Genders and pronouns and rage

Setherial

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The answer is yes. And they always have been. Right now, an elderly woman can easily find a channel on basic cable to fill her need for mat lock, golden girl’s, Fox News, home shopping, or whatever soul comfort old fogeys yearn for.
Do milfs in porn count as well?
 

norton9478

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But it has been over 10 years since we have enjoyed an Oscar winner like The Departed, which would never win it today because some millennials would upload YouTube videos crying about whitewashing Asian cinema.

At least that the North Korean Sub Plot (which never fit in well with the American Adaptation) would probably be replaced with a Russian one.
 

jeffkun34

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I'm LTTP with this thread as usual but I respect what people want to be called. Outrage culture does play a part when you have a transgender person screaming at you to be called Ma'am but I think those are the minority of an already small group. I can sympathize with their frustration of not being called by the gender they identify as. I fully understand that in some cases gently explaining your case is not going to foster change, sometimes you do need to get upset for someone to take you seriously. I'm a fan of Contrapoints and she makes great points about this very topic and many other issues related to transgender. Below are my two favorite videos of hers and I highly recommend watching both when you have the time. Only one relates to the issue at hand but the other regarding incels is damn frighteningly interesting.


 
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smokehouse

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I'm LTTP with this thread as usual but I respect what people want to be called. Outrage culture does play a part when you have a transgender person screaming at you to be called Ma'am but I think those are the minority of an already small group. I can sympathize with their frustration of not being called by the gender they identify as. I fully understand that in some cases gently explaining your case is not going to foster change, sometimes you do need to get upset for someone to take you seriously. I'm a fan of Contrapoints and she makes great points about this very topic and many other issues related to transgender. Below are my two favorite videos of hers and I highly recommend watching both when you have the time. Only one relates to the issue at hand but the other regarding incels is damn frighteningly interesting.



I'll say I didn't research her, I'm assuming she's transgender, born male? Correct?

Something tells me she will never be mistaken for a fella in the outside world, unlike the Gamestop person, who was mistaken...and then blew their top.

The Gamestop incident was highly rare, I'll admit it...but it did happen.

The issue is this, we describe a stranger using the lowest hanging fruit, male, female, tall, short, black, white, young old. To add to that, we are a highly polarized society when it comes to sex. The entire concept of total equality and complete flat line, same treatment of each sex will never be possible when we're segregating our children from the earliest of age. and programming them to think that girls and boys are completely different.

In short...we have caused this, all of us. We were raised in a sexually segregated society with differing rules, customs, treatment and expectations based solely on sex. People that think they can bend those rules as they see fit and then expect society at large to abide by those changing and variable rules are being fools. If you want to be treated like a female, you had better act and look like one, the same goes with being male. If you don't look/act the part, you cannot possibly expect the treatment you want.

In other words, if you have to tell me you're actually a "maam" when I address you as "sir"...you're not doing it correctly and shouldn't be offended.
 

jeffkun34

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Yes, she was born male but I recommend you watch the "Are traps gay" video because she directly addresses a few of the points you bring up. In short, she says it only matters what you are attracted to, and if that happens to be a man who looks like a woman, you do you. If you are not attracted to a man who identifies as a woman, but still looks masculine, that does not give you the right to not call them by the gender they identify as, just because they are not feminine enough for you. She admits that you do have to put in a lot of work to look the way she does, including taking hormone pills.
 

smokehouse

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Yes, she was born male but I recommend you watch the "Are traps gay" video because she directly addresses a few of the points you bring up. In short, she says it only matters what you are attracted to, and if that happens to be a man who looks like a woman, you do you. If you are not attracted to a man who identifies as a woman, but still looks masculine, that does not give you the right to not call them by the gender they identify as, just because they are not feminine enough for you. She admits that you do have to put in a lot of work to look the way she does, including taking hormone pills.

Yeah, I get that, and I have no issue addressing a person as they ask....after they ask, and within reason. Right off the bat, however, if I need to address a strange...thee's the whole low hanging fruit thing. Miss, Sir, maam, you get the point...

The issue, as always, isn't the people that will work within the confines of society, it's the outer fringe that won't. The person who works at looking and acting a sex isn't the issue. I really believe this represents a mass majority of the overall mass minority trans community. They just want to be whatever sex they feel and most of them will work towards that, they don't have a be a beautiful specimen to count...hell, I"m not a beautiful example of the male form.

The issue is the wacko's that are making things difficult for everyone...like this shit here:

https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/tag/xe/

People with this Ne, Ve, Ze, Xe horse shit.


*EDIT*
I watched some of the first video.

It's a valid topic, for sure. Honestly, I feel the violence towards trans people from men has a ton to do with toxic masculinity.

"Wait...did Smokehouse just say toxic masculinity, I didn't think that he believes in "liberal shit" like that?"

Yes...I did and yes, I do fully believe in it.

