NeoTheranthrope
Basara's Blade Keeper
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Capcom fanbois. No doubt.
KoF XIII Port this Winter
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Basara's Blade Keeper
Capcom fanbois. No doubt.
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I masturbated to this post and I have absolutely zero shame about it either.
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You and me both, brother.
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THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS OMG THIS.
a 2d sidescroller from SNK-P would be the thing that fully reverses my asshole personality that I've acquired since the death of SNK. KOF 13 started the reversal process, a 2d beat em up would finalize it.
NeoTheranthrope
Basara's Blade Keeper
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How about a(nother) KoF-themed SHUMP or trivia game or Doki Doki Mahou Shimpan 3?
Lee Gray
SSVS Special Plz..., Buying & Selling that, Never
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Its just ashame its not like the good old days where once the game hits the arcade, its available for home, but now they have to work on a new game first which takes near on a year then another year for the port.
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Just sent this to Official Playstation Magazine (PTOM_letters@futureus.com):
Long time subscriber here. Long as in 'since the first issue of PSM.'
I read your KOF XIII review and saw the criticisms of the game being a difficult learning curve and a dearth of single player content.
A few things, ladies and gentlemen.
First of all, this is an incredibly deep, diverse and detailed fighter. This is an almost universally held account by people who actually play the game. Go to all the fighting game sites on the internet, like SRK, Orochinagi, neo-geo.com and anywhere else. The general consensus among players is that this game is an instant classic.
These are not people who don't know what they are talking about. These are people that understand the mechanics of fighting games.
And they love it.
And yet, you give the game a 6 because it's 'too hard.'
I don't see the 'its too hard' criticisms holding back games like Ninja Gaiden and Dark Souls. Or even Street Fighter III: Third Strike, for that matter. These games are difficult as well, but they're lauded for their difficulty. Even by trade publications like yours.
But KOF XIII somehow rates a 6 partly because 'it's too hard' for casual gamers.
Guys, come on. People get better when they play the game. That is a universal concept. The best games don't hold your hand. We all know this to be true.
Secondly, you criticize the game for having a 'dearth of single player content.'
What?
I'm going to boot the game up right now and just look over the list of all the game modes. Lessee....
1.) Tutorial-to actually teach you how to play the game. Now, it doesn't make you an expert at the game, but you learn the systems the game offers. Actually getting good at a fighting game takes practice.
2.) Arcade mode-the classic gameplay variant; pick three fighters and go through a series of fights to reach the boss.
3.) Story mode-a vastly branching gameplay mode where you play teams of characters and experience each of their stories. this can take a long time to complete, and many cutscenes expanding on the story are showcased here. For 1P modes, this is VERY thick in content and can keep people entertained/involved for more than 'a few hours. Last time I checked, no Street Fighter game ever had this kind of game mode in it.
4.) Versus-the bread and butter of any fighting game. This is where the majority of gameplay is going to come from
5.) Practice-self explanatory
6.) Playstation Network-to take your skills online and test others.
7.) Replay-to watch game replays others have recorded
8.) Gallery-things to unlock. Things to WORK AT unlocking. You know, more of that 1P mode content.
9.) Mission-things to do to complete the game. You know, even more of that 1P mode content. As mastering the gameplay can take some effort, this can be something to keep people working for quite a while.
10.) Customize-to mess around with the color schemes of the characters. Even more of that pesky 1P mode content.
11.) Player Data-a summary of your statistical data in playing the game.
12.) Playstation Store-to buy stuff
13.) Options
Guys, come on. There is plenty of 1P content in this game. More than just about any fighter I've ever seen, and a side by side comparison with the game modes of other fighters will EASILY bear this out. Significantly more than any Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter or DOA game ever made. Blazblue may have more. Not too sure about that.
So the criticism that this game has a 'dearth of single player content' is just a bogus assertion. Especially in a review spanning all of four paragraphs, because it shows that there was no real examination of the game's 1P content.
On a side note, I take umbrage at the comment that there is 'blathering walls of text over barely animated character art.'
'Blathering walls of text?' Is this game journalism or an internet forum troll being paid to print one his posts on a forum somewhere? A little more objectivity in your review would be appreciated.
