Not sure where else to put this. Video on the similarities of groups

[smokehouse]

Much of this is what I've been talking about for some time now.



It's a pretty quick watch, if you have 15 min to spare.

It's interesting to hear this man's observations on BLM, The Proud Boys, and the amalgam of groups that is ANTIFA. All have their bad sides, but there's so much more common ground that most think there is. None of them are completely "evil" with the other being the voice of righteousness, its so much more complicated than that.

While there's always going to be people in every group that wants to alienate other people, I don't think it represents the whole. There are so many people that feel the current political system has failed us all, and are expressing it differently despite having the same feelings. I honestly feel that those in power fear unity and do their best to turn these groups against each other.

The attack last week was an unorganized clusterfuck with no real direction, leadership, or plan. I've seen the same thing out of the events of this year, they've mostly been unorganized riots vs planned attacks. Imagine what would happen if all these people got together and unified.

 

[LoneSage]

Huge numbers of our population believe in a complete alternate reality. Alternate facts as it were. But just as intensely as I believe they are deluded, they think I am the one who is deluded. Maybe I am. So how can I be confident in my perception? It can be quite difficult. But, I have found that in times of political confusion, particularly when emotions are running high and creating tunnel vision, the presence of Nazis can be an extremely helpful indicator.

If I am attending a local demonstration or event and I see Nazis - neo-Nazis, casual Nazis, master race Nazis, or the latest-whatever-uber-mythology-Nazis, I figure out which side they are on. If they are on my side of the demonstration? I am on the wrong side. It is tough to argue moral equivalence when I am standing next to a Nazi.

Look to my right. Is there a guy wearing a 6MWE (6 million wasn’t enough) t-shirt? I am on the wrong side.

Look to my left. If that guy is wearing a Camp Auschwitz t-shirt? Wrong side.

Are speakers being applauded for referring to things that Hitler got right? Wrong side.

Team-spirit face paint and hat with animal horns? This is actually an unclear indicator that could mean anything, but safest to keep my distance from that guy anyway, even at a football game.

However, I can always, always, always rely on the presence of Nazis as a guiding light through a fog of disinformation. Some things are relative, and politics can absolutely have its opposing sides and grey areas, where it appears 'both sides are the same'. So, just look for the Nazis, and make your own decisions.

 

[fake]

Solid Lonesag post. I'm so sick of the both sides argument. There's some truth to the "political horseshoe" or whatever you want to call it, but like Sag said...Nazis.

 

[SML]

I feel like this does a pretty good job of capturing the bleakness and despair that drove a lot of people into Trump's arms. The late Joe Bageant's Deer Hunting with Jesus (2007) does a pretty good job, too. The roots of that despair haven't gone anywhere.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why anyone would want to unify with retired tactical dads and based channers.

 

[smokehouse]

Solid Lonesag post. I'm so sick of the both sides argument. There's some truth to the "political horseshoe" or whatever you want to call it, but like Sag said...Nazis.

I was typing to come up with a reply that won't simply get a reply of "NAZI!!!!" shoved back in my face. Still not sure if this will work or not...

You two are displaying exactly what that video is addressing, the unfair typecasting of a massive group of people based on the few. That's no different than accusing everyone at last summers protests/riots as communists or socialists.

Are there going to be white supremacist's or Nazis at right wing protests? Absolutely...where else would they show up to support? A BLM protest?

Does it make them all a white supremacist? Absolutely not.

So many Americans understand that none of this passes the smell test. They understand what politicians have done to this country and its citizens. The problem is that they often take out their anger on the wrong people, and even worse, these "sides" have formed making them hate each other. Save the far extremists of all of these groups, so many of these people have more in common than they realize.

They're letting politicians and the media manipulate them into viewing the other side as the enemy vs who they all should be looking at.

 

[smokehouse]

I feel like this does a pretty good job of capturing the bleakness and despair that drove a lot of people into Trump's arms. The late Joe Bageant's Deer Hunting with Jesus (2007) does a pretty good job, too. The roots of that despair haven't gone anywhere.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why anyone would want to unify with retired tactical dads and based channers.

I'll have to watch that.

Where I'm not sure what a "based channer" is...but why wouldn't someone want to unify with "retired tactical dads"...what kind of prejudice is that?

Unity doesn't mean 100% agreement with each other, its finding common ground and I honestly believe that many of us have that.

People need to stop hammering each other for stupid shit and realize that there is a unified front oppressing us all...until that happens, they're going to continue to do what they're doing.

 

[ratson]

Sage is right, 100%.

 

[Lagduf]

I was typing to come up with a reply that won't simply get a reply of "NAZI!!!!" shoved back in my face. Still not sure if this will work or not...

You two are displaying exactly what that video is addressing, the unfair typecasting of a massive group of people based on the few. That's no different than accusing everyone at last summers protests/riots as communists or socialists.

Are there going to be white supremacist's or Nazis at right wing protests? Absolutely...where else would they show up to support? A BLM protest?

Does it make them all a white supremacist? Absolutely not.

