Let's make OUR own OFFICIAL tier list for '02 & '03
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firebomber
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Here's my list, I think I got everyone. I think the tiers are pretty much set but there may be some debate as to the rankings within each tier (although I feel it's pretty much accurate).
KOF 2003
Big 5
Duo
Daimon
K'
Malin
Ash
Top
Benimaru
Jhun
Tizoc
Gato
Hinako
Iori
Kim
Kyo
Terry
Middle
Shen (moved down from top)
King (moved down from top)
Robert
Clark
Yamazaki (bumped up)
Ryo
Billy
Chang
Shingo
Chizuru
Joe
Mary
Athena
Bottom
Kusanagi
Yuri
Leona
Mai
Maxima
Whip
Ralf
KOF 2003
Big 5
Duo
Daimon
K'
Malin
Ash
Top
Benimaru
Jhun
Tizoc
Gato
Hinako
Iori
Kim
Kyo
Terry
Middle
Shen (moved down from top)
King (moved down from top)
Robert
Clark
Yamazaki (bumped up)
Ryo
Billy
Chang
Shingo
Chizuru
Joe
Mary
Athena
Bottom
Kusanagi
Yuri
Leona
Mai
Maxima
Whip
Ralf
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Hello, everyone.
Here's my views to Firebomber's tier list.
Shen Woo and Gato shouldn't be at top. For sure they are good, but Shen Woo isn't that abuseable. His moves are damaging but they lack finesse. He is not that hard to shut down too, something a top tier should not be suffering from.
Gato is pretty awesome but the user has to put in a lot of effort to use him well. Compared to the fact that he do not have a lot of abuseable stuff. (His moves do have priority but not a lot.) Therefore, normal Gato users = balanced but expert Gato users = top.
HE should be in a tier of HIS own.
And a blatant plug. ;p
http://www.forumplanet.com/planetdreamcast/orochinagi/topic.asp?fid=6980&tid=1433542
Here's my views to Firebomber's tier list.
Shen Woo and Gato shouldn't be at top. For sure they are good, but Shen Woo isn't that abuseable. His moves are damaging but they lack finesse. He is not that hard to shut down too, something a top tier should not be suffering from.
Gato is pretty awesome but the user has to put in a lot of effort to use him well. Compared to the fact that he do not have a lot of abuseable stuff. (His moves do have priority but not a lot.) Therefore, normal Gato users = balanced but expert Gato users = top.
HE should be in a tier of HIS own.
And a blatant plug. ;p
http://www.forumplanet.com/planetdreamcast/orochinagi/topic.asp?fid=6980&tid=1433542
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firebomber
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You're right about Shen. I placed him top because of his sheer damage potential but unless he has meter he's not nearly as effective. His defense sucks I agree, but I think his offense makes up for it in most match ups. He should be at the top of mid tier though.
Gato is probably the hardest character in the game to use to full potential so your statement about expert = top, normal = mid is 100% right. But I think for a tier list you have to rank based on the absolute best potential for a character so he stays in top.
I'm rethinking where I put King too. She should probably come down a bit because she really is not effective without meter. She doesn't fair well if you counter turtle her either.
I shall edit my first post.
Thanks for the ON link. I'm curious why you put Yama so high though. I should probably move him higher now that I think about it but I don't think he makes it to top.
Gato is probably the hardest character in the game to use to full potential so your statement about expert = top, normal = mid is 100% right. But I think for a tier list you have to rank based on the absolute best potential for a character so he stays in top.
I'm rethinking where I put King too. She should probably come down a bit because she really is not effective without meter. She doesn't fair well if you counter turtle her either.
I shall edit my first post.
Thanks for the ON link. I'm curious why you put Yama so high though. I should probably move him higher now that I think about it but I don't think he makes it to top.
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Empyrian said:
I agree. Gato is strong as hell in the right hands, and his defensive tactics outshine many players' offensive ones, that's why I'd rank him higher. Chara difficulty should only play a marginal role when compiling tier lists anyway, you can learn every chara if you only practice long enough.
About King, again, it all depends on how you play her. Her specials may not have the highest prio ever, but her speed makes up for that, that and her effective DMs.
Next, I would put Ralf in middle tier. He lost some of his cheapness compared to 2k2, but he still has some nasty high-prio moves left. What's more, he seems to be slightly quicker than before... that may be due to the overall speed of 2k3, tho.
Finally, I can't see Hinako being top tier. Prio of most of her specials is good, but damage isn't all that great.
Gato sucks on defense actually. He is very scary when he rushes you down with his stomp moves and you get outguessed. Ash seems to be able to beat him consistently though.
For King: Her jump D is good. Her anti air super is great and her slamming range is TOO far. That's all she got. Her special moves are too laggy for my liking.
