Americans Who Died in War Are ‘Losers’ and ‘Suckers’

Xavier

Slugmariner Captain
20 Year Member
Well it's been a few days and doesn't appear to be going away.

Here's my quick hot take in on it:

It seems like this article is being billed as something new with some ground breaking info. Really this is just a compilation of Trump's greatest hits.

Obviously he says what a lot of other people think or else he wouldn't have been elected President after roasting POWs and Gold Star families. In reality America is hot to send others off to war and die then when they get back say that the cause was unjustified and then diminish others service. It's what we've been doing for the last 70 years.

Then our duopoly political system takes turn using it or them to their advantage/weakness. In that regard people who fight for this country are suckers and pawns. Really Trump is just a product of his environment. He comes from a long line of draft dodgers and this is also how he's raised his own children.

Don Jr. In his own words (from the book triggered) comparing his family being in the WhiteHouse to the dead soldiers sacrifice in Arlington National Cemetary.

The full passage from the book:

"Meanwhile, it also took two months for me to realize the enormity of what my father had accomplished, and the weight of the job that he’d won. It was the day before the inauguration, and we were driving into Arlington National Cemetery, where he was to lay a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I rarely get emotional, if ever. I guess you’d call me hyper-rational, stoic.

Yet, as we drove past the rows of white grave markers, in the gravity of the moment, I had a deep sense of the importance of the presidency and a love of our country. I was never prouder of my father than when I watched as he stood before the tomb, his hand over his heart, while the Army bugler played 'Taps.'

"In that moment, I also thought of all the attacks we’d already suffered as a family, and about all the sacrifices we’d have to make to help my father succeed—voluntarily giving up a huge chunk of our business and all international deals to avoid the appearance that we were 'profiting off the office.'"

Spoiler:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ho-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/

The president has repeatedly disparaged the intelligence of service members, and asked that wounded veterans be kept out of military parades, multiple sources tell The Atlantic.

Jeffrey Goldberg September 3, 2020

When President Donald Trump canceled a visit to the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery near Paris in 2018, he blamed rain for the last-minute decision, saying that “the helicopter couldn’t fly” and that the Secret Service wouldn’t drive him there. Neither claim was true.

Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.

Belleau Wood is a consequential battle in American history, and the ground on which it was fought is venerated by the Marine Corps. America and its allies stopped the German advance toward Paris there in the spring of 1918. But Trump, on that same trip, asked aides, “Who were the good guys in this war?” He also said that he didn’t understand why the United States would intervene on the side of the Allies.

Trump’s understanding of concepts such as patriotism, service, and sacrifice has interested me since he expressed contempt for the war record of the late Senator John McCain, who spent more than five years as a prisoner of the North Vietnamese. “He’s not a war hero,” Trump said in 2015 while running for the Republican nomination for president. “I like people who weren’t captured.”

There was no precedent in American politics for the expression of this sort of contempt, but the performatively patriotic Trump did no damage to his candidacy by attacking McCain in this manner. Nor did he set his campaign back by attacking the parents of Humayun Khan, an Army captain who was killed in Iraq in 2004.

Trump remained fixated on McCain, one of the few prominent Republicans to continue criticizing him after he won the nomination. When McCain died, in August 2018, Trump told his senior staff, according to three sources with direct knowledge of this event, “We’re not going to support that loser’s funeral,” and he became furious, according to witnesses, when he saw flags lowered to half-staff. “What the fuck are we doing that for? Guy was a fucking loser,” the president told aides. Trump was not invited to McCain’s funeral. (These sources, and others quoted in this article, spoke on condition of anonymity. The White House did not return earlier calls for comment, but Alyssa Farah, a White House spokesperson, emailed me this statement shortly after this story was posted: “This report is false. President Trump holds the military in the highest regard. He’s demonstrated his commitment to them at every turn: delivering on his promise to give our troops a much needed pay raise, increasing military spending, signing critical veterans reforms, and supporting military spouses. This has no basis in fact.”)

Trump’s understanding of heroism has not evolved since he became president. According to sources with knowledge of the president’s views, he seems to genuinely not understand why Americans treat former prisoners of war with respect. Nor does he understand why pilots who are shot down in combat are honored by the military. On at least two occasions since becoming president, according to three sources with direct knowledge of his views, Trump referred to former President George H. W. Bush as a “loser” for being shot down by the Japanese as a Navy pilot in World War II. (Bush escaped capture, but eight other men shot down during the same mission were caught, tortured, and executed by Japanese soldiers.)

