PCE Super SD System 3 - Terraonion New Product (Dec 2017)

[Tw3ek]

Take a week off and relax man, geez.

I have a pending order and I’m in no rush for it to be delivered.

You guy do amazing work. Just take this in your stride as a learning experience and move forward.

Head up. Seriously, take some time off before your physical and mental health shuts down.

Great advice. Take a holiday man, I'm sure most people would understand, because it's not worth sacrificing your health.

This is a damn great example of why we cannot have nice things though.

 

[MobiusStripTech]

Sorry, maybe I am missing something here, but how exactly is a coupling cap being the wrong way around having the potential to be harmful? The level is so very low, and that kind of thing happened in Amiga 500's with the audio coupling caps - they lasted 30+ years and still work perfectly today despite the caps being the wrong way around. Not having a go here, just trying to understand what the concerns actually are!

EDIT: Is this a bypass cap? Just trying to catch up - bear with me!

It's an AC coupling cap and yes the level is low. The concern is because it is a tantalum cap. As I know you are aware, tantalum caps can and are known to catch fire when forward voltage is applied to the reverse.

It's hard to say whether this will actually happen. Obviously it hasn't yet but that doesn't mean that it is impossible. If these were electrolytic, it would be an issue but at least a failure wouldn't result in fire.

 

[GadgetUK]

Same here, I'm a little confused by all this now. I've been using a regular genesis2 AV cable connected to the SD System3 with an old CRT. Is this not correct or harmful now?

No, it's not going to damage anything, even if you have the wrong cable. I've got a bunch of different cables here, some with resistor and caps, some with just caps. If you lack resistors in your cable the picture will be brighter (but you probably wouldn't even know). If the caps are missing it wont affect anything really, but the caps should be in the cable too (with regards to RGB connections). Composite tends to just pass through on all cables I've seen. People need to calm down a bit lol, one person mentions a cap issue or a problem with their setup and everyone starts thinking the end of the world is coming...

 

[GadgetUK]

It's an AC coupling cap and yes the level is low. The concern is because it is a tantalum cap. As I know you are aware, tantalum caps can and are known to catch fire when forward voltage is applied to the reverse.

It's hard to say whether this will actually happen. Obviously it hasn't yet but that doesn't mean that it is impossible. If these were electrolytic, it would be an issue but at least a failure wouldn't result in fire.

At 0.7v I will eat my dirty underwear if one of them ever explodes...

EDIT: In fact, isn't the composite level nearer to 0.3v?
EDIT2: 1v p2p with 75ohm terminating resistor? Still, I am not worried in the least. If you are losing sleep, you could turn the cap around or replace it entirely.

 

[pixeljunkie]

At 0.7v I will eat my dirty underwear if one of them ever explodes...

EDIT: In fact, isn't the composite level nearer to 0.3v?

Thank you for posting this - I was starting to get concerned, mainly out of confusion.

 

[Tech&Music]

At 0.7v I will eat my dirty underwear if one of them ever explodes...

EDIT: In fact, isn't the composite level nearer to 0.3v?
EDIT2: 1v p2p with 75ohm terminating resistor? Still, I am not worried in the least. If you are losing sleep, you could turn the cap around or replace it entirely.

I was thinking that as well, as explosive as tants can be when they go wrong, I too would be very, very surprised if video signal levels of voltage can set them off. A whole lot of FUD's being spread IMO.

 

[GadgetUK]

Maybe I am blind here but I actually don't even see the problem. The datasheet indicates the +ve side should be nearest the connector. The photo shows C60's positive side (assuming its a tant) on the side nearest the connector.

 

[fenikso]

NeoSD, take a break, man. The SSDS3 is a fantastic piece of kit, and we all love it.

@MobiusStripTech - Have you tried reversing this cap yourself? If so: What was the result?

I'm just surprised there's any problem on the composite side, because that's all I've been using and even with composite it looks fantastic.

 

[MobiusStripTech]

At 0.7v I will eat my dirty underwear if one of them ever explodes...