So many Americans understand that none of this passes the smell test. They understand what politicians have done to this country and its citizens. The problem is that they often take out their anger on the wrong people, and even worse, these "sides" have formed making them hate each other. Save the far extremists of all of these groups, so many of these people have more in common than they realize.

They're letting politicians and the media manipulate them into viewing the other side as the enemy vs who they all should be looking at.

The fundamental problem with Trump and his supporters is that they have not worked to remove the white supremacist elements (or groups with other “problematic” viewpoints) from their organization.

He has actively courted these “fringe” elements and given them his tacit support.

It is not unfair to say the Trump organization is comprised of, in a large part (or at a minimum a non-insignificant portion of) white supremacists, neo-Nazis, anti-semites, and xenophobes.

Again, all of these groups have his tacit approval.

The Trump organization (and the Republican Party in general) have done nothing to root these elements out because, again, they were welcomed in.

Donald Trump is completely disingenuous.

Republicans are not Nazis and Racists as a whole but they let those elements in.

 

[Lagduf]

Let me put it like this:

The mob that stormed the Capitol is not representative of the Republican Party as a whole.

The mob was comprised of of groups of people with certain beliefs that Trump, and by extension, the Republican Party allowed to join their organization and in many cases were welcomed with open arms.

What does that tell you about Trump and the Republican organization?

One could argue Trump has held the Republican Party (and America in general) hostage for the past four years.

But that speaks more to lack of “spine” of elected Republicans. (And Democrats, too)

How many politicians tied their entire political career, and political persona to Trump?

 

[LoneSage]

I'll have to watch that.

Where I'm not sure what a "based channer" is...but why wouldn't someone want to unify with "retired tactical dads"...what kind of prejudice is that?

Unity doesn't mean 100% agreement with each other, its finding common ground and I honestly believe that many of us have that.

People need to stop hammering each other for stupid shit and realize that there is a unified front oppressing us all...until that happens, they're going to continue to do what they're doing.

America is still running on Democracy v1.0 from the 1700s. It's way past time we updated with a patch. Ranked choice voting is the answer to do away with a two party system.

 

[fake]

I was typing to come up with a reply that won't simply get a reply of "NAZI!!!!" shoved back in my face. Still not sure if this will work or not...

Swing and a miss.

You two are displaying exactly what that video is addressing, the unfair typecasting of a massive group of people based on the few. That's no different than accusing everyone at last summers protests/riots as communists or socialists.

There is a huge difference.

Were there communists and socialists at the BLM protests? Yes.

Are communists and socialists inherently evil? No.

Were there nazis at Trump rallies? Yes.

Are nazis inherently evil? Yes.

Are there going to be white supremacist's or Nazis at right wing protests? Absolutely...where else would they show up to support? A BLM protest?

I think you're proving Lonesage's point here...

Does it make them all a white supremacist? Absolutely not.

As Lonesage pointed out, it makes them on the same side, and that's not a good place to be. And as Duf pointed out, there's been no honest effort from the right to flush the nazis out. If anything, they've leveraged the nazis' vitriol to gain political momentum.

So many Americans understand that none of this passes the smell test. They understand what politicians have done to this country and its citizens. The problem is that they often take out their anger on the wrong people, and even worse, these "sides" have formed making them hate each other. Save the far extremists of all of these groups, so many of these people have more in common than they realize.

They're letting politicians and the media manipulate them into viewing the other side as the enemy vs who they all should be looking at.

This is an apocryphal talking point from the right wing. They're telling you, "No, you're not stupid, and your views are just as valid as any other views." Guess what. You are and they aren't. There are sides, and one of them has nazis. Mine doesn't. Yours does. End of story.

 

[lithy]

Were there communists and socialists at the BLM protests? Yes.

Are communists and socialists inherently evil? No.

I guess the tens of millions of dead people couldn't vote in your poll so Communism escapes with a narrow victory for being 'not evil'?

Jesus.

 

[smokehouse]

I guess the tens of millions of dead people couldn't vote in your poll so Communism escapes with a narrow victory for being 'not evil'?

Jesus.

Exactly.

Communism isn't bad or evil?

The death toll of communist regimes makes The Holocaust look like amateur hour.

There are wide out in the open, large communist groups here in the US and many of them have strong political ties.

Condemning people that showed up for demonstrations last summer because there were communist activists in the mix is no different than what other's are doing with the whole Nazi accusation towards the other side.

 

[LoneSage]

smokes, god bless ya.

Last summer, people were protesting/rioting because it is fucked up beyond belief to get murdered by police, for not once, twice, but many times. Imagine you're black, and your little girl at home getting shot up for no reason at all and police just to be all 'oops'.

A week ago, people did something that would devalue currency in an African country, they listened to a sitting president who said that the election was stolen from him, it is a week from the next president's inauguration and he has yet to concede - and he has zero, ZERO, evidence of fraud.

Fuck people who firebomb houses and businesses, but people attempting to subvert democracy? For what?

smokes, god bless ya, but you're not on the right team. And if it means that I'm on the team who respects the democratic process, and you're on the team who is all for subverting that process for four more years of Donald Trump, then I'm ok with it.

 

[lithy]

Can we define either a capital N Nazi or lower case n nazi? Whichever is purported to currently dominate the Republican base.