The reviewer criticizes the game for lacking 1P content but this degree of character interaction is far more vast and rich in nuance than any interaction between fighting game characters I've ever seen. And I've been playing fighters since the original Street Fighter in the late eighties, and my video game collection has all the major home releases. Do Ryu and Wolverine say more than a couple lines to each other in in UMvC 3? How about Ryu and Ken in SF IV?
I will agree that the character dialogue may have little meaning to people not familiar to the series, but I'll point out this can be skipped by pressing Start if you just want to get to pushing buttons. Interesting that the reviewer didn't bother to point that out. Guess stating that, as any responsible review would have done, would go against the reviewer's condescending voice.
As for the 'barely animated' part, I could just as easily turn that back on you and say that this game is a throwback to the gaming culture of the fighting scene when it was at its best. Other fighters, like SF III and Blazblue, have just as little character animation but I don't things being brought up in game reviews. And certainly not as something to criticize. it's a non-issue in reviewing those games. Why does it matter for KOF XIII? Why does KOF XIII have to fulfill some quota for animated characters when other fighters don't have to be held up to that same standard?
Here's the point.
You criticize the game for lacking 1P content when there is plenty of 1P content to be found, and you conveniently ignore it because your mind's made up and acknowledging said content, like 'blathering walls of text', would be problematic.
The cold hard truth.
This is a terrible review, written in the span of ten minutes after playing the game for ten minutes by a person that clearly was in a crunch and kept shuffling KOF XIII to the bottom of his review pile until crunch time.
Next time, give a game like this a full page review, written by someone that can recognize what this game is and can laude its many fine qualities.
Also:
Assassin's Creed: Revelations is closer to an 9 than a 7.
Skyrim is not a 10.
And for god's sake., Conan the Barbarian is NOT a 6. It's a 1. It is a pathetic movie made by people that didn't care. Jason Momoa has a future in Hollywood, and I like him well enough, and I feel sorry for him for being involved in this production. But the movie is garbage. I shudder to think of anyone buying this movie because you gave it a better review than it deserved.
Thanks for taking the time to read. If you ever need another reviewer, I work cheap and you know where to find me.
Long time subscriber here. Long as in 'since the first issue of PSM.'
I read your KOF XIII review and saw the criticisms of the game being a difficult learning curve and a dearth of single player content.
A few things, ladies and gentlemen.
First of all, this is an incredibly deep, diverse and detailed fighter. This is an almost universally held account by people who actually play the game. Go to all the fighting game sites on the internet, like SRK, Orochinagi, neo-geo.com and anywhere else. The general consensus among players is that this game is an instant classic.
These are not people who don't know what they are talking about. These are people that understand the mechanics of fighting games.
And they love it.
And yet, you give the game a 6 because it's 'too hard.'
I don't see the 'its too hard' criticisms holding back games like Ninja Gaiden and Dark Souls. Or even Street Fighter III: Third Strike, for that matter. These games are difficult as well, but they're lauded for their difficulty. Even by trade publications like yours.
But KOF XIII somehow rates a 6 partly because 'it's too hard' for casual gamers.
Guys, come on. People get better when they play the game. That is a universal concept. The best games don't hold your hand. We all know this to be true.
Secondly, you criticize the game for having a 'dearth of single player content.'
What?
I'm going to boot the game up right now and just look over the list of all the game modes. Lessee....
1.) Tutorial-to actually teach you how to play the game. Now, it doesn't make you an expert at the game, but you learn the systems the game offers. Actually getting good at a fighting game takes practice.
2.) Arcade mode-the classic gameplay variant; pick three fighters and go through a series of fights to reach the boss.
3.) Story mode-a vastly branching gameplay mode where you play teams of characters and experience each of their stories. this can take a long time to complete, and many cutscenes expanding on the story are showcased here. For 1P modes, this is VERY thick in content and can keep people entertained/involved for more than 'a few hours. Last time I checked, no Street Fighter game ever had this kind of game mode in it.
4.) Versus-the bread and butter of any fighting game. This is where the majority of gameplay is going to come from
5.) Practice-self explanatory
6.) Playstation Network-to take your skills online and test others.
7.) Replay-to watch game replays others have recorded
8.) Gallery-things to unlock. Things to WORK AT unlocking. You know, more of that 1P mode content.