EDIT: In fact, isn't the composite level nearer to 0.3v?
EDIT2: 1v p2p with 75ohm terminating resistor? Still, I am not worried in the least. If you are losing sleep, you could turn the cap around or replace it entirely.

I am not losing sleep over it. I have no problem with flipping the cap. That's why I offered to do it for anyone US based as long as Alex and the team were ok with it. Like I said, I agree the voltage is low and it "probably" won't happen. The point is more that if people are concerned, which they do have a right to be, there is a solution.

The world isn't coming to an end but for those who can't flip the cap and want it flipped, there are options without this turning into a huge thing.

 

[MobiusStripTech]

NeoSD, take a break, man. The SSDS3 is a fantastic piece of kit, and we all love it.

@MobiusStripTech - Have you tried reversing this cap yourself? If so: What was the result?

I'm just surprised there's any problem on the composite side, because that's all I've been using and even with composite it looks fantastic.

My Rev1 doesn't work at all so I wouldn't be able to do anything of value with that. Again if Alex and the team are ok with it, I will happily reverse the caps for people.

Maybe I am blind here but I actually don't even see the problem. The datasheet indicates the +ve side should be nearest the connector. The photo shows C60's positive side (assuming its a tant) on the side nearest the connector.

Yes the datasheet is incorrect. AC coupling caps should not be installed in reverse. This was discussed with the TerraOnion engineers outside of this forum.

 

[comp1demon]

My Rev1 doesn't work at all so I wouldn't be able to do anything of value with that. Again if Alex and the team are ok with it, I will happily reverse the caps for people.



Yes the datasheet is incorrect. AC coupling caps should not be installed in reverse. This was discussed with the TerraOnion engineers outside of this forum.

I'd Gladly help out too. FLipping components with Hot Air is super simple and take mere seconds. IF they are cool with it. I am in the USA as well. I will be glad to offer my help as well if anyone wants it.

 

[neodev]

I was thinking that as well, as explosive as tants can be when they go wrong, I too would be very, very surprised if video signal levels of voltage can set them off. A whole lot of FUD's being spread IMO.

Yes, at these signal levels, I think the only issue is the capacitor will probably age faster than in normal usage. Also as soon as I return, I'll try contacting TI about the datasheet.

Also, I haven't seen any report yet about improvements in video noise when reversing it (I have limited connection so I haven't been able to check twitter and other forums about that)

 

[nevets14]

I am tired, i can´t live with this anymore.

I am considering those options right now :

Not selling any more Super SD System 3 and ship all pending orders.

Put my time in other thing and move along.

I can´t live with all this shit alone. Sorry, i got burnt by you guys and this RGB party. Well done

Why give up? This is a brand new one of a kind device and as early adopters we understand(or should at least) that we are "beta testers". As such we test and report back so down the line a 100% perfect product can be achieved. Please don't be discouraged, the more companies out there making devices like this the better. The TG/PCE is getting the love it always deserved.

Thanks again for a fantastic product.

 

[cr4zymanz0r]

@neosd

Some of this might get lost in translation, but I'll try anyway. Yes, I've been critical of the RGB signal from/affected by the SSDS3 but I've been trying to do so in such a way that's provided as feedback. I'm a reasonable guy, and while I do not run a business myself I can understand the financial and mental challenges of doing so. Products for retro consoles are very niche and probably don't have widespread appeal to many people who don't frequent forums such as this one or other retro gaming oriented ones, and development efforts for such products are usually done by a much smaller team than mass marketed products. Due to this, I know it's not entirely abnormal for such products to potentially encounter issues in their initial releases. I'm not wailing and screaming demanding costly board revisions.

However, what I do ask is if you're selling a product as a business to be more business professional. I'm not trying to say "hey, just ignore all the stress you're getting from this". In that respect, take vacation for a week to recoup if it's affecting you that much. Mental well being is important. My focus is on the customer communication itself. I mean when I asked if the video issues I was seeing could be looked in again once the shipping crunch settles down, you basically said "No, it looks fine to us now. We're done with that". I mean, that's a rather poor response to a paying customer. I'm not saying you had to bend over backwards and promise the world to me, but just a simple "We'll check into this as time permits" would've come off much better, and/or opening a new thread for people with similar issues to report their findings to help you gather data for troubleshooting. I was always fine with fixing it myself but just needed someone to find out what the fix was.