 

[SML]

(Post altered to protect Lonesage)

Really couldn't stand watching twitter tankies defend the orced-fay erilizations-stay in the amps-cay.

I hate that the ICE abuses were there for them to deflect to.

It's the failure of accountability that will defeat us.

 

[LoneSage]

You've got the answers lithy, you're a smarter guy than I. Capital or lower case, if you're on the side of (N)/azis, ok then. That's your choice.

 

[fake]

Exactly.

Communism isn't bad or evil?

The death toll of communist regimes makes The Holocaust look like amateur hour.

There are wide out in the open, large communist groups here in the US and many of them have strong political ties.

Condemning people that showed up for demonstrations last summer because there were communist activists in the mix is no different than what other's are doing with the whole Nazi accusation towards the other side.

Communism:
Communism is a political and economic ideology that positions itself in opposition to liberal democracy and capitalism, advocating instead for a classless system in which the means of production are owned communally and private property is nonexistent or severely curtailed.

Nazi (no caps):
One who is likened to a German Nazi : a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person.

See the difference?

 

[LoneSage]

(Post altered to protect Lonesage)

Really couldn't stand watching twitter tankies defend the orced-fay erilizations-stay in the amps-cay.

I've been to Xinjiang. I saw what was happening. People can deny all they want. The problem is people who come in with false claims. Is it a million people being "re-educated"? Or 2 million? Or 3 million?

That makes it harder to believe the truth.

But the fact remains, yes, there is a cultural genocide happening in Xinjiang. The CCP is extremely efficient, and have learned from the past. No gas chambers, but they'll sinocize the rest by whatever means necessary...aside from outright murder.

 

[Ajax]

What a fuckin' laugh this thread is. These are some of the best 'sage posts I've ever read though, so that's cool.

 

[Lagduf]

You've got the answers lithy, you're a smarter guy than I. Capital or lower case, if you're on the side of (N)/azis, ok then. That's your choice.

We should really identify them as what they are: white supremacists, racists, and/or white nationalists.

Calling these folks Nazis just muddies the water.

Objectively none of them are members of the NSDAP (“Nazi Party”) - the Nazis went out the window when a bullet took up lodging in Adolf Hitler’s brain.

Calling these dangerous folks “Nazis” diminishes what the actual Nazis did: a progrom of murder resulting in 11 million dead, including 6 million Jews.

I forgot what my point was.

Republicans need to cull the racist elements from their party or conservatives need to form a party whose interest is in actually governing and not interfering in the private lives of the American people.

 

[Lagduf]

Communism:
Communism is a political and economic ideology that positions itself in opposition to liberal democracy and capitalism, advocating instead for a classless system in which the means of production are owned communally and private property is nonexistent or severely curtailed.

Nazi (no caps):
One who is likened to a German Nazi : a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person.

See the difference?

Unfortunately, we have yet to see a communist society that was not actually either a fascist regime or a strongman dictatorship.

We have communist China. But they’re hardly communist.

Can communism be democratic?

 

[fake]

Unfortunately, we have yet to see a communist society that was not actually either a fascist regime or a strongman dictatorship.

We have communist China. But they’re hardly communist.

Can communism be democratic?

I agree with that, but that's why I qualified my statement with "inherently." Correct me if I'm wrong, but a self-described communist who might attend a BLM protest would likely have an ideology of equality that empowers the poor and ensures everyone has a higher base level standard of living. They aren't likely to be fascist communists. No one is espousing dictatorial ideals. I don't think these statements are a stretch.

Meanwhile, a nazi is a nazi. A nazi wants white people to be in power and non-whites to be subservient or dead. A lightweight white supremacist at a Trump rally is someone who buys into the lies of "took'rr jerb!" and an "invasion" from south of the border. There are also white supremacists at Trump rallies that believe in some sort of Jewish new world order - "Jews will not replace us." And then of course there are people who may not be white supremacists but are racists. People who say, "Why don't they just speak English?" when they overhear someone at the grocery store speaking a foreign language. And there are people who may not even be outwardly racist, but support Trump for whatever reason, and are thereby supporting a racist. It may be black and white but I don't see much - at least in this case - of a difference between being a racist and supporting a racist. I think that this is applicable in my own life. Yeah, I like Nike sneakers. And so yes, I'm contributing to the sweatshop economy. That's on me. People need to take responsibility for their shit.

Am I crazy? Is there really a considerable amount of evil people on both sides?

 

[Lagduf]

I would agree any ideology of racial supremacy is inherently evil.

I would not say people who believe in those ideals are inherently or necessarily evil because that, to me, implies there is no possibility of change.

The opposition are still humans, despite their monstrous beliefs.

Edit: what was it we were even talking about?

 

[fake]

I would agree any ideology of racial supremacy is inherently evil.

I would not say people who believe in those ideals are inherently or necessarily evil because that, to me, implies there is no possibility of change.

The opposition are still humans, despite their monstrous beliefs.

That's fair, but I don't think that adds any weight to the "both sides" argument. Not that I'm saying you're mincing words, but what if it's rephrased as "One side has people who believe in evil ideas and the other doesn't?"