Any other educators here? If so, I have a question for you...

smokehouse

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Real talk...

Some here may know that I teach our local electrical apprenticeship and have been doing it since 2010.

3 years ago, we had a change at training director for a man 10 years my senior to one 11 years younger then me (he was 26 at the time). Ultimately, the doesn't completely matter, but I do feel there is a stark difference in teaching approach and philosophy that he brought with him.

I'll come right out and say that for the most part, our curriculum is pretty straight forward and I feel that with effort, most people can pass my class. Over the years, I've only had a few failing students and every one of them failed because they refused to put in the effort. The former training director was stern with these guys. With well over 400 applicants to the program yearly, and only 5 positions available, we don't take it lightly when an apprentice refuses to do the work. Program policy is that an apprentice is on probation for the duration of their first year, break a couple of specific rules and you're out of the program, no exceptions.

This is how it was, this is how it has always been, this is what I went through when I was first in.

2014 I had two horrible apprentices that simply refused to do the work, after months of effort on my part to bring them in line, I flunked them both. Before the new training director's hiring, this would have been met with the immediate dismissal of the two of them. This time around however, there was a tribunal where the two got to go speak in their defense...I was not invited. Without so much as a single question to me concerning their homework, tests grades, personal statements, and overall attitude towards the program, it was decided the fault fell on me as an instructor and that I had failed the two students.

After it was all said and done, I was informed of this decision and told that I would have to take the two of them on for a summer session to tutor them and give them failed tests until they could pass them. It took nearly two months of my summer to do this. Both treated me like a complete asshole the entire time.

Being blamed for their failure hit me hard. I have taught, and passed many people over my years, both in the classroom and in the field. Having my name drug through the mud by those two students, and the new training director allowing it, really got to me. (Ironically, both of them were "starved out" by trade contractors before they could graduate. I had no hand in it, they were both deemed to be the scumbags I knew they were.)

I'll say that I'm not the only one to receive this either, there are 8 other instructors and in the years since, they too have gone through the same thing. Failed students whining and being allowed to blame it on the teacher.

I'll admit that I haven't failed a student since...and I'm to the point now where I feel so ashamed about it that this may be my last year teaching. I want to help those to learn and succeed, but on the other hand I need the ability to allow failure for those that deserve it. If I cannot do this, I don't think I want to be a part of it anymore.

I recently caught wind that a person who I highly respect had abruptly quit his position as a professor at a local college. I happened to run into him last weekend and he very passionately told me that his reason for leaving was the very same thing that I went through. After decades of teaching, he was having his name, and reputation drug through the mud when he would fail a deserving student. He told me that time and time again, the blame for the student's failing would be placed on him, and the student would be brought to a passing grade. He told me that he finally had enough and walked away from the job.



So...I said I had a question for educators, and here it is: Are you seeing this? Is this happening to you? If so, how have you been dealing with it?

I'm very frustrated about this and although I'd like to keep teaching, I'm not sure how to proceed.
 

Lach

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Self entitled little cunts need some 'sorting out' would you say? the summer tutoring was your chance to smash em but hey.
 

EllertMichael

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Yeah, in my line of work students not passing is due to "bad training." :thevt:
Said to me by the boss with tounge in cheek, but not beyond the delivery.

Difference being I don't have only 5 positions for 400 applicants, they should be much more strict considering those circumstances.

Nothing more defeating than spending all this time and energy teaching and developing someone only to then run it all through a paper shredder shortly after.
 

Montatez

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This is the price we pay. When you cater to one group they all want a slice of the pie.
 

ysselcneogeo

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Welcome to the new generation of everyone gets a free pass. My wife a teacher and deals with this shit all the time. Her solution is to keep going hire up in education. She dropped all classes other than AP and doesn't teach academic or honors anymore. She will eventually go to a private school. Everyone self entitled and lazy these days and if you call them out you're a racist, insensitive asshole. Or whatever other bs discrimination card they wanna play.
 

smokehouse

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Welcome to the new generation of everyone gets a free pass. My wife a teacher and deals with this shit all the time. Her solution is to keep going hire up in education. She dropped all classes other than AP and doesn't teach academic or honors anymore. She will eventually go to a private school. Everyone self entitled and lazy these days and if you call them out you're a racist, insensitive asshole. Or whatever other bs discrimination card they wanna play.

