1000, and have infinite cash.

Same story.

 

[OrochiEddie]

My understanding is John got the cart (and an offer to buy it) after the report was done. If you were to ask me, It seems like that negates any potential conflict of interest.
I'm also confused as to who spent 30k on this game as Chamane only spent 25k.

 

[16-bit]

I don't know what took place, but key details are still missing, and I hope John Thacker discloses them.

The members involved were hand picked--perhaps for the ease to which a favor or deal along with their passion for the Neo-Geo could cloud their critical thinking skills. Inviting them full on as a co-conspirator in a scam would be much more challenging.

 

[FTL]

I don't know what took place, but key details are still missing, and I hope John Thacker discloses them.

The members involved were hand picked--perhaps for the ease to which a favor or deal along with their passion for the Neo-Geo could cloud their critical thinking skills. Inviting them full on as a co-conspirator in a scam would be much more challenging.

I agree Carlson.

I do think that John and Billy are not in the same position as Tonk is. They got a bargain on the cart and hoped to have scored a high end collectible and probably to resell it in the future in good faith in my opinion.
I don't think they colluded. Besides, we have Mikhail Kiselgof who took part in this (Tonk mentioned he asked him like John and Billy to check the cart and give his opinion) and still my question for him stands: how could he swallow all the lies (blatant lies) from davidG?
Better: how could they all swallow all those lies?

 

[Tinieblas]

My understanding is John got the cart (and an offer to buy it) after the report was done. If you were to ask me, It seems like that negates any potential conflict of interest.
I'm also confused as to who spent 30k on this game as Chamane only spent 25k.

what chamane said, was that david would only had gotten 25k and the other 5k went to Tonk, something like that

 

[16-bit]

In the interest of full candor, I must acknowledge that the price I paid may well have been less than what others paid, but I am not absolutely certain. To this day I still am not sure exactly what some of the others paid besides what's been posted on here, some of which doesn't match up, and there are buyers that have not shared what they paid. I don't think it's fair to them for me to post specifics about my deal and frankly that deal was between me and the seller, and I'm not asking for a refund, so I'm not going to go any further with the specifics of it.

I don't agree with that. Since the AF3 deal has pretty much been exposed as a scam--I think the community has a right to press for more details and assess the scope of this operation and the damages.
Didn't Chamane ask how much you paid?

Whether you pursue a refund or not is your business, though I am sure you are more concerned about your name mentioned in a major news article about this high dollar video game counterfeit scam.

 

[brentsg]

Why? Because Tonk sold his "personal copy" for $20000. If I sell you a fake bottle of bottle of 1982 Pétrus for $1000 that you can resell for $2000, we will both be making $1000, and have infinite cash.

Same story.

Because if the guy flipping the bottle of 1982 Petrus was the same guy that had authenticated it, then it would like like an obvious conflict of interest. If cash was John's endgame then he surely could have secured this without undermining such an elaborete conspiracy by flipping the cart he just gave the thumbs up. He was clearly the person in the worst position to sell this cart.

Also, I don't know anything about a TonK personal copy.

 

[OrochiEddie]

what chamane said, was that david would only had gotten 25k and the other 5k went to Tonk, something like that

o be perfectly honest with everyone. I paid this game 25000 USD.

I want to have 20000$ back if Tonk got 5000$. i'm not asking any money from Tonk.

no it wasn't