As for the recently found reversed capacitor for composite video, I haven't switched mine around yet to see if that helps anything (I'm not using composite video for sync) but will probably see about that this evening or tomorrow. Yes, it's probably stressful for you that "oh no, we've shipped all these boards with this mistake" but you've already had people in here volunteering to fix it on customer boards. The ODE part is great so far and your customers want you to succeed so there will be other helpful products in the future. Just chill, work with your customers providing feedback and volunteering help, and keep communication professional.

@everyone else
I know quite a few of you have stated you're either completely fine with the video output, can't notice any issues, the issues are so minor to you that you're no bothered, etc.. That's fine if you're completely ok with it due to being less picky, are using equipment that doesn't make it visible, etc.. However, just because you're fine with it doesn't invalidate other paying customer's concerns. I'm mostly referring to people that have made comments along the line of "they should just stop worrying about the video quality and play the games".

 

[neosd]

@neosd

Some of this might get lost in translation, but I'll try anyway. Yes, I've been critical of the RGB signal from/affected by the SSDS3 but I've been trying to do so in such a way that's provided as feedback. I'm a reasonable guy, and while I do not run a business myself I can understand the financial and mental challenges of doing so. Products for retro consoles are very niche and probably don't have widespread appeal to many people who don't frequent forums such as this one or other retro gaming oriented ones, and development efforts for such products are usually done by a much smaller time than mass marketed products. Due to this, I know it's not entirely abnormal for such products to potentially encounter issues in their initial releases. I'm not wailing and screaming demanding costly board revisions.

However, what I do ask is if you're selling a product as a business to be more business professional. I'm not trying to say "hey, just ignore all the stress you're getting from this". In that respect, take vacation for a week to recoup if it's affecting you that much. Mental well being is important. My focus is on the customer communication itself. I mean when I asked if the video issues I was seeing could be looked in again once the shipping crunch settles down, you basically said "No, it looks fine to us now. We're done with that". I mean, that's a rather poor response to a paying customer. I'm not saying you had to bend over backwards and promise the world to me, but just a simple "We'll check into this as time permits" would've come off much better, and/or opening a new thread for people with similar issues to report their findings to help you gather data for troubleshooting. I was always fine with fixing it myself but just needed someone to find out what the fix was.

As for the recently found reversed capacitor for composite video, I haven't switched mine around yet to see if that helps anything (I'm not using composite video for sync) but will probably see about that this evening or tomorrow. Yes, it's probably stressful for you that "oh no, we've shipped all these boards with this mistake" but you've already had people in here volunteering to fix it on customer boards. The ODE part is great so far and your customers want you to succeed so there will be other helpful products in the future. Just chill, work with your customers providing feedback and volunteering help, and keep communication professional.

@everyone else
I know quite a few of you have stated you're either completely fine with the video output, can't notice any issues, the issues are so minor to you that you're no bothered, etc.. That's fine if you're completely ok with it due to being less picky, are using equipment that doesn't make it visible, etc.. However, just because you're fine with it doesn't invalidate other paying customer's concerns. I'm mostly referring to people that have made comments along the line of "they should just stop worrying about the video quality and play the games".

You and the rest are demanding a 0 seccond answer to anything, and this is killing my health and my relationship with my wife and kids.

I don´t have any help on that, just critics and i have decided that its not worth to continue this way.

i want my life back, easy, and i am going to get it. My patience reached a limit where i don´t care anymore about the quality of your RGB, i care much more about my health and my familiy.

So ask Amazon to produce such things, and demand them 0 seccond fixes. Do the same with Intel and ask then for a replacement CPU.

