Neo Geo games you just don't rate

Tarma

Old Man
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lol, I can't believe I never consciously noticed the differences between the MS2 and MSX OSTs until now!

Even "Assault Theme" is remixed - the horn sections are better...

Did they ever do an official OST release for MSX? I know there was one for 2.
 

yagamikun

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lol, I can't believe I never consciously noticed the differences between the MS2 and MSX OSTs until now!

Even "Assault Theme" is remixed - the horn sections are better...

Did they ever do an official OST release for MSX? I know there was one for 2.
I don't think so. There was a modern LP release and the Metal Slug Complete OST Collection + Art Book on CD that was released a few years back. I believe that's it.

The collection set is pretty baller. I grabbed it just before it went out of print.
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Neo Alec

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The sound samples are pretty different in a lot of tunes. Specially drums.

It can even be more noticed if you you listen to the same tunes in MS3. Like the "Kiss in the Dark" tune. Way more polished game after game.
To me, MS3 was always obviously a new thing.

Anyway, this is the kind of gooby stuff I always spend too much time on in my youtube vids, so thanks for reminding me.
 

NeoSeeD

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And I remember the reviews were very hit and miss as well, with games like Nam 1975 and Magician Lord getting raves, but the likes of Top Players Golf and Puzzled perhaps scraping a mediocre score at best, but generally receiving unfavorable feedback.

I think Nam 1975 still holds up really well, the graphics are nowhere near as impressive as they were back in 1990/1, but I'll take this all day long over the likes of TPG, Puzzled or Magician Lord.
One of the interesting things about the Neo is how little they did to truly optimize or expand their hardware as time went on other than to just keep increasing their meg sizes. For example, while the Neo is obviously more powerful than a Mega Drive/Genesis, the tricks devs used to make impressive effects were amazing. The SNES has shit that the Neo couldn't dream of running because of helper chips and modes despite still being a less powerful console overall.

Once devs started getting more familiar with hardware and cart sizes expanded, the gap closed considerably in some cases. Look at Nam 75 vs Wild Guns, Magician Lord vs Ninja Warriors on SNES or Alien Solder on Genesis, Blue's Journey vs Sonic & Knuckles or Yoshi's Island or Donkey Kong Country. Not only do the Gen/Snes games play better in these cases, they compare well graphically.

Metal Slug 3, the Real Bout Series, and SpinMasters are fantastic though.
 

Neo Alec

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One of the interesting things about the Neo is how little they did to truly optimize or expand their hardware as time went on other than to just keep increasing their meg sizes. For example, while the Neo is obviously more powerful than a Mega Drive/Genesis, the tricks devs used to make impressive effects were amazing. The SNES has shit that the Neo couldn't dream of running because of helper chips and modes despite still being a less powerful console overall.

Once devs started getting more familiar with hardware and cart sizes expanded, the gap closed considerably in some cases. Look at Nam 75 vs Wild Guns, Magician Lord vs Ninja Warriors on SNES or Alien Solder on Genesis, Blue's Journey vs Sonic & Knuckles or Yoshi's Island or Donkey Kong Country. Not only do the Gen/Snes games play better in these cases, they compare well graphically.

Metal Slug 3, the Real Bout Series, and SpinMasters are fantastic though.
Hard disagree. As the programmers of SNK and others gained familiarity with the hardware, their bag of tricks expanded and they were able to milk old hardware into overtime. Familiarity with the hardware due to experience is documented in interviews.
 

Tarma

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One of the interesting things about the Neo is how little they did to truly optimize or expand their hardware as time went on other than to just keep increasing their meg sizes. For example, while the Neo is obviously more powerful than a Mega Drive/Genesis, the tricks devs used to make impressive effects were amazing. The SNES has shit that the Neo couldn't dream of running because of helper chips and modes despite still being a less powerful console overall.

Once devs started getting more familiar with hardware and cart sizes expanded, the gap closed considerably in some cases. Look at Nam 75 vs Wild Guns, Magician Lord vs Ninja Warriors on SNES or Alien Solder on Genesis, Blue's Journey vs Sonic & Knuckles or Yoshi's Island or Donkey Kong Country. Not only do the Gen/Snes games play better in these cases, they compare well graphically.