When lashing out at critics, Trump often reaches for illogical and corrosive insults, and members of the Bush family have publicly opposed him. But his cynicism about service and heroism extends even to the World War I dead buried outside Paris—people who were killed more than a quarter century before he was born. Trump finds the notion of military service difficult to understand, and the idea of volunteering to serve especially incomprehensible. (The president did not serve in the military; he received a medical deferment from the draft during the Vietnam War because of the alleged presence of bone spurs in his feet. In the 1990s, Trump said his efforts to avoid contracting sexually transmitted diseases constituted his “personal Vietnam.”)

On Memorial Day 2017, Trump visited Arlington National Cemetery, a short drive from the White House. He was accompanied on this visit by John Kelly, who was then the secretary of homeland security, and who would, a short time later, be named the White House chief of staff. The two men were set to visit Section 60, the 14-acre area of the cemetery that is the burial ground for those killed in America’s most recent wars. Kelly’s son Robert is buried in Section 60. A first lieutenant in the Marine Corps, Robert Kelly was killed in 2010 in Afghanistan. He was 29. Trump was meant, on this visit, to join John Kelly in paying respects at his son’s grave, and to comfort the families of other fallen service members. But according to sources with knowledge of this visit, Trump, while standing by Robert Kelly’s grave, turned directly to his father and said, “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?” Kelly (who declined to comment for this story) initially believed, people close to him said, that Trump was making a ham-handed reference to the selflessness of America’s all-volunteer force. But later he came to realize that Trump simply does not understand non-transactional life choices.

“He can’t fathom the idea of doing something for someone other than himself,” one of Kelly’s friends, a retired four-star general, told me. “He just thinks that anyone who does anything when there’s no direct personal gain to be had is a sucker. There’s no money in serving the nation.” Kelly’s friend went on to say, “Trump can’t imagine anyone else’s pain. That’s why he would say this to the father of a fallen marine on Memorial Day in the cemetery where he’s buried.”

I’ve asked numerous general officers over the past year for their analysis of Trump’s seeming contempt for military service. They offer a number of explanations. Some of his cynicism is rooted in frustration, they say. Trump, unlike previous presidents, tends to believe that the military, like other departments of the federal government, is beholden only to him, and not the Constitution. Many senior officers have expressed worry about Trump’s understanding of the rules governing the use of the armed forces. This issue came to a head in early June, during demonstrations in Washington, D.C., in response to police killings of Black people. James Mattis, the retired Marine general and former secretary of defense, lambasted Trump at the time for ordering law-enforcement officers to forcibly clear protesters from Lafayette Square, and for using soldiers as props: “When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution,” Mattis wrote. “Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.”

Another explanation is more quotidian, and aligns with a broader understanding of Trump’s material-focused worldview. The president believes that nothing is worth doing without the promise of monetary payback, and that talented people who don’t pursue riches are “losers.” (According to eyewitnesses, after a White House briefing given by the then-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Joe Dunford, Trump turned to aides and said, “That guy is smart. Why did he join the military?”)

Yet another, related, explanation concerns what appears to be Trump’s pathological fear of appearing to look like a “sucker” himself. His capacious definition of sucker includes those who lose their lives in service to their country, as well as those who are taken prisoner, or are wounded in battle. “He has a lot of fear,” one officer with firsthand knowledge of Trump’s views said. “He doesn’t see the heroism in fighting.” Several observers told me that Trump is deeply anxious about dying or being disfigured, and this worry manifests itself as disgust for those who have suffered. Trump recently claimed that he has received the bodies of slain service members “many, many” times, but in fact he has traveled to Dover Air Force Base, the transfer point for the remains of fallen service members, only four times since becoming president. In another incident, Trump falsely claimed that he had called “virtually all” of the families of service members who had died during his term, then began rush-shipping condolence letters when families said the president was not telling the truth.

Trump has been, for the duration of his presidency, fixated on staging military parades, but only of a certain sort. In a 2018 White House planning meeting for such an event, Trump asked his staff not to include wounded veterans, on grounds that spectators would feel uncomfortable in the presence of amputees. “Nobody wants to see that,” he said.
 