They're even doing it at my daughters school, she's in 4th grade. I just had to explain to her last week that her D she earned on a test she had failed to study for was her grade and that I wasn't going to allow her change her answers when she brought it home to alter later that evening. Her class allows them to take failed tests home, change answers, and earn a passing grade because of it...it's absurd.
 

Montatez

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They're even doing it at my daughters school, she's in 4th grade. I just had to explain to her last week that her D she earned on a test she had failed to study for was her grade and that I wasn't going to allow her change her answers when she brought it home to alter later that evening. Her class allows them to take failed tests home, change answers, and earn a passing grade because of it...it's absurd.

For fuck sake... What I get to look forward too...
 

ookitarepanda

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Am educator. Would love to respond to this, but I think I need a bit of time to think about it.

EDIT: Okay, here goes a snippet of what I'm thinking.

I've been teaching high school for 6 years now. I've worked in 3 school districts: the first as a long-term sub for one semester, the second had budget cuts after my first year, and the third is where I currently work.

When students aren't doing well, part of my responsibility is to have conversations with the students about it. Being proactive and documenting conversations has been a really big help in either motivating students to get to work or justifying the ending result. For me, that can frequently mean an extra e-mail to the parents to recap a conversation I had with the student and have them confirm it when they receive my message.

That being said, I have never had an administrator not get my back on grading. They have always been supportive at all of the schools I've been at. It is, without question, wrong of the administrators at your apprenticeship to have a sort of conversation like this without your input. You probably have plenty of evidence to submit, and they just showed you how much they give a shit about you by leaving you out of it. I think that a big portion of that is that your administrators probably want these kids' money and that is not something that public schools ever have to think about. It's not like if we fail a kid, we lose their monetary contribution to the school.

Other stray thoughts on the matter:

1) The students who argue grades tend to be kids who have been born and raised knowing how to game the system. They are rarely, if ever, students of color or students for whom English isn't their first language, unlike what ysselcneogeo seemed to imply. The kids who make a stink are raised by their parents to make a stink, and they tend to also suck at it compared to the teachers who are part of the system and know what kind of shit they're going to try.

2) I am currently at odds with the idea that you mentioned with getting a D on work. I believe that a grade should reflect how well a student understands the concepts of a course. If eventually they learn that within the span of the course, then they've met that objective and shouldn't necessarily be penalized. That is, if they legitimately put in work to learn from their mistakes. On the other hand, we need to teach that you rarely get second chances on work; if you're an aerospace engineer and your satellite blows up, you can't just revise your work and make everything okay. But how should that be reflected in the grade? Maybe we give students two grades: one for content knowledge and one for studentship overall? I'm just rambling here because I don't have a good answer at all.
 
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madman

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Her class allows them to take failed tests home, change answers, and earn a passing grade because of it...it's absurd.
That's fucked.

On the opposite end of the spectrum a friend sends his kids to some fagit catholic school, I don't know how old his son is, 2nd grade maybe? Fuck do I know. Anyway, he sends me a pic of the kid's test and the question was, "Write the sum. Explain how you solved the problem" and then a little box with 5+4. Kid writes "9" and his explanation as to how he solved it was "in my head." It got marked wrong. How the fuck else was he going to explain it? Drawing 5 sticks and then 4 more which is retard shit compared to just knowing the solution?
 
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ysselcneogeo

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Am educator. Would love to respond to this, but I think I need a bit of time to think about it.

EDIT: Okay, here goes a snippet of what I'm thinking.

I've been teaching high school for 6 years now. I've worked in 3 school districts: the first as a long-term sub for one semester, the second had budget cuts after my first year, and the third is where I currently work.

When students aren't doing well, part of my responsibility is to have conversations with the students about it. Being proactive and documenting conversations has been a really big help in either motivating students to get to work or justifying the ending result. For me, that can frequently mean an extra e-mail to the parents to recap a conversation I had with the student and have them confirm it when they receive my message.

That being said, I have never had an administrator not get my back on grading. They have always been supportive at all of the schools I've been at. It is, without question, wrong of the administrators at your apprenticeship to have a sort of conversation like this without your input. You probably have plenty of evidence to submit, and they just showed you how much they give a shit about you by leaving you out of it. I think that a big portion of that is that your administrators probably want these kids' money and that is not something that public schools ever have to think about. It's not like if we fail a kid, we lose their monetary contribution to the school.