Metal Slug 3, the Real Bout Series, and SpinMasters are fantastic though.
Oh, totally agree. Some of the later SNES and MD games were graphically awesome, but I'm not sure it's totally fair to compare games like Star Fox and Virtua Racer with what the Neo did... personally I'm more than happy we did not see anyone try to put a polygon game on Neo hardware, and the closest anyone got to a 3D style fighter (Ragnagard) was bloody awful.

I think the evolution of the 2D graphics on the Neo was still hugely impressive. I remember the first time I saw KoF '97 in action and just marveling at the progress that had been made with 2D graphics and animation, and this was at a time when the likes of Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid were taking up a lot of my spare time. Metal Slug 3 is also a spectacular showcase of the machine's graphical prowess in shifting sprites.

Shame both MS3 and KoF '97 are flawed, although for me the former much more than the latter.
 

city41

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As the programmers of SNK and others gained familiarity with the hardware, their bag of tricks expanded and they were able to milk old hardware into overtime.
IMO it really didn't. At one point I thought of making a video showcasing neat tricks that Neo games do and I really couldn't find very many. Neo games mostly get by with brute force and a metric crap ton of graphic tiles.

I think the main advancement for Neo games came in the form of art, art direction, game design, and of course more ROM space. Things like the transition scenes in Last Blade, or the Satella News Network in KOF97 are really more about artists building those scenes than anything.

Rotation (like the Metal Slug's turret) is just done with more graphic tiles. Transparencies are done with sprite flickering and sadly that trick has not aged well (they did get better at it, Last Blade's flickering is more clever). Around 93 or so (I have the exact transition somewhere, but can't find it), almost all Neo games employed a double buffering trick by using two sprite pools. This allowed them to write to video ram more often, which probably allowed them to squeeze the system a bit more.

Puddle reflections (like the first stage of Metal Slug, or Italy stage in KOF94) are done with some clever sprite scaling. I really like this one, it's a neat little trick.

SVC Chaos and Blazing Star do some neat things with auto animations to pull off some impressive backgrounds (I made a video about this).

Super Sidekicks and Neo Turf Masters use the timer interrupt to pull off their perspective effect. But so does Riding Hero and just about every 2D racer ever made.

What else? I'd love to know of more. In the end what really allowed Neo games to be so impressive is how many graphic tiles they can use. Without bank switching and using a modern CHA board, the Neo Geo can work with 1.04 million sprite tiles. It's just a jaw dropping amount.

Its awful sound and limited colors aside, just giving the Genesis a healthy dose of graphic tiles enables it to come surprisingly close to the Neo. I think the RBS demo is a great example:
 

NeoSeeD

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Hard disagree. As the programmers of SNK and others gained familiarity with the hardware, their bag of tricks expanded and they were able to milk old hardware into overtime. Familiarity with the hardware due to experience is documented in interviews.
Got any examples of really impressive tricks? I know that as time went on, the Neo got more detailed animation and sprite work especially as meg count increased. On the Genesis, look at games like Toy Story, The Adventures of Batman & Robin that pull off tricks that pass for a 32 bit console despite not having any special kind of scaling and rotation hardware.

Look at the 1st boss in Sonic 3 where Robotnik appears to come from behind a semi transparent waterfall or Sonic 3D's mode 7ish special stages.
 

NeoSeeD

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IMO it really didn't. At one point I thought of making a video showcasing neat tricks that Neo games do and I really couldn't find very many. Neo games mostly get by with brute force and a metric crap ton of graphic tiles.

I think the main advancement for Neo games came in the form of art, art direction, game design, and of course more ROM space. Things like the transition scenes in Last Blade, or the Satella News Network in KOF97 are really more about artists building those scenes than anything.

Rotation (like the Metal Slug's turret) is just done with more graphic tiles. Transparencies are done with sprite flickering and sadly that trick has not aged well (they did get better at it, Last Blade's flickering is more clever). Around 93 or so (I have the exact transition somewhere, but can't find it), almost all Neo games employed a double buffering trick by using two sprite pools. This allowed them to write to video ram more often, which probably allowed them to squeeze the system a bit more.

Puddle reflections (like the first stage of Metal Slug, or Italy stage in KOF94) are done with some clever sprite scaling. I really like this one, it's a neat little trick.

SVC Chaos and Blazing Star do some neat things with auto animations to pull off some impressive backgrounds (I made a video about this).

Super Sidekicks and Neo Turf Masters use the timer interrupt to pull off their perspective effect. But so does Riding Hero and just about every 2D racer ever made.