Not only is toxic masculinity a massive issue with American males, I believe that it is even a larger issue in the minority communities. As she said int he video, many of the males that kill discovered trans individuals are minorities.


The second part...about trans people being gay...again, the entire concept, just like sex segregated bathrooms, is our fault, with "our" meaning society, religion, training, etc.

In an ideal world, there should be no "gay", or "straight"...just two humans that find each other sexually attractive. Wanna make a baby, sorry chap, that does require a female element and a male one...but everything else? Fair game. This is how we've raised our daughter, be with whomever you like, race, sex, doesn't matter. I could not care less who she will one day bring home with her, just as long as she is happy and in a healthy relationship with them.
 
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jeffkun34

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I agree about the fringe stuff but I don't think they are making things difficult, just weird.
 

heihachi

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I think society is overindulgent of the trans stuff to the detriment of people with dysphoria and depression. It’s a mental health issue and going along with the delusions is only helpful to a point.
 

jeffkun34

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Where it actually gets difficult is when someone goes to jail for not calling someone a gender neutral pronoun. If a judge rules that someone calling a male a "dude" is hate speech just because the man wanted to be referred to as "non" or something similar, then we have thrown context out the window and are living in a world of full entitlement without boundaries.

I think society is overindulgent of the trans stuff to the detriment of people with dysphoria and depression. It’s a mental health issue and going along with the delusions is only helpful to a point.

This is definitely debatable, and I believe there are surely a number of transgender folks with mental illness causing their identity issues. However, I relate this train of thought to the gay community. If you feel attracted to the same sex, what percentage of those folks would you think are mentally ill? You can't help what you are attracted to and I would assume the same goes for if you just don't feel comfortable in your skin as a certain sex. This does not mean that if you are born a man but identify as a woman you are suddenly attracted to men. The larger percentage of males who transition to female are still attracted to women. There are obviously biological factors still at play
 
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GohanX

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Every man, woman, child, they, and inanimate object can be "dude" at any time for any reason.
 

evil wasabi

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I think society is overindulgent of the trans stuff to the detriment of people with dysphoria and depression. It’s a mental health issue and going along with the delusions is only helpful to a point.

It’s pretty common. It’s like when a woman’s car’s engine light goes on and she tries to convince you that it’s how it should be.
 

smokehouse

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I think society is overindulgent of the trans stuff to the detriment of people with dysphoria and depression. It’s a mental health issue and going along with the delusions is only helpful to a point.

Woa man....yeah, this is a massive topic all in of itself and obviously, one I'm head deep into.

Different strokes for different folks...I think that's the best I can say.

Most know I came out in 2015, I'll say there were a few times in my life that I was *this close* to making the jump head first. I'm glad I didn't, but I'll say that the temptation was so real, and so appealing.

I can't say if it is a right or wrong choice. I'm guessing that for me, transitioning to the best female I could impersonate on the outside would have been a massive mistake, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone.

My journey since 2015 has been starving the drive, doing my best to understand my sickness and why I feel the way that I do. Hell, my wife and I were just talking about this a few nights back, it was the first time in a long time. She asked me how I had been doing and I told her it had been a struggle as of recent. For me the stress is always there, but sometimes it's worse than others.

Personally, it's been self discovery and the realization that I do indeed have gender dysphoria. I don't condemn others or their actions, but transitioning isn't my path.



This is definitely debatable, and I believe there are surely a number of transgender folks with mental illness causing their identity issues. However, I relate this train of thought to the gay community. If you feel attracted to the same sex, what percentage of those folks would you think are mentally ill? You can't help what you are attracted to and I would assume the same goes for if you just don't feel comfortable in your skin as a certain sex. This does not mean that if you are born a man but identify as a woman you are suddenly attracted to men. The larger percentage of males who transition to female are still attracted to women. There are obviously biological factors still at play

I don't feel that comparing sexual attraction to being at odds with your physical sex works, it's kind of apples and oranges. Even if you consider sexually active, mentally ill people, it still doesn't address homosexuality. Anyone can be sexually fucked up. That's not a gay or trans exclusive.

I've had 41 years on this earth and much of my life I've studied everything I can read about transgender individuals...I kind of have a massive personal stake in it. I'm no expert, but I do know my own mind. Feeling at odds with your sex isn't enjoyable, it isn't healthy...I'd even risk calling it a mental illness *GASP*.

Being a "trans" person means being at odds with everything, including your own body. Again, I can go on and on about this for hours...but there's a reason why so many trans individuals hurt themselves or commit suicide and it isn't because they're a healthy, happy individual.

Ever hear the saying of "wherever you go, there you are."? I don't care what you do to your outside, you know who you really are. This is the one massive reason why I didn't try to transition...it doesn't matter how convincing I could have possibly ever been at looking female (Hint: I wouldn't be), I'd know who I am no matter how I look. In other words, sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken, no more than breasts or sexual reassignment surgery can make me a female.