Other stray thoughts on the matter:

1) The students who argue grades tend to be kids who have been born and raised knowing how to game the system. They are rarely, if ever, students of color or students for whom English isn't their first language, unlike what ysselcneogeo seemed to imply. The kids who make a stink are raised by their parents to make a stink, and they tend to also suck at it compared to the teachers who are part of the system and know what kind of shit they're going to try.

2) I am currently at odds with the idea that you mentioned with getting a D on work. I believe that a grade should reflect how well a student understands the concepts of a course. If eventually they learn that within the span of the course, then they've met that objective and shouldn't necessarily be penalized. That is, if they legitimately put in work to learn from their mistakes. On the other hand, we need to teach that you rarely get second chances on work; if you're an aerospace engineer and your satellite blows up, you can't just revise your work and make everything okay. But how should that be reflected in the grade? Maybe we give students two grades: one for content knowledge and one for studentship overall? I'm just rambling here because I don't have a good answer at all.
To your point I've surely seen what you're saying too. My wife tells me stories about parents covering for their kids asses all the time or complaining to her about higher grades. What it all comes down to is everyone wants a A without effort anymore. I'm finishing my college degree right now and its amazing. You get up to 5 attempted to re take almost all test, the answers are given to you after the first one. Most work is an A if you turn it in regardless of the quality of it. I've tested this before by literally trying to write the shittest responses possible and its still an A. I just feel like we're in a generation of lazy entitled good for nothings.
 

bubba966

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I'd say this is all because personal accountability no longer exists. It's always someone else's fault.

Now did all this become commonplace due to participation trophies (it's fine you failed, but you showed up so here's a trophy), speshul snowflakes, or other such shit I can't say. Probably a combo of a bunch of that shit has lead to this shit of "it's not my fault i failed, i demand to be passed/whatever anyway". It's fuckin horseshit.

This crap is so commonplace that damn near every new hire we get at work that's under say 25 or so feels that they don't have to do much anything at work other than show up and mope around. It's seriously frustrating to see these worthless fucks get paid the same as people that actually bust ass and get shit done. Or even worse to have to have them working for me and them not getting fuck all done and no one will tell them to get their ass in gear and do work after they say they don't need to listen to me...
 

norton9478

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If you have 400 apps for 5 apprenticeships, how did those 2 (of the 5) get selected?

They're even doing it at my daughters school, she's in 4th grade. I just had to explain to her last week that her D she earned on a test she had failed to study for was her grade and that I wasn't going to allow her change her answers when she brought it home to alter later that evening. Her class allows them to take failed tests home, change answers, and earn a passing grade because of it...it's absurd.

Not absurd.
She's in elementary school. Grades are unimportant.

Which way is more conducive to learning the material?
1. She gets a D, puts the test away and that is it.
2. She gets a D, goes back and figures out what she got wrong and learns the right answer.

I am going to go with 2.
 
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CrazyDean

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To your point I've surely seen what you're saying too. My wife tells me stories about parents covering for their kids asses all the time or complaining to her about higher grades. What it all comes down to is everyone wants a A without effort anymore. I'm finishing my college degree right now and its amazing. You get up to 5 attempted to re take almost all test, the answers are given to you after the first one. Most work is an A if you turn it in regardless of the quality of it. I've tested this before by literally trying to write the shittest responses possible and its still an A. I just feel like we're in a generation of lazy entitled good for nothings.

What school/degree? I just got my bachelor's this year and my classes were extremely difficult. I never had a chance to change any grade or get extra credit excect maybe for cheesy 101 classes. In a couple of my classes, nearly half of the undergraduates would need to take the class twice in order to pass.
 

LoneSage

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I accept bribe money wrapped in red envelopes, fancy dinners, and/or 'Is there a Mr. Gump, Mrs. Gump?' situation.
 

Lach

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This crap is so commonplace that damn near every new hire we get at work that's under say 25 or so feels that they don't have to do much anything at work other than show up and mope around. It's seriously frustrating to see these worthless fucks get paid the same as people that actually bust ass and get shit done. Or even worse to have to have them working for me and them not getting fuck all done and no one will tell them to get their ass in gear and do work after they say they don't need to listen to me...

Most people are retards so drink and yell at them some.
 

Montatez

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Not absurd.
She's in elementary school. Grades are unimportant.

Which way is more conducive to learning the material?
1. She gets a D, puts the test away and that is it.
2. She gets a D, goes back and figures out what she got wrong and learns the right answer.

I am going to go with 2.

You dont learn the material by just writing in the answers. All you have to do is write gibberish, fail it, take it home and write all the correct answers from the book.