Hinako: Good ratings/potential imo but too hard to use properly. Her one stock combo which takes 40% is jaw dropping damage though... I suppose if people can master her grab's peculiar properties, she should be rather good to use. (read: deadly.)
Yamazaki: Why is he overpowered? Well, he plays a very effective zoning game with his stand A/D, down C/D and snake arms. Add the C/D, f+A to snake arm combo which is uncounterable either blocked or not as he gets pushed a *distance* away. This means that opponents will have a hard time trying to get close to him.
Besides, characters with grab moves get inherent advantages in the game. So when Yamazaki knocks you down and stands in front of you and while you wake up, the DM spark appears. What would you do? Jump or block?
Just don't bother with his LDM though. There are better leaders.
He also has Down C and his anti air super as backup. So he is a pretty strong tank character.
Did I say too much?
For King: Her jump D is good. Her anti air super is great and her slamming range is TOO far. That's all she got. Her special moves are too laggy for my liking.
Hinako: Good ratings/potential imo but too hard to use properly. Her one stock combo which takes 40% is jaw dropping damage though... I suppose if people can master her grab's peculiar properties, she should be rather good to use. (read: deadly.)
Yamazaki: Why is he overpowered? Well, he plays a very effective zoning game with his stand A/D, down C/D and snake arms. Add the C/D, f+A to snake arm combo which is uncounterable either blocked or not as he gets pushed a *distance* away. This means that opponents will have a hard time trying to get close to him.
Besides, characters with grab moves get inherent advantages in the game. So when Yamazaki knocks you down and stands in front of you and while you wake up, the DM spark appears. What would you do? Jump or block?
Just don't bother with his LDM though. There are better leaders.He also has Down C and his anti air super as backup. So he is a pretty strong tank character.
Did I say too much?
firebomber
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Hinako does big damage with only 1 stock and has a great mix up game. She is one of the best at rushdown pressure in the game. She lacks a solid defense but with autoguard and her grabs she can get by.
Also the fact that she dizzys and guard crushes so fast with her multi hit moves is a great asset.
King is a great char don't get me wrong but without meter she can't do much. She relies on meter more than any character in the game and that's a big flaw I think. She can be top tier with meter, but only mid the rest of the time.
I'm firmly convinced that Ralf is the weakest in the game. He relies almost totally on his autoguard grab to get anything done. However, that move is telegraphed badly so he can't really mix up with it and it's easily bait-able if he tries to abuse the autoguard. cC can link into a tag attack which is nice, but it can't save him.
Basically I find him incredibly one sided always relying on his grab and maybe cC.
If you have some strats that don't revolve around the grab I would love to hear them though. I like Ralf, I don't want him to be bottom.
Empyrian, that's a good argument for Yama I must say.
I think mostly the reason why I'm sceptical for moving him up more is that he lacks the ability to do big damage consistantly. Also, (this is more of a general question not about tiering) how do you use Yama against a turtler? When I play Yama I always have trouble agains chars like Ash/Daimon.
Also the fact that she dizzys and guard crushes so fast with her multi hit moves is a great asset.
King is a great char don't get me wrong but without meter she can't do much. She relies on meter more than any character in the game and that's a big flaw I think. She can be top tier with meter, but only mid the rest of the time.
I'm firmly convinced that Ralf is the weakest in the game. He relies almost totally on his autoguard grab to get anything done. However, that move is telegraphed badly so he can't really mix up with it and it's easily bait-able if he tries to abuse the autoguard. cC can link into a tag attack which is nice, but it can't save him.
Basically I find him incredibly one sided always relying on his grab and maybe cC.
If you have some strats that don't revolve around the grab I would love to hear them though. I like Ralf, I don't want him to be bottom.
Empyrian, that's a good argument for Yama I must say.
I think mostly the reason why I'm sceptical for moving him up more is that he lacks the ability to do big damage consistantly. Also, (this is more of a general question not about tiering) how do you use Yama against a turtler? When I play Yama I always have trouble agains chars like Ash/Daimon.
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@Empyrian - Gato's air game can be used for defence, as well as stuff like the sB followup to his qcb+P which is a really simple reversal for mid/high/jumping attacks, at least that's how I play him when I'm under pressure.
Perhaps that's not a good strat for high-level matches, but it works quite well for me.
@firebomber - I like Ralf's revised (faster) G. Phantom LDM, it's quite rewarding damage-wise and it's also a counter-wire that sets up a nice juggle for a couple of extra hits.
The "new" overhead Ralf Kick on D is another juggle starter if your opp is standing near a corner... then it's all about the gatling attack s-c'd into a DM, which also cannot be evaded. Slightly tricky to set up, tho. If your opp is lame you can also mix it up with the B version (hits low) but that's a bit predictable...
Of course he lost potential compared to 2k2, some really miss the Ralf Tackle for safe play, but not me, I never liked it to be honest.