I decided that i am tired and i wont keep with this way of life, if it can be told life at all


You guys don´t gave us time to work, you guys wanted 0 seccond answers to anything, it dosen´t matters if this is saturday, sunday, if i am eating of whathever

I am tired about people coming here to tell the board is going to burn and answering emails cause that,

I am tired about answering at forums, i should not be doing this and this is the last time i am going to do it.


You guys, have created an ecosystem that is killing us, where a guy comes here saying the board is going to burn (without any scientific explanation), and everyone starts panic.

One can´t live with a pile of people using a scope everyday over our pcbs trying to find issues and magnifying anything, big or small.

I just wish you guys sit down and think if you could live with such situation at your jobs, with your boss putting preasure among the 8 working hours. No like the preasure we are receiving everyday at any hour.

One can´t work or live this way, if you can´t see that, you guys are the ones with the issue not us

 

[Syn]

You're feeling overwhelmed right now, bro. You've got people like Mobi willing to help as well as others. You have the communities support and aren't alone.

Don't let a critical comment or two dishearten you.

 

[pixeljunkie]

This has been depressing to watch. I am super-excited about this device and I am super-happy with mine. I think the "scene" is REALLY bad about shitting where they eat and they are their own worst enemy as this situation proves. So much bitching out one side of the mouth while claiming to "help" with the other. I hope Alex and Terraonion survive this storm, as there are plenty who will continue to support their endeavors. So frustrating to watch, I can't imagine having to deal with it.

 

[Rot]

You need a better plan in future... and a bigger team around you Alex...

Consider NG.com for example... The REALITY is... The Ng.com forum is Shawns and it relates to his business... aka. Neostore...

He has a team aka. the Mods that are unpaid... but provide muscle, tech... networking and other such things... basically free of charge...

This forum has been here for a LONG time... and the network is in place...

You will need the same eventually...

The issue YOU have is you are pushing yourself too hard... and I don't question your passion BUT... with the right team in place you could quite easily relax more... and gain the knowledge and support from a select few "reliable" guys....

xROTx

PS. Learn To let go of certain aspects and ask for more help...

ALSO... I find your need for customer support exemplary... but that also could be farmed out...

BUILD THAT TEAM... you will need it on the internet...

 

[Voultar]

No, it's not going to damage anything, even if you have the wrong cable. I've got a bunch of different cables here, some with resistor and caps, some with just caps. If you lack resistors in your cable the picture will be brighter (but you probably wouldn't even know). If the caps are missing it wont affect anything really, but the caps should be in the cable too (with regards to RGB connections). Composite tends to just pass through on all cables I've seen. People need to calm down a bit lol, one person mentions a cap issue or a problem with their setup and everyone starts thinking the end of the world is coming...

You've mentioned a few things that I would like to go through. A lot of people are interested in understanding this stuff, so I'll try to throw some data out for you all.

You mentioned the Amiga and a lot of the 30+ year old reversed caps. Well, yes. The Amiga systems did have a lot of screwy capacitors in the the audio section. Hell, the Amiga 4000's A3640 had all of its electro's installed the wrong way, almost. But you are comnparing two very different things here. Tantalum caps and Electrolytics are very different things with very different properties in their dielectrics. The question isn't "When will this destroy my shit?" the question should be "CAN this destroy my shit?"

Tantalum Capacitors that are polarized are designed to only operate under a forward voltage bias. Inverting the polarity of a Tantalum can produce nasty, high leakage currents and can possibly do some bad stuff. Don't take my word for it. Read Kemet's own white-paper on the matter. http://www.kemet.com/Lists/TechnicalArticles/Attachments/199/2014%20EDFA%20Tantalum%20Cap%20Failure%20Analysis%20Review%20by%20Javaid%20Qazi.pdf

Maybe I am blind here but I actually don't even see the problem. The datasheet indicates the +ve side should be nearest the connector. The photo shows C60's positive side (assuming its a tant) on the side nearest the connector.

Well, C60 is the capacitor that's responsible for AC coupling composite video for termination. But what does that mean, exactly?