What do you learn from that?

That is literally the simplest way to keep everyone dumb.

Why not just hand them a diploma instead....
 
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HDRchampion

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If you have 400 apps for 5 apprenticeships, how did those 2 (of the 5) get selected?



Not absurd.
She's in elementary school. Grades are unimportant.

Which way is more conducive to learning the material?
1. She gets a D, puts the test away and that is it.
2. She gets a D, goes back and figures out what she got wrong and learns the right answer.

I am going to go with 2.

Yeah i was going to respond the same way. Its elementary, the most important is if the student ends up understanding what they did wrong. Kids these days, they have so much homework its ridiculous. Teachers are also preparing kids for all these damn test that's required by the state now. My daughter would come home at 4, start doing homework until dinner time, eat then finish up her homework...After that, practice her violin then go to bed. This is not including days when she is doing her after school sports, taekwondo, dance lessons, & orchestra concert. Only free time was pretty much the weekend but even then she had tournaments to go to.

Unlike my ass, i come home watch fucking cartoons, then go outside & play with my friends until moms calls me for dinner...Then maybe have some homework i can finish in 30minutes. Not sure why you guys think kids have it easier then us back in the day.
 

LoneSage

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Yeah i was going to respond the same way. Its elementary, the most important is if the student ends up understanding what they did wrong. Kids these days, they have so much homework its ridiculous. Teachers are also preparing kids for all these damn test that's required by the state now. My daughter would come home at 4, start doing homework until dinner time, eat then finish up her homework...After that, practice her violin then go to bed. This is not including days when she is doing her after school sports, taekwondo, dance lessons, & orchestra concert. Only free time was pretty much the weekend but even then she had tournaments to go to.

I know you get shit on for your parenting style but seems to me you're setting up your kids for success in life. Better than coming home and watching cartoons or whatever.
 

Lach

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Unlike my ass, i come home watch fucking cartoons, then go outside & play with my friends until moms calls me for dinner...Then maybe have some homework i can finish in 30minutes. Not sure why you guys think kids have it easier then us back in the day.

Sounds like my schooling, fuck all has changed here by the way. This is the one thing I noticed when I went to stay with my wife's family in the US in 2009, her young step brother would come home and be studying for hours on end. I legitimately believe he would have spent more hours on homework in the month I was there than I ever did.
 

norton9478

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You dont learn the material by just writing in the answers. All you have to do is write gibberish, fail it, take it home and write all the correct answers from the book.

What do you learn from that?

That is literally the simplest way to keep everyone dumb.

Why not just hand them a diploma instead....

I will reiterate that she is a 4th grader. Diplomas are not part of the equation.
How well she learns from the experience depends on the subject, structure of the test and other factors.

On the flipside, how much does she learn by taking a passing test and throwing it in the garbage, never to be seen again?
 

norton9478

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Yeah i was going to respond the same way. Its elementary, the most important is if the student ends up understanding what they did wrong. Kids these days, they have so much homework its ridiculous. Teachers are also preparing kids for all these damn test that's required by the state now. My daughter would come home at 4, start doing homework until dinner time, eat then finish up her homework...After that, practice her violin then go to bed. This is not including days when she is doing her after school sports, taekwondo, dance lessons, & orchestra concert. Only free time was pretty much the weekend but even then she had tournaments to go to.

There are schools that are doing away with daily homework. The problem they run into is that parents complain about a lack of homework.
 

smokehouse

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This is spawning into a great conversation, there's some good replies here. A couple of note:

Other stray thoughts on the matter:

1) The students who argue grades tend to be kids who have been born and raised knowing how to game the system. They are rarely, if ever, students of color or students for whom English isn't their first language, unlike what ysselcneogeo seemed to imply. The kids who make a stink are raised by their parents to make a stink, and they tend to also suck at it compared to the teachers who are part of the system and know what kind of shit they're going to try.

2) I am currently at odds with the idea that you mentioned with getting a D on work. I believe that a grade should reflect how well a student understands the concepts of a course. If eventually they learn that within the span of the course, then they've met that objective and shouldn't necessarily be penalized. That is, if they legitimately put in work to learn from their mistakes. On the other hand, we need to teach that you rarely get second chances on work; if you're an aerospace engineer and your satellite blows up, you can't just revise your work and make everything okay. But how should that be reflected in the grade? Maybe we give students two grades: one for content knowledge and one for studentship overall? I'm just rambling here because I don't have a good answer at all.

