Not sure where else to put this. Video on the similarities of groups

Lagduf

If I change my Custom, Rank. I lose The 15YR Tag.,
That's fair, but I don't think that adds any weight to the "both sides" argument. Not that I'm saying you're mincing words, but what if it's rephrased as "One side has people who believe in evil ideas and the other doesn't?"

I think we’re actually in agreement.

When one side is waving the confederate flag and wearing a camp Auschwitz shirt...yeah. That’s not the people I’m going to associate with.

I don’t really know what my point was in replying to Lonesage.

Maybe it was that we should stop calling people Nazis because it diminishes what the actual Nazis did, and it’s just a toxic, emotion-laden label.

These are white nationalists who would, along with their religious beliefs, functionally attempt to create an apartheid style government in all but name in America.

That’s a lot scarier than calling them Nazis.

Damn, I guess Poppy was right :(
 

lithy

hønefuld
I agree with that, but that's why I qualified my statement with "inherently." Correct me if I'm wrong, but a self-described communist who might attend a BLM protest would likely have an ideology of equality that empowers the poor and ensures everyone has a higher base level standard of living using the violence of the state.

Your presuppositions and excuses of the supposed benign naivety of a 'Communist' betrays your own biases when with your other hand you paint with quite the broad brush to ensure anyone to the right of you falls under the 'racist' blanket.
 

Lagduf

If I change my Custom, Rank. I lose The 15YR Tag.,
I forgot to add...I’m not associating with communists either :emb:

I need to go in to the wilderness and never return.
 

fake

King of Typists
Your presuppositions and excuses of the supposed benign naivety of a 'Communist' betrays your own biases when with your other hand you paint with quite the broad brush to ensure anyone to the right of you falls under the 'racist' blanket.

What? Yeah, up to now, communism usually ends in oppression. But that's not inherent in communism. Thomas Sankara, one of the most positive leaders in modern Africa? Communist. Vaccinated millions against polio. Brought the literacy rate up from 15% to 75%. Appointed females to leadership positions and outlawed female genital mutilation and forced marriages. I could go on. Point is, there is nothing in the definition of communism, as far as I know, that means it is always attached to violent oppression.

Communism = bad? Yeah, usually. But it's not inherently bad. Do you really think that the supposed communists at BLM protests are advocating for the violent oppression of Americans? Do you think these people are actually fascists? But yeah, please tell me how my aunt who voted for Trump to keep the Mexicans out isn't a racist.

Regarding the use of "nazi," I get that it can dilute the meaning for real German Nazis. And it's usually better to refer to what we're seeing right now as white supremacists, etc. But I do think it's important to point out that this is how you get nazis. How many survivors have said, "This was step one of what led to the empowerment of the Nazi party?" If people really mean "never again," we have to squash this shit as soon as it shows itself. The hard part is that it's been here the whole time, apparently. Trump et al just made it socially acceptable to voice white supremacist and racist beliefs.
 

Lagduf

If I change my Custom, Rank. I lose The 15YR Tag.,
There is a case to be made that a lot of this just has to do with the poor state of public discourse in America. We’ve tweeted* ourselves to death.

*twatted?

Does true communism recognize the rights of the group or community as a whole over the rights of the individual?
 

fake

King of Typists
Does true communism recognize the rights of the group or community as a whole over the rights of the individual?

That might be part of what I'm getting at. Are these so-called communists at protests "true" communists?
 

lithy

hønefuld
I feel like responding to this any further will just devolve into me arguing that there are no absolute moral goods or evils.

Shall we continue?
 

Tripredacus

赤裸裸的汽車&#
Regarding the use of "nazi," I get that it can dilute the meaning for real German Nazis. And it's usually better to refer to what we're seeing right now as white supremacists, etc. But I do think it's important to point out that this is how you get nazis. How many survivors have said, "This was step one of what led to the empowerment of the Nazi party?" If people really mean "never again," we have to squash this shit as soon as it shows itself. The hard part is that it's been here the whole time, apparently. Trump et al just made it socially acceptable to voice white supremacist and racist beliefs.

Neo-nazis have been larping as actual Nazis for decades, and we can thank the woke internet crowd for accepting these fake Nazis as real Nazis and to give recognition not only to them, but to their symbols. To put it bluntly, instead of mostly ignoring their presense, they were given recognition. None of these people were any real threat to the country until they were first widely recognized, then marginalized in the public space.
 

Lagduf

If I change my Custom, Rank. I lose The 15YR Tag.,
I feel like responding to this any further will just devolve into me arguing that there are no absolute moral goods or evils.