The guy still got enough unblockables and easy-to-use but powerful specials that it simply feels a bit odd to see him on the bottom, y'know.
Perhaps that's not a good strat for high-level matches, but it works quite well for me.
@firebomber - I like Ralf's revised (faster) G. Phantom LDM, it's quite rewarding damage-wise and it's also a counter-wire that sets up a nice juggle for a couple of extra hits.
The "new" overhead Ralf Kick on D is another juggle starter if your opp is standing near a corner... then it's all about the gatling attack s-c'd into a DM, which also cannot be evaded. Slightly tricky to set up, tho. If your opp is lame you can also mix it up with the B version (hits low) but that's a bit predictable...
Of course he lost potential compared to 2k2, some really miss the Ralf Tackle for safe play, but not me, I never liked it to be honest.
The guy still got enough unblockables and easy-to-use but powerful specials that it simply feels a bit odd to see him on the bottom, y'know.
G-Product
Benimaru's Hairdresser
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Shen Woo is definetly good, very offensive but I think it can be hard for him to get in close, where he is most effective.
Hinako is defintley good, quick, good pressure game and how her LDM opens the door for big damage.
Gato, I can't say here at all, good mix-up game but I don't understand him that much.
Yama is defintly good, unblockable LDM, his projectile reflector kills Ash's super but wont reflect it.
King is fucking Sagat
While I didnt think Malin would be top, I definetly disagree in Dream's list, she aint bottom, her yoyo's give her a good spacing game. She's quick & mobile blah blah blah etc.
Hinako is defintley good, quick, good pressure game and how her LDM opens the door for big damage.
Gato, I can't say here at all, good mix-up game but I don't understand him that much.
Yama is defintly good, unblockable LDM, his projectile reflector kills Ash's super but wont reflect it.
King is fucking Sagat
While I didnt think Malin would be top, I definetly disagree in Dream's list, she aint bottom, her yoyo's give her a good spacing game. She's quick & mobile blah blah blah etc.
Gato's anti air options include: Stand A, qcb p's b follow up, qcb k's b follow up, kick super, F+B and back hop D.
If Gato is forced on the defensive, he is very prone to losing. He has only his kick super (and it is not 100% reliable) to get out of sticky situations. He is scary because he is offense oriented like Shen Woo but his offense is more "thinking."
Ralf is lousy... (then again I use Jhun/Kim too much that when I use most of the roster, they all suck to me.)
Yamazki against Goro/Ash. It may be wise to keep them at the tip of your down D range. Jump C when they jump. Jump D if they are on the ground.
Ash: If they go full screen fireball, your qcf punch can absorb/reflect ALL of his fireballs, supers included. Hop D can stuff his uppercut. Walk forward and backwards and sha/stand/down D the bugger. You may trade the fireball but he(or she ;p) is hurt more. The trade is to tell them; "Sorry but your fireball is not invincible."
Goro: Do more poking. (stand A/D, Down C/D and snake arms) Cancel Snake Arms often to make them waste their counter DM.
Do the run and pause super trick. It is a bit different from the run grab super. But pausing for a while, you play mind games. For e.g players may jump in anticipation of the grab super. You can counter with the anti air super. The next super can be the grab super. 2 supers = 60% damage? Of course this requires a fair bit of prediction.
The problem matches for Yamazaki are actually against K`, Beni, Malin, Kim and Jhun.
If Gato is forced on the defensive, he is very prone to losing. He has only his kick super (and it is not 100% reliable) to get out of sticky situations. He is scary because he is offense oriented like Shen Woo but his offense is more "thinking."
Ralf is lousy... (then again I use Jhun/Kim too much that when I use most of the roster, they all suck to me.
)Yamazki against Goro/Ash. It may be wise to keep them at the tip of your down D range. Jump C when they jump. Jump D if they are on the ground.
Ash: If they go full screen fireball, your qcf punch can absorb/reflect ALL of his fireballs, supers included. Hop D can stuff his uppercut. Walk forward and backwards and sha/stand/down D the bugger. You may trade the fireball but he(or she ;p) is hurt more. The trade is to tell them; "Sorry but your fireball is not invincible."
Goro: Do more poking. (stand A/D, Down C/D and snake arms) Cancel Snake Arms often to make them waste their counter DM.
Do the run and pause super trick. It is a bit different from the run grab super. But pausing for a while, you play mind games. For e.g players may jump in anticipation of the grab super. You can counter with the anti air super. The next super can be the grab super. 2 supers = 60% damage? Of course this requires a fair bit of prediction.
The problem matches for Yamazaki are actually against K`, Beni, Malin, Kim and Jhun.