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Naika

Street Hoop Star
It's a bombshell article and really, it gets at the history of Trump taking a shit on ppl who volunteer for anything (it could be for the military, or to your local church / mosque, or even for a friend). Trump literally does not understand the meaning of a relationship that doesn't function without some sort of material gain.

I'm not the biggest fan of the American military but dear god, they do not deserve this.

I can't imagine what the many servicemen and women who did vote for him are thinking right now...
 

Xavier

Slugmariner Captain
20 Year Member
I can't imagine what the many servicemen and women who did vote for him are thinking right now...

Omm
I'd imagine they are thinking

Fake News!

That's the go to answer for anything unflattering about him.

Then they'll go to "look at he loves vets he passed the "Veterans Choice" bill" (which he didn't) "He was so distraught he called Melanie" (she was on the trip with him) or just repeat whatever else he says.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
I imagine a lot of them are talking about this

Except in states like WV or OK, where being a racist cunt is the law.
 

wyo

King of Spammers
10 Year Member
Jeffrey Goldberg is a renowned pro-war propagandist. He was perfectly happy making false claims to drum up support to invade Iraq after the 9/11 attacks. If people like him actually gave a shit about troops instead of scoring political points, maybe I would give a shit about his opinions on the subject. That being said, Trump's statements are bad, regardless of the context, so fuck both of them.
 

Heinz

Parteizeit
15 Year Member
He didn't show up at Gallipoli and that's understandable but when he decided it wasn't important to honour his own country's war dead... I don't think you really need much else to convince you that this guy ain't worth a dime let alone your fucking vote.
 

Xavier

Slugmariner Captain
20 Year Member
I imagine a lot of them are talking about this

Except in states like WV or OK, where being a racist cunt is the law.

There was a Military times poll from a few weeks ago (so before this story broke) that was pretty close to the national average giving Biden a close lead over him. Surprising since they usually vote staunchly Republican.

Really who cares? They only make up .005 or something of the population and I'm sure since many of them vote absentee and it would only be tallied last in an extremely close race.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
There was a Military times poll from a few weeks ago (so before this story broke) that was pretty close to the national average giving Biden a close lead over him. Surprising since they usually vote staunchly Republican.

Really who cares? They only make up .005 or something of the population and I'm sure since many of them vote absentee and it would only be tallied last in an extremely close race.

I have seen some very decent vets who carry some very stupid political opinions because they have to for professional military, and post military career advancement. It would be nice to see eye to eye politically with some of those dudes. 4 years ago that wasn't the case, but it feels like we may reach that inflection point soon.
 

lithy

Chat rnoderator
20 Year Member
Jeffrey Goldberg is a renowned pro-war propagandist. He was perfectly happy making false claims to drum up support to invade Iraq after the 9/11 attacks. If people like him actually gave a shit about troops instead of scoring political points, maybe I would give a shit about his opinions on the subject. That being said, Trump's statements are bad, regardless of the context, so fuck both of them.

Political establishment probably upset that Trump hasn't started any new wars for poor, dumb bastards to die for their country.

Trump's not totally wrong in any case. What has anyone that has died wearing a US military uniform actually died for after say 1945?
 

Burning Fight!!

NIS America fan & Rent Free tenant
10 Year Member
Political establishment probably upset that Trump hasn't started any new wars for poor, dumb bastards to die for their country.

Trump's not totally wrong in any case. What has anyone that has died wearing a US military uniform actually died for after say 1945?

North Korea not being just 'Korea' after 1953 is a pretty good, albeit not perfect, result from the US military. I'm sure people will be able to think of many other examples though.
 

lithy

Chat rnoderator
20 Year Member
North Korea not being just 'Korea' after 1953 is a pretty good, albeit not perfect, result from the US military. I'm sure people will be able to think of many other examples though.

For some Koreans maybe. For us, it is so far from perfect that I'd say it is in fact not really good at all and may in fact be quite bad.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
For some Koreans maybe. For us, it is so far from perfect that I'd say it is in fact not really good at all and may in fact be quite bad.

You mean we shouldn’t have stopped the North Koreans from trying to take over the entire Korean Peninsula!
 

lithy

Chat rnoderator
20 Year Member
You mean we shouldn’t have stopped the North Koreans from trying to take over the entire Korean Peninsula!