Shall we continue?

Using value statements are what got us in to this thread in the first place.

We can talk about these “evil” people in a more meaningful context: the capital rioters violated the rights of individuals, damaged property, and disrupted the democratic process.

White nationalists seeks to deprive individuals of their rights based on an arbitrary standard: the amount of pigment in one’s skin.

Etc.
 

lithy

hønefuld
Neo-nazis have been larping as actual Nazis for decades, and we can thank the woke internet crowd for accepting these fake Nazis as real Nazis and to give recognition not only to them, but to their symbols. To put it bluntly, instead of mostly ignoring their presense, they were given recognition. None of these people were any real threat to the country until they were first widely recognized, then marginalized in the public space.

It's like responding to LoneSage's War Room threads.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
Just wondering....

Have communists/marxists ever taken over a[n actual] democratic republic?
 
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SouthtownKid

There are four lights
Does true communism recognize the rights of the group or community as a whole over the rights of the individual?
Yes. That's almost the entire basic premise. That's partially why in China, what we know as "human rights" are instead referred to as "Western rights". They completely reject the idea of "rights" for individuals existing at all, much less think of them as self evident.
 

Xavier

J. Maximum Fan Club President
Tito was a benevolent dictator.

Under his rule his communist socialist country thrived and even did so for awhile after his death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

So when you hear an ideologue try to argue that socialism has never worked there's an example.

They are asking you to name an example of something that will never exist. Every empire ever has fallen and they all will incontinuity.

Human nature makes collective ideal based societies an impossibility. Someone always wants to be in charge. People always want more than what everyone else has and want to hold others down. Once a person has power it's very difficult to take it away from them they'll do anything they can to keep it.
 

SouthtownKid

There are four lights
Tito was a benevolent dictator.

Under his rule his communist socialist country thrived and even did so for awhile after his death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

So when you hear an ideologue try to argue that socialism has never worked there's an example.

They are asking you to name an example of something that will never exist. Every empire ever has fallen and they all will incontinuity.

Human nature makes collective ideal based societies an impossibility. Someone always wants to be in charge. People always want more than what everyone else has and want to hold others down. Once a person has power it's very difficult to take it away from them they'll do anything they can to keep it.
A lot of times, they have to keep it because if they ever loosen their grip in the slightest, they'll be killed instantly.
 

LoneSage

A Broken Man
Yes. That's almost the entire basic premise. That's partially why in China, what we know as "human rights" are instead referred to as "Western rights". They completely reject the idea of "rights" for individuals existing at all, much less think of them as self evident.

Hahah. Well, they sure do like to talk about the 西方 as a whole, but people here just say 人权。

When the US was getting buttfucked by covid last summer, a popular online comic said “隔离,人权没了;不隔离,人全没了”.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
Solid Lonesag post. I'm so sick of the both sides argument. There's some truth to the "political horseshoe" or whatever you want to call it, but like Sag said...Nazis.

The classic political horseshoe rubric is antiquated.

The modern political divide is autocracy vs democracy.
 

SouthtownKid

There are four lights
a popular online comic said “隔离,人权没了;不隔离,人全没了”.
Yeah, I can't put it any better than that. I don't know that it is a huge laugh, though.


The classic political horseshoe rubric is antiquated.

The modern political divide is autocracy vs democracy.
Do people not understand it's never been a horseshoe? It's a ring. What's worse is that most people don't even think of it as a horseshoe but as a line, with far left and far right being opposites.
 

fake

King of Typists
Do people not understand it's never been a horseshoe? It's a ring. What's worse is that most people don't even think of it as a horseshoe but as a line, with far left and far right being opposites.

Sphere.jpg
 

Lagduf

If I change my Custom, Rank. I lose The 15YR Tag.,
Yes. That's almost the entire basic premise. That's partially why in China, what we know as "human rights" are instead referred to as "Western rights". They completely reject the idea of "rights" for individuals existing at all, much less think of them as self evident.

If it wasn’t clear my implication was that the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few (the individual) might be described as inherently evil.

Sorry, Spock.
 

Lagduf

If I change my Custom, Rank. I lose The 15YR Tag.,
Decrying things as good and evil isn’t particularly useful, I think.

Technology will save us if we don’t use it to destroy ourselves first.
 

LoneSage

A Broken Man
If it wasn’t clear my implication was that the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few (the individual) might be described as inherently evil.

Sorry, Spock.

Nah bro. Killing ten homeless to save one doctor is always the right choice.
 
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