Any other educators here? If so, I have a question for you...

norton9478

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I think that if my daughters get overloaded with homework, I'm going to tell them not to do it and just read a book or something more productive.

It isn't like they get failed in elementary school for not doing homework.
 

smokehouse

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I think that if my daughters get overloaded with homework, I'm going to tell them not to do it and just read a book or something more productive.

It isn't like they get failed in elementary school for not doing homework.

It didn't last long with us until we spoke with the teacher about it, like I said earlier, it was overwhelming, she literally had zero down time during the week and as you'd expect, she was burnt on it by 7pm. It was very difficult getting a 7 year old to sit and do more school work after having been at school all day.
 

Montatez

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I think that if my daughters get overloaded with homework, I'm going to tell them not to do it and just read a book or something more productive.

It isn't like they get failed in elementary school for not doing homework.

Agreed!

I guess thats something that has changed, in my day they held people back.
 

BLEAGH

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No one gets retained any more. They have small gaps that snowball into bigger and bigger gaps every year that they get pushed along. Its hard to teach on grade level when you have to fill in the last two years worth of background knowledge.
 

jro

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There's a general sense of entitlement in a lot of students at all levels now.

The vast majority of students I went to grad school with were motivated and worked hard, but fuck me it was pure torture on days when profs reviewed tests. Every third question someone would try to convince the prof that his/her wrong answer should have been counted right for whatever stupid reason. Basically like ook said, game the system and whine until they get their way.

Drove me insane. Skipped class on test review days whenever I could.
 

HDRchampion

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I think that if my daughters get overloaded with homework, I'm going to tell them not to do it and just read a book or something more productive.

It isn't like they get failed in elementary school for not doing homework.

The thing is that's part of their homework too. They have to read these AR books on a weekly basis & then they would get tested on them afterwards. If you dont pass the test, you dont get points for the book you read. You have to allocate a certain amount to get a passing grade. Then you have those stupid math problems where you have to explain it & break it down step by step. After you do that, they make you draw it. Then there was the thing called passport, where you have to memorize all these countries on a map. In my daughters orchestra, she actually has to video record herself practicing & then submitting it to the teacher for proof that she did it.

You get weekly grade reports online & you can see if you kid has any missing assignments or if she is absent or tardy....You can also see what grade she got on her homework & test scores..

I probably wouldn't have been such a slacker if my parents knew what the fuck i was doing or actually not doing in school. They set you up that you as a parent have to be involve & not just have the teachers do all the work. When your kids grades start slippin you can catch it before they get left behind.
 

norton9478

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Real talk...

Some here may know that I teach our local electrical apprenticeship and have been doing it since 2010.

3 years ago, we had a change at training director for a man 10 years my senior to one 11 years younger then me (he was 26 at the time). Ultimately, the doesn't completely matter, but I do feel there is a stark difference in teaching approach and philosophy that he brought with him.

I'll come right out and say that for the most part, our curriculum is pretty straight forward and I feel that with effort, most people can pass my class. Over the years, I've only had a few failing students and every one of them failed because they refused to put in the effort. The former training director was stern with these guys. With well over 400 applicants to the program yearly, and only 5 positions available, we don't take it lightly when an apprentice refuses to do the work. Program policy is that an apprentice is on probation for the duration of their first year, break a couple of specific rules and you're out of the program, no exceptions.

This is how it was, this is how it has always been, this is what I went through when I was first in.

2014 I had two horrible apprentices that simply refused to do the work, after months of effort on my part to bring them in line, I flunked them both. Before the new training director's hiring, this would have been met with the immediate dismissal of the two of them. This time around however, there was a tribunal where the two got to go speak in their defense...I was not invited. Without so much as a single question to me concerning their homework, tests grades, personal statements, and overall attitude towards the program, it was decided the fault fell on me as an instructor and that I had failed the two students.

After it was all said and done, I was informed of this decision and told that I would have to take the two of them on for a summer session to tutor them and give them failed tests until they could pass them. It took nearly two months of my summer to do this. Both treated me like a complete asshole the entire time.

Being blamed for their failure hit me hard. I have taught, and passed many people over my years, both in the classroom and in the field. Having my name drug through the mud by those two students, and the new training director allowing it, really got to me. (Ironically, both of them were "starved out" by trade contractors before they could graduate. I had no hand in it, they were both deemed to be the scumbags I knew they were.)