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Comments:
Top tier: I'm in favor of moving down Hinako, Gato, and Tizoc... none of them seem solid enough to me to be top tier. I haven't seen a solid enough Yamazaki or Kim to call either of them top tier, but from what I hear I probably just haven't seen a top tier Kim player. Kyo I'll agree is top tier just because SNK has never not broken that character in some way, shape, or form.
Middle tier: King's overpowered combos are too hard to disguise for her to be moved up. The Arcadia vid of the Shen OCV is nice, but doesn't make him top tier, so he stays here. Clark is pretty strong for the mid tier... Robert is pretty weak and I'd move him down if not for 1 combo. Joe can be moved down... the oldschool players say Joe is fine this year, but personally I think he can't recover from the snowjob he got on his TNT punch. Blue Mary also moves down... even having the throw super back, I haven't respected Blue Mary since she lost the beautiful hi/lo game she had in 2001. Athena can stay in the mid-tier... call it residual effects of 2002, but I'm still see potential there.
Low tier: I think Mai can move up if someone plays her correctly. I strongly suspect that Yuri can move up as well because she has so many options to set up the tag and her supers. I agree with Ralf at the bottom, because the speed and priority of his moves got hosed. I agree with Whip at the bottom... that's another character that was beautiful in 2001, but hasn't gotten any love since. Leona might as well be top tier if I'm playing her, but that doesn't say much because it's true for any KOF.
She definitely is weaker this year because the cross-screen V-slasher combos don't work unless the opponent is cornered.
Top tier: I'm in favor of moving down Hinako, Gato, and Tizoc... none of them seem solid enough to me to be top tier. I haven't seen a solid enough Yamazaki or Kim to call either of them top tier, but from what I hear I probably just haven't seen a top tier Kim player. Kyo I'll agree is top tier just because SNK has never not broken that character in some way, shape, or form.
Middle tier: King's overpowered combos are too hard to disguise for her to be moved up. The Arcadia vid of the Shen OCV is nice, but doesn't make him top tier, so he stays here. Clark is pretty strong for the mid tier... Robert is pretty weak and I'd move him down if not for 1 combo. Joe can be moved down... the oldschool players say Joe is fine this year, but personally I think he can't recover from the snowjob he got on his TNT punch. Blue Mary also moves down... even having the throw super back, I haven't respected Blue Mary since she lost the beautiful hi/lo game she had in 2001. Athena can stay in the mid-tier... call it residual effects of 2002, but I'm still see potential there.
Low tier: I think Mai can move up if someone plays her correctly. I strongly suspect that Yuri can move up as well because she has so many options to set up the tag and her supers. I agree with Ralf at the bottom, because the speed and priority of his moves got hosed. I agree with Whip at the bottom... that's another character that was beautiful in 2001, but hasn't gotten any love since. Leona might as well be top tier if I'm playing her, but that doesn't say much because it's true for any KOF.
She definitely is weaker this year because the cross-screen V-slasher combos don't work unless the opponent is cornered.
Why shouldn't Kim and Terry be in the second tier while you guys keep Kyo there? What does Kyo have that make him way better than them, apart from Mushiki? I happen to believe Kyo should be in the third tier.
Firebomber's list has 4 tiers so crudely translated it means...
The first tier has HUGE advantage over the rest.
The second has significant advantage.
The third tier has "ok" advantage.
The last tier is generally weak.
2k2 tier list
Athena, Billy, Choi, Iori, Vanessa, Leona, Yuri.
The rest= mid tier.
Seth= the worst.
Firebomber's list has 4 tiers so crudely translated it means...
The first tier has HUGE advantage over the rest.
The second has significant advantage.
The third tier has "ok" advantage.
The last tier is generally weak.
2k2 tier list
Athena, Billy, Choi, Iori, Vanessa, Leona, Yuri.
The rest= mid tier.
Seth= the worst.
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Heh... Terry is a beast, you won't hear me asking to move him down. dp+K, break, free juggle gets ugly fast. Can you say, "hit confirmation on the Power Geyser?"
Kyo is the hardest character in KOF to grade, even though he's almost always near the top. Take a free juggle move, a good dp, and the best pressure move in KOF, mix them together, see what you get this year. If he's not top, then he's upper-mid.
Kim, as I said before, I need to learn more about. I'll pick his '03 version up soon... I spent most of my last practice session learning Jhun over.
Edit: I played a good bit of Kim last night. He's top tier alright... practically '96 all over again.
Kyo is the hardest character in KOF to grade, even though he's almost always near the top. Take a free juggle move, a good dp, and the best pressure move in KOF, mix them together, see what you get this year. If he's not top, then he's upper-mid.
Kim, as I said before, I need to learn more about. I'll pick his '03 version up soon... I spent most of my last practice session learning Jhun over.
Edit: I played a good bit of Kim last night. He's top tier alright... practically '96 all over again.
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Duo Lon and Ash definately are pretty nasty in 2k3.