What else? I'd love to know of more. In the end what really allowed Neo games to be so impressive is how many graphic tiles they can use. Without bank switching and using a modern CHA board, the Neo Geo can work with 1.04 million sprite tiles. It's just a jaw dropping amount.

Its awful sound and limited colors aside, just giving the Genesis a healthy dose of graphic tiles enables it to come surprisingly close to the Neo. I think the RBS demo is a great example:
I was going to bring this up, thanks. Have you seen the Sengoku 3 fighter?Or the KOF 98 demo? Damn impressive despite still being in alpha. Windjammers looks great as well despite the color limits. These days, you can stream CD quality sound on both the Gen and SNES with the right hardware.


KOF 98 Demo Mega Drive
 
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NeoSeeD

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Oh, totally agree. Some of the later SNES and MD games were graphically awesome, but I'm not sure it's totally fair to compare games like Star Fox and Virtua Racer with what the Neo did... personally I'm more than happy we did not see anyone try to put a polygon game on Neo hardware, and the closest anyone got to a 3D style fighter (Ragnagard) was bloody awful.

I think the evolution of the 2D graphics on the Neo was still hugely impressive. I remember the first time I saw KoF '97 in action and just marveling at the progress that had been made with 2D graphics and animation, and this was at a time when the likes of Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid were taking up a lot of my spare time. Metal Slug 3 is also a spectacular showcase of the machine's graphical prowess in shifting sprites.

Shame both MS3 and KoF '97 are flawed, although for me the former much more than the latter.
StarFox and Virtua Racing are some examples, but also look at something like Winter Heat that can pass for a early PS1 game. Gundam Wing looks closer to a CPS2 game than the actual Street Fighter Alpha 2 SNES port. It's more about creative maxing out of the hardware which I would have liked to see more of on the Neo. Spinmasters had some nice effects and Super Spy was a good first try at a first person game. I can just imagine what a companies like Treasure or Konami would have pulled off on the Neo given enough time.

One of the biggest shames of the Neo CD (in my opinion) is the missed opportunity to make amazing 2D and 2.5D experimental games with neat tricks that wouldn't have cost an arm and a leg in dev time or to mass produce. Imagine someone using the Sprite scaling abilities of the Neo to demake Resident Evil or something similar to it.
 

Neo Alec

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Got any examples of really impressive tricks? I know that as time went on, the Neo got more detailed animation and sprite work especially as meg count increased. On the Genesis, look at games like Toy Story, The Adventures of Batman & Robin that pull off tricks that pass for a 32 bit console despite not having any special kind of scaling and rotation hardware.

Look at the 1st boss in Sonic 3 where Robotnik appears to come from behind a semi transparent waterfall or Sonic 3D's mode 7ish special stages.
I was thinking in general that because the Neo lasted so long, it was forced to punch above its weight. Like Neo Geo fighters being compared to fighters on the CPS3 for example, But I do see you and @city41's point, it is mostly just memory and good use of art.

Perhaps it doesn't really matter. The reason the Genesis and SNES needed so many tricks is because they were forced to squeeze so much more out of so much less, while the Neo Geo had plenty of power to boot. It didn't have as much to make up for.
 

HeavyMachineGoob

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Super Sidekicks and Neo Turf Masters use the timer interrupt to pull off their perspective effect. But so does Riding Hero and just about every 2D racer ever made.

WinKawaks has a handy sorting of all the Neo games that use the interrupt timer / raster effects, because old emulators couldn't handle them.Screenshot_20240712-001022_Firefox_1.png
 

Neo Alec

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You're being generous. I would probably put it at 90% and that goes for every other system too.
Come on, I'm with Tak. Don't be so cynical. Neo Geo is famous for having a better ratio of quality to crap than most. Even the games that aren't perfect or aren't your cup of tea are still arguably worth checking out and have a lot of redeeming qualities.
 

theMot

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Come on, I'm with Tak. Don't be so cynical. Neo Geo is famous for having a better ratio of quality to crap than most. Even the games that aren't perfect or aren't your cup of tea are still arguably worth checking out and have a lot of redeeming qualities.
It was great back in the day. Don’t rate much of it now. On further evaluation i am rating it 92% tat.
 

city41

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I can see both sides. I totally agree overall the Neo has a quality library for its era. But it's also true a lot of these games just haven't aged well. I still play the Neo a lot, but I pretty much stick to about 6 games that have either withstood the test of time or I have massive nostalgia for.
 