I'll say that I'm not the only one to receive this either, there are 8 other instructors and in the years since, they too have gone through the same thing. Failed students whining and being allowed to blame it on the teacher.

I'll admit that I haven't failed a student since...and I'm to the point now where I feel so ashamed about it that this may be my last year teaching. I want to help those to learn and succeed, but on the other hand I need the ability to allow failure for those that deserve it. If I cannot do this, I don't think I want to be a part of it anymore.

I recently caught wind that a person who I highly respect had abruptly quit his position as a professor at a local college. I happened to run into him last weekend and he very passionately told me that his reason for leaving was the very same thing that I went through. After decades of teaching, he was having his name, and reputation drug through the mud when he would fail a deserving student. He told me that time and time again, the blame for the student's failing would be placed on him, and the student would be brought to a passing grade. He told me that he finally had enough and walked away from the job.



So...I said I had a question for educators, and here it is: Are you seeing this? Is this happening to you? If so, how have you been dealing with it?

I'm very frustrated about this and although I'd like to keep teaching, I'm not sure how to proceed.

How much input did the people who selected the candidates have on the decision to give the slackers extra time to "catch up"?
 

smokehouse

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How much input did the people who selected the candidates have on the decision to give the slackers extra time to "catch up"?

Typically, the board only gets involved is the training director brings them into it...in the case of those two, they weren't.
 

xelement5x

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In my daughters orchestra, she actually has to video record herself practicing & then submitting it to the teacher for proof that she did it.

That's kinda creepy. When I did band we had time sheets where we would write down the amount we were practicing per day and our parents would sign off on it. I think it was weekly.
 

LoneSage

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smokes real talk, I know you've vented before about your job but this one really takes the cake. Is there nowhere else in the area you can job hop to, maybe even get a better salary in the process?

edit:

I think that if my daughters get overloaded with homework, I'm going to tell them not to do it and just read a book or something more productive.

It isn't like they get failed in elementary school for not doing homework.

NO ONE likes homework, but it does (theoretically!) promote good habits at a young age, like self-discipline (should I play a game first or get my homework out of the way? we all know how a kid would answer, but it's up to parents to get them to choose the right one) and responsibility.

Yes, no one will care what grade you got on a test when you were 8...but elementary school is where children are like shapeless blobs of clay, and it's up to the teacher and parents to help mold them so they can grow up into good teenagers and adults. Instilling good habits at a young age is imperative.

Doing homework is what separates the Scholars' List students from the C-average students.
 
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norton9478

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NO ONE likes homework, but it does (theoretically!) promote good habits at a young age, like self-discipline (should I play a game first or get my homework out of the way? we all know how a kid would answer, but it's up to parents to get them to choose the right one) and responsibility.

Yes, no one will care what grade you got on a test when you were 8...but elementary school is where children are like shapeless blobs of clay, and it's up to the teacher and parents to help mold them so they can grow up into good teenagers and adults. Instilling good habits at a young age is imperative.

Doing homework is what separates the Scholars' List students from the C-average students.

So if it is about developing structure and discipline, you could substitute Homework with something different (like reading).... Right????

And I don't think you need 2 hours of this time a day to develop those skills.
 
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StevenK

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smokes real talk, I know you've vented before about your job but this one really takes the cake. Is there nowhere else in the area you can job hop to, maybe even get a better salary in the process?

edit:



NO ONE likes homework, but it does (theoretically!) promote good habits at a young age, like self-discipline (should I play a game first or get my homework out of the way? we all know how a kid would answer, but it's up to parents to get them to choose the right one) and responsibility.

Yes, no one will care what grade you got on a test when you were 8...but elementary school is where children are like shapeless blobs of clay, and it's up to the teacher and parents to help mold them so they can grow up into good teenagers and adults. Instilling good habits at a young age is imperative.

Doing homework is what separates the Scholars' List students from the C-average students.

If you push too much too soon you'll put kids off learning for life. I remember primary (4-11) school being a joy every single day, no homework, no formal assessment (that we were aware of). Now, my son will be starting his fourth week of school on Monday. He's already got a homework diary and we're sitting down practicing handwriting for half an hour a night.

Less than a month in and he hates it. He's even faked illness already to try and get out of it, behaviour I associate with teenagers, not 4 year olds.

You say imperative, but imperative for what? Success, scholars' list etc etc are great words to hear, but happy trumps them all.
 

smokehouse

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smokes real talk, I know you've vented before about your job but this one really takes the cake. Is there nowhere else in the area you can job hop to, maybe even get a better salary in the process?