It isn't like South Korea was a beacon of democracy after we 'saved' it anyway.

P.S. I'm loving the irony that the best case argument that American servicemen died for a just cause involves the Korean War, a 70 year old conflict, a war that started a mere 5 years after my original cut off date, and the youngest of the vets would have to be 80+ at this point.
 

oliverclaude

General Morden's Aide
Jeffrey Goldberg is a renowned pro-war propagandist. He was perfectly happy making false claims to drum up support to invade Iraq after the 9/11 attacks. If people like him actually gave a shit about troops instead of scoring political points, maybe I would give a shit about his opinions on the subject.

This article, with its anonymous "sources" and, as you aptly named it, pro-war propaganda, is on Trump level hypocrisy. It forgets to mention the decisive fact, which, in my opinion, is responsible for Trump's views on the military: At age 13, he was enrolled in the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.

According to the British documentary Trump: An American Dream from 2017, up to the age of 13 Trump was a kid like any other, he had his neighborhood, friends and made a lot of teenage shit you usually do during that age. It all abruptly ended, when Fred Trump, his father, sent him to the above-named Military Academy. People close to Trump relate, that this school was like a Kubrick-style Parris Island, where Donald became about the same cold and cynic bastard as Kubrick depicted Joker in "Full Metal Jacket" – except this time with a shit load of money and Roy Cohn as his attorney.

Anyway, if Trump's now pissing on the profession of soldiering, war veterans and anything else related to what the military is used to value so much, then the military can thank themselves for that. They created the bulk of what Trump is now: a cold, calculated and often cynic bastard, who consequently pisses on all values.

Political establishment probably upset that Trump hasn't started any new wars for poor, dumb bastards to die for their country.

It's hard to argue with that, considering how Goldberg's article white-knights the Bush family. I can already see it coming, a decade or so after Trump's gone, another Goldberg will turn up to white-knight Donald.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
At least North Korea was nominally a democratic republic.

yeah, containing communism wasn't good for the countries we tried to protect. Those people wanted to work in labor camps until they died. Just ask all the 80+ million non-Han Chinese and Russians who Mao and Stalin worked until their glorious deaths.
 

lithy

Chat rnoderator
20 Year Member
yeah, containing communism wasn't good for the countries we tried to protect. Those people wanted to work in labor camps until they died. Just ask all the 80+ million non-Han Chinese and Russians who Mao and Stalin worked until their glorious deaths.

Oh c'mon, that was the best joke from norton in his typical posting style that I can remember.
 

Lagduf

2>X
20 Year Member
Call me old fashioned, a hawk, a statist, an imperialist, a racist, and a warmonger but speaking of our military’s dead in such a fashion is reprehensible and entirely repugnant. The man lacks dignity and decency.

@norton - big fan of that clip. I have the book, I need to sit down and read it.
 

Xavier

Slugmariner Captain
20 Year Member
Call me old fashioned, a hawk, a statist, an imperialist, a racist, and a warmonger but speaking of our military’s dead in such a fashion is reprehensible and entirely repugnant. The man lacks dignity and decency.

@norton - big fan of that clip. I have the book, I need to sit down and read it.

I want everybody to be honest in this thread and be able to express themselves freely as they see fit. So I'm trying not going to argue with anyone directly.

I'm a hawk. The military industrial complex is a business. We do and can sell these goods and services for cash but more than that it gains us influence and other things we want and need.

In this world it seems cut and dry you can be either the hunter or the prey. If forced to choose for your country to be a leader or a follower I choose leader and don't want to apologize for it. One would hope we use this hegemony for good, the advancement of civilization and humanity. The ideals of freedom liberty and justice. Hopefully when you fall short in these matters at home or abroad it shocks you. Exploitation should disgust you.

Through this system the world is now flat. Ideas, goods and services flow easily. The hope should be that it creates enough for everybody and that all can live up to the destiny and potential they so wish.

Speaking of Korea, if you could compare a snapshot of 80's South Korea to today. Now compare the North to the South. The Koreans did this work themselves so you can't take ownership of that, but I don't think you should feel ashamed about the influence you've pedaled to them as western countries. Maybe even a small amount of pride could be acceptable.
 
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