yagamikun

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I can see both sides. I totally agree overall the Neo has a quality library for its era. But it's also true a lot of these games just haven't aged well. I still play the Neo a lot, but I pretty much stick to about 6 games that have either withstood the test of time or I have massive nostalgia for.
Agreed. I have my set of Neo games that are my absolute favorites - both games that have stood the test of time and those that may not hold up so well today but are personal nostalgic favorites. The Neo has a huge library for a piece of arcade hardware (the largest of any single piece of hardware to my knowledge), so not every game will be to everyone's taste even if it is well-like by others for one reason or another. And that's totally fair.
 

NeoSneth

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Wow, that sure is a bunch of disillusioned people.

I just hope some of you will sell their Neos and games to someone who can appreciate them more.

A fucking shame, man.

I suppose. it's not like I'm ever going to play Art of Fighting or World Heroes ever again.
Likewise, I would only play 1 or 2 of the KoF.
 

herb

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There's a solid like 15 games that are worth playing more than once imo
 

HeavyMachineGoob

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I was thinking in general that because the Neo lasted so long, it was forced to punch above its weight. Like Neo Geo fighters being compared to fighters on the CPS3 for example, But I do see you and @city41's point, it is mostly just memory and good use of art.

Perhaps it doesn't really matter. The reason the Genesis and SNES needed so many tricks is because they were forced to squeeze so much more out of so much less, while the Neo Geo had plenty of power to boot. It didn't have as much to make up for.

A big factor behind that is the Neo Geo is ultimately pigeon-holed and a bit of a one trick pony, in its hardware architecture and design.

The Neo Geo is designed to push a lot of pixels on the screen, with access to tons and tons of data. However, not only is the video hardware limited in the kinds of graphics rendering it can do (no bitmap graphics for instance), there is a huge separation between what the 68000 CPU can see and what gets fed through the Neo Geo graphics chipset. As far as I know, it is practically impossible for the Neo Geo to do any sort of CPU-driven graphics or software rendering, because the main CPU has no way of accessing graphics before they go to Video RAM or the graphics chipset itself. About the fanciest thing the Neo Geo can do is interrupt-timer tricks, like city41 mentioned.

The Genesis and SNES both use a unified cartridge bus design, where all engine code, graphics and sound have to go through the CPU at some point. Yes both have some sort of DMA function for graphics and/or sound, but always the option for software rendering or manipulation of graphics is always there. It is also possible to add more hardware onto the cartridge bus, like the Genesis SVP chip or the SNES SuperFX chip. For the Neo Geo, even if one had a connection between the PROG and CHA cartridge boards plus a processor or SOC to do graphics rendering, it's still hard to say for sure if the Neo Geo could do a Starfox or Doom type game. Plus, the Genesis and SNES have way more flexible video modes available to them, the Neo Geo is quite limited.

In short, the Genesis and SNES could punch above their weight because they had a more general-purpose hardware design that could do many things. The Neo Geo was purpose-built and was not a flexible hardware design at all.

If you guys need a better comparison, think of the Amiga vs the PC VGA video card. The Amiga was also a purpose-built system that was not very flexible. Planar graphics meant Doom-style games were extremely difficult to make. The Neo Geo is in a very similar situation.
 

Raguy

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It's a Osaka thing.
Take Capcom cps games and Irem M72 and M92 games, they concentrate on art, they don't care about special effects.
100 % pure juice of pixel art.
But on SNES games, Capcom and Irem have used special features of nintendo hardware as mode 7.

If mvs hardware gave the illusion to have good look in front of more powerful hardware ( Taito F3, Konami GX ), it's thanks to a great artistic sense.
 

Tarma

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I suppose it's sometimes easy to lose sight of the fact that the Neo Geo is an arcade platform, and essentially the AES console was a glorified supergun.

But interestingly, I bet if we looked back at the PlayStation's library, there's probably only a fraction of games that we'd individually consider still worthwhile.

I think the Dreamcast is particularly bad offender... I think I have less than 10 games for it, makes me wonder why I even bother. The rest of the library is either done better elsewhere (PS2, Neo Geo etc.) or isn't worth it.

If you take collecting (owning for the sake of owning) out of the equation and went on games you truly loved playing, irrespective of what others think, I bet we'd all end up with some fairly anorexic libraries.
 
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