Rather than trying to force my genetic male body to be female, I'm more so trying to mend my mind so I can be more at peace with who I am. One I can work on, one has been decided for me and there is little I can do about it.
 
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jeffkun34

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Smoke, I agree with you in regards to sexuality versus biological makeup, sorry if that did not come through. I was just trying to say that labeling the majority of people with identity issues as mentally ill is dismissive at best.

Labels as a whole work positively and negatively since we place so much value on them personally. I assume most on this board would identify as some form of "gamer" and that title itself has negative and positive connotations. How much value you place on identifying as a gamer is up to you. The problem comes when someone else sees that label as effecting them negatively in some way.

Strawman argument incoming: If a transgender person loves the same games as much as you do, I can easily see someone thinking, "that fucking tranny is one of the good ones" just because they like what you like outside of the realm of sexuality. To me, that does not offset the negative of thinking they are a "fucking tranny", just because you give power to their other likes.

Then, another transgender person will not care about games at all and gives their sexual identity all of their value. They give it so much importance that they will bring up the unfair treatment of the transgender society as a whole in public venues. They will then get shit on in public for making what many consider their personal business, public. Their personal concern is now bringing them hatred just because people can except one label but not another.

Like George Carlin said, "If it does not effect you, why the fuck are you so upset?"
 
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smokehouse

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Smoke, I agree with you in regards to sexuality versus biological makeup, sorry if that did not come through. I was just trying to say that labeling the majority of people with identity issues as mentally ill is dismissive at best.

Labels as a whole work positively and negatively since we place so much value on them personally. I assume most on this board would identify as some form of "gamer" and that title itself has negative and positive connotations. How much value you place on identifying as a gamer is up to you. The problem comes when someone else sees that label as effecting them negatively in some way.

Strawman argument incoming: If a transgender person loves the same games as much as you do, I can easily see someone thinking, "that fucking tranny is one of the good ones" just because they like what you like outside of the realm of sexuality. To me, that does not offset the negative of thinking they are a "fucking tranny", just because you give power to their other likes.

Then, another transgender person will not care about games at all and gives their sexual identity all of their value. They give it so much importance that they will bring up the unfair treatment of the transgender society as a whole in public venues. They will then get shit on in public for making what many consider their personal business, public. Their personal concern is now bringing them hatred just because people can except one label but not another.

Like George Carlin said, "If it does not effect you, why the fuck are you so upset?"

The entire thing that is dangerous is the classification of words. There is no "Hate speech"...there's just hate filled people opening their mouths. This is the super slippery slope we're now on...the classification of words...actual words.

(*SNIP* I thought better of this part)


My point is this....saying something horrible...it's what is coming from the mouth that matters, not a simple term being spoken. If a person is an asshole or a racist, it doesn't matter what they say, it's all hate speech. You can make "Have a nice day" hate speech under the right conditions. Coming from an individual that isn't filled with hate, nothing is "hate speech", definitely not a word. Lots of people call me fucker, none of it is hate fueled.

This social justice shit has become really out of hand as of the past 10 or so years...and it's getting worse.


It has everything to do with cultural stereotypes and nothing to do with biological science.

Sorry man, just being a smart ass...
 
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jeffkun34

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Yep, that is why I mentioned context in my previous post. Too many people bring up the argument of “how come they get to say the n-word so much and I can’t?” If you want to say it so bad, go ahead and say it in regular society and see the reaction you get.
 

smokehouse

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Yep, that is why I mentioned context in my previous post. Too many people bring up the argument of “how come they get to say the n-word so much and I can’t?” If you want to say it so bad, go ahead and say it in regular society and see the reaction you get.

The problem is when you try to make saying it illegal.

The court of social justice will have its say...going into a black neighborhood as a white man and screaming out racial slurs will probably be met with some pretty nasty results. No need to bring law into it.

We're beginning to skew what is and isn't a hateful word. The "n-word" (god, I hate typing that) is pretty well known. When people start becoming offended by abstract words (like they are now), the whole thing is going to go off the rails.
 
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Tripredacus

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Like George Carlin said, "If it does not effect you, why the fuck are you so upset?"

Is it possible to relate this entire business to the people that brag their kid is retarded or that they have some sort of disease?
 

jeffkun34

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I agree that we are becoming very sensitive to certain words and phrases but once again, context is key. The origin of many words now used as hate speech were banal, but we all know about the banality of evil. Once something has been co-opted as a tool of hate, it becomes harder to separate it from its origins.

But the justice system does need to draw a line somewhere. I’m sure without googling, somewhere a lawyer used a picture of Pepe the frog to demonstrate how it was used to intimidate his client. It’s sad but true that racists, sexists, and other asshats seem to have to keep coming up with new symbols and terms to act as dog whistles for their hate. We have to evolve to stamp out this shit wherever we see it. I don’t have the answers but I agree that we can’t just completely make certain words have a completely Racist/sexist meaning.
 
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