9.) Mission-things to do to complete the game. You know, even more of that 1P mode content. As mastering the gameplay can take some effort, this can be something to keep people working for quite a while.
10.) Customize-to mess around with the color schemes of the characters. Even more of that pesky 1P mode content.
11.) Player Data-a summary of your statistical data in playing the game.
12.) Playstation Store-to buy stuff
13.) Options
Guys, come on. There is plenty of 1P content in this game. More than just about any fighter I've ever seen, and a side by side comparison with the game modes of other fighters will EASILY bear this out. Significantly more than any Street Fighter, Tekken, Virtua Fighter or DOA game ever made. Blazblue may have more. Not too sure about that.
So the criticism that this game has a 'dearth of single player content' is just a bogus assertion. Especially in a review spanning all of four paragraphs, because it shows that there was no real examination of the game's 1P content.
On a side note, I take umbrage at the comment that there is 'blathering walls of text over barely animated character art.'
'Blathering walls of text?' Is this game journalism or an internet forum troll being paid to print one his posts on a forum somewhere? A little more objectivity in your review would be appreciated.
The reviewer criticizes the game for lacking 1P content but this degree of character interaction is far more vast and rich in nuance than any interaction between fighting game characters I've ever seen. And I've been playing fighters since the original Street Fighter in the late eighties, and my video game collection has all the major home releases. Do Ryu and Wolverine say more than a couple lines to each other in in UMvC 3? How about Ryu and Ken in SF IV?
I will agree that the character dialogue may have little meaning to people not familiar to the series, but I'll point out this can be skipped by pressing Start if you just want to get to pushing buttons. Interesting that the reviewer didn't bother to point that out. Guess stating that, as any responsible review would have done, would go against the reviewer's condescending voice.
As for the 'barely animated' part, I could just as easily turn that back on you and say that this game is a throwback to the gaming culture of the fighting scene when it was at its best. Other fighters, like SF III and Blazblue, have just as little character animation but I don't things being brought up in game reviews. And certainly not as something to criticize. it's a non-issue in reviewing those games. Why does it matter for KOF XIII? Why does KOF XIII have to fulfill some quota for animated characters when other fighters don't have to be held up to that same standard?
Here's the point.
You criticize the game for lacking 1P content when there is plenty of 1P content to be found, and you conveniently ignore it because your mind's made up and acknowledging said content, like 'blathering walls of text', would be problematic.
The cold hard truth.
This is a terrible review, written in the span of ten minutes after playing the game for ten minutes by a person that clearly was in a crunch and kept shuffling KOF XIII to the bottom of his review pile until crunch time.
Next time, give a game like this a full page review, written by someone that can recognize what this game is and can laude its many fine qualities.
Also:
Assassin's Creed: Revelations is closer to an 9 than a 7.
Skyrim is not a 10.
And for god's sake., Conan the Barbarian is NOT a 6. It's a 1. It is a pathetic movie made by people that didn't care. Jason Momoa has a future in Hollywood, and I like him well enough, and I feel sorry for him for being involved in this production. But the movie is garbage. I shudder to think of anyone buying this movie because you gave it a better review than it deserved.
Thanks for taking the time to read. If you ever need another reviewer, I work cheap and you know where to find me.
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Lee Gray
SSVS Special Plz..., Buying & Selling that, Never
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Kiss me
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PSN gave this game a 6? Are you nuts? Worst review ever. Its to hard? How the hell did this game get such a low rating. What, because a game finally comes out in YEARS that's not dumbed down horseshit like IV?
Wait a go PSM reviewer for sucking at games and sinking this release because they have no skill.
Also, this game was a easy platinum for me, and so what if some trials are hard, by the time you get good, you start having smarter more relaxed execution and everything feels really smooth.
I swear man some of the gamers of today and pussies.
There is no reward for immediately being amazing in something, and IMHO. From years of being a OG KOF player since like 1997, this game is a lot easier to play, its easily my favorite in the entire series, which I can't even believe, and its like KOF 2002 with training wheels, so those MAX/HD combos are now possible to learn and get consistent with a softer touch.
Wait a go PSM reviewer for sucking at games and sinking this release because they have no skill.
Also, this game was a easy platinum for me, and so what if some trials are hard, by the time you get good, you start having smarter more relaxed execution and everything feels really smooth.