The THS7374 is a rail to rail amplifier. You have two rails; 0V and 5V. There's no -ve rail here. The THS7374 outputs are DC biased above 0V. So when you AC couple (add that 220uF-330uF capacitor) the video line, you'll have a DC voltage across the capacitor, which is directed towards the 7374. Meaning, like this:



See the orientation of the polarity? Ti fucked up ONE diagram in their datasheet. But if you're building up a video circuit, you shouldn't need to reference the orientation of the AC coupling capacitors. I mean, yeah. TI fucked this part up, but that's something that's super easy to catch. That's like putting a car battery in backwards. Just look at the EVAL board, and look at all of the other application notes.

At any rate, what all of this means is that this capacitor (C60) is responsible for removing any DC offset from the transmission line. The reason I'm explaining this is because if you understand this, then you'll understand why inverting the polarity on a capacitor that's AC coupling your video line is a big no no and the orientation of the offset caps shouldn't even be in question..

Now, is this going to burn down your house? Probably not. Is it going to catch fire? More than likely not. Will composite video performance suffer? Sure it will, and that's very measurable. You're going to have a steady voltage error in your coupling component (capacitor). How much will your picture quality suffer? That's hard to say. The clamping element of your Television, Scaler, or Penis pump will be what determines how well the DC "drift" is handled. It may also impact how well TV's, BVM's and Scalers slice or "lock" onto the sync signal, if you're syncing on composite video. But it's not a huge god damned deal. Just reverse the thing, if you can. Or if you don't have any intention of using composite video, piss on it. It will do you zero harm. It's not the end of the world, boiz. Absolutely definitely isn't a reason to do a unit recall. That would be fucking ridiculous.



BTW, C-Video isn't .3vPP, that's C-Sync. C-Video is a nominal 1vPP.

 

[RAZO]

@neosd

Some of this might get lost in translation, but I'll try anyway. Yes, I've been critical of the RGB signal from/affected by the SSDS3 but I've been trying to do so in such a way that's provided as feedback. I'm a reasonable guy, and while I do not run a business myself I can understand the financial and mental challenges of doing so. Products for retro consoles are very niche and probably don't have widespread appeal to many people who don't frequent forums such as this one or other retro gaming oriented ones, and development efforts for such products are usually done by a much smaller team than mass marketed products. Due to this, I know it's not entirely abnormal for such products to potentially encounter issues in their initial releases. I'm not wailing and screaming demanding costly board revisions.

However, what I do ask is if you're selling a product as a business to be more business professional. I'm not trying to say "hey, just ignore all the stress you're getting from this". In that respect, take vacation for a week to recoup if it's affecting you that much. Mental well being is important. My focus is on the customer communication itself. I mean when I asked if the video issues I was seeing could be looked in again once the shipping crunch settles down, you basically said "No, it looks fine to us now. We're done with that". I mean, that's a rather poor response to a paying customer. I'm not saying you had to bend over backwards and promise the world to me, but just a simple "We'll check into this as time permits" would've come off much better, and/or opening a new thread for people with similar issues to report their findings to help you gather data for troubleshooting. I was always fine with fixing it myself but just needed someone to find out what the fix was.

As for the recently found reversed capacitor for composite video, I haven't switched mine around yet to see if that helps anything (I'm not using composite video for sync) but will probably see about that this evening or tomorrow. Yes, it's probably stressful for you that "oh no, we've shipped all these boards with this mistake" but you've already had people in here volunteering to fix it on customer boards. The ODE part is great so far and your customers want you to succeed so there will be other helpful products in the future. Just chill, work with your customers providing feedback and volunteering help, and keep communication professional.

@everyone else
I know quite a few of you have stated you're either completely fine with the video output, can't notice any issues, the issues are so minor to you that you're no bothered, etc.. That's fine if you're completely ok with it due to being less picky, are using equipment that doesn't make it visible, etc.. However, just because you're fine with it doesn't invalidate other paying customer's concerns. I'm mostly referring to people that have made comments along the line of "they should just stop worrying about the video quality and play the games".