I agree with what you said. As an educator, it is my job to work with everyone...as long as they are willing to put in the effort. I understand that not everyone has the same mental tools, and that some just take more time than others to absorb things. I like teaching, working with those that struggle is a challenge that I really enjoy, I'll never abandon someone because they struggle to grasp something as fast as others can.

Like you also said, it's the shitheads exploiting the system (isn't it always?). The ones that complain and cry foul are more than likely the ones refusing to do the work in the first place. I've never flunked a kid that puts in the effort.

Concerning my daughter's D, she just refused to do the work. She's a bright little girl, she often makes monthly honor roll and made yearly honor roll last year. This time, she was just lazy. She had a test on Monday and refused to put in the studying to prepare. I warned her many times and she didn't listen. She earned that D.

That's fucked.

On the opposite end of the spectrum a friend sends his kids to some fagit catholic school, I don't know how old his son is, 2nd grade maybe? Fuck do I know. Anyway, he sends me a pic of the kid's test and the question was, "Write the sum. Explain how you solved the problem" and then a little box with 5+4. Kid writes "9" and his explanation as to how he solved it was "in my head." It got marked wrong. How the fuck else was he going to explain it? Drawing 5 sticks and then 4 more which is retard shit compared to just knowing the solution?

Welcome to common-core math...I fucking hate it.

To your point I've surely seen what you're saying too. My wife tells me stories about parents covering for their kids asses all the time or complaining to her about higher grades. What it all comes down to is everyone wants a A without effort anymore. I'm finishing my college degree right now and its amazing. You get up to 5 attempted to re take almost all test, the answers are given to you after the first one. Most work is an A if you turn it in regardless of the quality of it. I've tested this before by literally trying to write the shittest responses possible and its still an A. I just feel like we're in a generation of lazy entitled good for nothings.

The problem is, these people then have to go on to the real world where there isn't 20 re-do's for their mistakes.

If you have 400 apps for 5 apprenticeships, how did those 2 (of the 5) get selected?



Not absurd.
She's in elementary school. Grades are unimportant.

Which way is more conducive to learning the material?
1. She gets a D, puts the test away and that is it.
2. She gets a D, goes back and figures out what she got wrong and learns the right answer.

I am going to go with 2.

I wish I had more hand in the selection process and I often wonder why some kids are allowed in. We've had some real assholes allowed in over the years, I don't understand it. It's a Union position, perhaps they're relatives of someone...hard telling.

Concerning your #2...we did review her D, for nearly an hour. Her and I went over the whole test, question by question, and reviewed it.I wanted her to know the curriculum...I just didn't want her to be bumped to a passing grade. I wrote her teacher telling her this. (BTW...not that it matters, but it was over detailed branches of the US gov...kind of heavy for a 9 year old).

Yeah i was going to respond the same way. Its elementary, the most important is if the student ends up understanding what they did wrong. Kids these days, they have so much homework its ridiculous. Teachers are also preparing kids for all these damn test that's required by the state now. My daughter would come home at 4, start doing homework until dinner time, eat then finish up her homework...After that, practice her violin then go to bed. This is not including days when she is doing her after school sports, taekwondo, dance lessons, & orchestra concert. Only free time was pretty much the weekend but even then she had tournaments to go to

We've had a few issues with this. My kid is 9, she's in 4th grade. She's literally been dragging home homework since Kindergarten. Her 2nd grade year was absurd, she would literally have hours of homework a night. With my picking her up at 4:30/5pm...and with her 8pm bedtime, our weeknights became pickup-dinner-shower-homework-bed. It got real old, and too much stress on a 7 year old. Apparently my wife and I weren't the only ones with a problem either. It didn't take long for the young teacher to stop shoving so much work home each night.




I'm enjoying hearing everyone's thoughts on this...
 
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Montatez

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I will reiterate that she is a 4th grader. Diplomas are not part of the equation.
How well she learns from the experience depends on the subject, structure of the test and other factors.

On the flipside, how much does she learn by taking a passing test and throwing it in the garbage, never to be seen again?

The diploma is sarcasm, buddy. But I mostly agree with the second part. The test is literally just to test your knowledge of the subject, we all know that, but to be graded on your knowledge is based on the individual and how they learn, another point we all already know, my point is not with the work or the grade but the lesson learned.

Humility is taught, and its a tough lesson.

Kids are suppose to run around play and have fun. Learn in school and relax after. A good balance is needed.
 
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