This is a secondary gig for me, this isn't what I consider my "real" job (not that I'm a big fan of that job either). This one provides some decent side cash...enough so that it's hard to give up.

I'm just trying to see if I can get my mojo back. I really like educating others but this one has me down...I keep getting that "why bother" feeling in my gut. One shit student is all it takes to bring the whole class down over the course of the year.

I want to continue doing it, I just need to figure out how to do it in a manner that I feel good about.
 

norton9478

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How does the apprenticeship program look at people that come out of college with a 4 liberal arts degree but decide that they want a "real" job that pays well?
 

smokehouse

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How does the apprenticeship program look at people that come out of college with a 4 liberal arts degree but decide that they want a "real" job that pays well?

Just like everyone else...I've had at least 3 students over the years with full 4 year degrees, possibly more. I typically do not ask, they'll mention it.
 

Morden

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Are you seeing this? Is this happening to you? If so, how have you been dealing with it? I'm very frustrated about this and although I'd like to keep teaching, I'm not sure how to proceed.

Sure, I am seeing this, every single day. I feel like nowadays this stems from some kind of "political correctness" and equality at all costs. You're no longer inadequate. You're just as smart and as talented as everyone else, but in a different way. This is basically the approach I'm seeing.

There are people who just don't have what it takes. It doesn't mean they're somehow worse than you and me, but not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, engineer or a lawyer. We need people who clean public toilets, sweep the streets and make our burgers. This is how the world works. Now, however, in the name of equality and correctness, we're working against this.

Failing students who don't give a shit can cost a teacher his or her job, because orders from above are clear. There are no bad students. This is my reality, and honestly, I stopped caring. I can only do so much, and the rest is up to the other party. Fuck their future, man. I just want smooth sailing. I'm not losing my mental health over this. I can't change this. If you fight against it, you're sure to lose your job, because this is how things are now. Good luck, future generations.
 

NeoSneth

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I think you are kinda fucked when some 26 yr old is the director. Obviously this guy is under-qualified.
These students are getting special treatment, and there's not much you can do unless you figure out those politics.
Sometimes you just have to seethe and collect a paycheck. That director probably has other enemies. You can just to source them out.
 

smokehouse

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I think you are kinda fucked when some 26 yr old is the director. Obviously this guy is under-qualified.
These students are getting special treatment, and there's not much you can do unless you figure out those politics.
Sometimes you just have to seethe and collect a paycheck. That director probably has other enemies. You can just to source them out.

Yeah...I really do not want to knock the guy, but he really doesn't "get it"...we're a trade school, not a college. Of the two other training directors I've worked with, they both were 40+ and had year of field experience. Our apprenticeship is 4800 hrs in the field, 480 in a classroom...and its like that for good reason. Books are fine, but they won't make you a good electrician, not by a long shot. I know some damn good field guys that were shit test takers. The other training directors understood that, the current one doesn't. He has a 4-year from Bradley Univ and is constantly referencing it, attempting to make the program model what he did in college, it's not working out all that well.
 

SML

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Definitely sounds like the director doesn't have sufficient experience and/or insight. Pretty common situation in education. You get administrators who haven't been in front of a classroom in years, or sometimes ever.

I might have more to say *after* I hear back about my tenure application.
 

smokehouse

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Definitely sounds like the director doesn't have sufficient experience and/or insight. Pretty common situation in education. You get administrators who haven't been in front of a classroom in years, or sometimes ever.

I might have more to say *after* I hear back about my tenure application.

I've long felt that you have to stay fresh if you're teaching a profession. Teaching academics is one thing, teaching a job is another. I tell my students this all of the time, I'm trying to teach them to be solid, productive workers based on what I learned from 13 years in the field and now 4 as a project manager. The books are fine, and the knowledge is important...but it won't make you a good worker.

This seems to be the issue everywhere...people putting too much stock in what one learns in class and not enough what you learn on whatever job you've chosen to do. When someone isn't good at what they do, too many will say that more reading is required vs more working or practical training.


*EDIT*
I've said it before...unlike some other situations, our trade has a way of sorting things out on its own. No matter how well/how terribly a student does in my class, if they cannot work, they'll land up unemployed. If you cannot make 4800 of on the job training, you won't get your journeyman card no matter how hard you complain.
 
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NeoSneth

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Note to Self - all you need to a 4 year degree to move up in electrician Union.
lol
 
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