Ohh, your one of those guys. Got it

 

[cr4zymanz0r]

Ohh, your one of those guys. Got it

One of those guys that can disagree, but still have a civil discussion and understand different circumstances for different people, and want to work towards a resolution? Yes, I am indeed one of those guys
*high five*

 

[Yodd]

Put your dicks away boys, this isn't the time for it.

 

[Rot]

Put your dicks away boys, this isn't the time for it.

My dick has been firmly zipped away for ages.... This is NG.com... play away lads...

I would mention tho... convo has been VERY civilised so far.... and TBH, this is how I would like it to stay...

Don't make me unleash teh "BEAST"...

xROTx

PS. ...FYI... I am referring to my enormous Asian Cawk...

 

[Neo NooNaN]

I'm going to liken this whole thing to being a foodie for a moment...

I go to restaurants all the time...I cook all the time and I eat other people's food that they've prepared. If there's something new I'm trying, I'm always critiquing it; deciding how much I like it, what I'd change to make it better. That thought process/approach does not mean that I enjoy it any less. I can tell my girl that she should have done something different to the risotto, but that doesn't take away from my enjoyment or my appreciation for what she did. It's because I'm into cooking and interested in doing things better each time. I do the same at restaurants. I'll taste each element first, then have a composite (see what I did there) bite of everything. My girl and I might decide they could have done something better, but we almost always enjoy everything, whether it's Taco Bell or a $400 dinner at a special place.

Not sure if you're following, but this is a parallel for me. I thoroughly am enjoying this and many other devices that have been released. We're hobbyists and that's kind of like being a foodie in the food world. Some Chef's can't take the criticism on Yelp, etc. and some relish in it as they are their own biggest critics. Talking about something that can be fixed or improved upon (for me at least) has ZERO to do with my appreciation for the device...whatever it is. This is just part of the hobby I suppose. For some, the actual hobby is not even playing the games, rather it's the tinkering. I'm somewhere in the middle, as I enjoy both.

I imagine many of you can relate to this and I'm sure there are parallels in other hobbies/interests. No one should get pissed off when finding an opportunity to improve upon or fix something. Short of a device or product being a complete failure or materially misrepresented, we should all just continue to discuss but keep it all in perspective.

I'll stop grandstanding...just thought this might resonate. (x-posted to shmups)

 

[Rot]

I'm going to liken this whole thing to being a foodie for a moment...

I go to restaurants all the time...I cook all the time and I eat other people's food that they've prepared. If there's something new I'm trying, I'm always critiquing it; deciding how much I like it, what I'd change to make it better. That thought process/approach does not mean that I enjoy it any less. I can tell my girl that she should have done something different to the risotto, but that doesn't take away from my enjoyment or my appreciation for what she did. It's because I'm into cooking and interested in doing things better each time. I do the same at restaurants. I'll taste each element first, then have a composite (see what I did there) bite of everything. My girl and I might decide they could have done something better, but we almost always enjoy everything, whether it's Taco Bell or a $400 dinner at a special place.

Not sure if you're following, but this is a parallel for me. I thoroughly am enjoying this and many other devices that have been released. We're hobbyists and that's kind of like being a foodie in the food world. Some Chef's can't take the criticism on Yelp, etc. and some relish in it as they are their own biggest critics. Talking about something that can be fixed or improved upon (for me at least) has ZERO to do with my appreciation for the device...whatever it is. This is just part of the hobby I suppose. For some, the actual hobby is not even playing the games, rather it's the tinkering. I'm somewhere in the middle, as I enjoy both.

I imagine many of you can relate to this and I'm sure there are parallels in other hobbies/interests. No one should get pissed off when finding an opportunity to improve upon or fix something. Short of a device or product being a complete failure or materially misrepresented, we should all just continue to discuss but keep it all in perspective.

I'll stop grandstanding...just thought this might resonate. (x-posted to shmups)

TL;DR...

Have you learnt NOTHING!

xROTx

PS. Why do you think Chaz and others are the best posters here... short and everyone knows what they're sayin'...