I swear man some of the gamers of today and pussies.
There is no reward for immediately being amazing in something, and IMHO. From years of being a OG KOF player since like 1997, this game is a lot easier to play, its easily my favorite in the entire series, which I can't even believe, and its like KOF 2002 with training wheels, so those MAX/HD combos are now possible to learn and get consistent with a softer touch.
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complexz
Rosa's Tag-Tea,
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if I was a reviewer I would give XIII a less than optimal score, but it wouldn't be for lack of singleplayer content or difficulty, that's just stupid.... it would be for the netcode. I would take 2 points off just for the netcode alone if not more and if the review used the netcode as justification for the lower score I would understand.... not agree.... but understand at least.
this is a 10 outa 10 game IMO, with 4 outa 10 in online experience.
this is a 10 outa 10 game IMO, with 4 outa 10 in online experience.
Blue Steel
previously "bubu_X"
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Obviously whoever reviewed it at PlayStation Mag is some whiny twat unfamiliar with SNK fighting games. It sucks I have to wait til Christmas before I can tear into it.
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Difficulty and unfairness are totally different concepts.
You cannot bash a game for it's difficult, as long as it's fair to the player. As long as the controls and the engine are smooth, difficulty is nothing but a way to add depht and replay value to a game.
Is that hard to get? So it seems for PS3 SF4 "I want the onscreen eyecandy by pressing a single button" fanboiz.
Lame lame lame.
You cannot bash a game for it's difficult, as long as it's fair to the player. As long as the controls and the engine are smooth, difficulty is nothing but a way to add depht and replay value to a game.
Is that hard to get? So it seems for PS3 SF4 "I want the onscreen eyecandy by pressing a single button" fanboiz.
Lame lame lame.
Blue Steel
previously "bubu_X"
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I would give it a 7 just because one aspect of the game is horrible - the online. KOF 13 is also dumbed down whether you want to accept it or not. KOF 2002 is way, WAY deeper than this game in terms of execution that it is not even funny. HD activation in a middle of a combo, and the game holds your hand by dashing forward. You even admitted it in your post by calling it a kof 2002 "training wheel". KOF 13 has lenient timing for links and combos as well. Hell, the KOF series has lenient timings on moves/combos ever since KOF 11. Only the combos got longer, but once you get the rhythm down they are easy to do. SSF4 has shortcuts I agree, but it is not a brain dead game. SSF4 has the juicy footsies and option select mind games which are satisfying to use. 1 frame links require plinking, but they are still hard to do consistently in a heated match. AE 2012 has improved a lot in terms of balance. It is now a better game to play compared to AE. I still love kof 13 though. It's a great game.
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Professor Denim
Atro Ego
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there's still room for that in KOF XIII. an update addressing the online has been already announced.
i would not give less than an 8/10 to this game. also would not give it a perfect score.
And honestly the 6/10 of PSM doesn't surprise me at all.its actually pretty obvious. there are a very few publications that have the qualification to review this kind of game. it has nothing to do with them being a SF4 fanboys. you need a reviewer/publication with some knowledge of videogame culture/history, someone mature enough to treat 2D games not has some videogame "joke" but for what it really is.
Lee Gray
SSVS Special Plz..., Buying & Selling that, Never
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Imagine in the early 90s when street fighter 2 was king... say that home consoles then all had net play and it was terrible on this game, that game would have still been great.
Net play aside though KOFXIII is great and one of the best 2d beat em ups ever and cant really be down rated for lack of one player content....trophies are just a bonus in these games but there is plenty to do in one player mode.
I do agree that netplay should be solid though as there is a prob, a fucking annoying one especially in ranked matches....however if you create your own room with your preferred settings and wait for people to come to you with those settings, then theres no problem at all. They do need to sort it out with the patch though as during ranked matches I got disconnected a couple of times and for no fault of mine, my match completion percent dropped because of it.
Net play aside though KOFXIII is great and one of the best 2d beat em ups ever and cant really be down rated for lack of one player content....trophies are just a bonus in these games but there is plenty to do in one player mode.
I do agree that netplay should be solid though as there is a prob, a fucking annoying one especially in ranked matches....however if you create your own room with your preferred settings and wait for people to come to you with those settings, then theres no problem at all. They do need to sort it out with the patch though as during ranked matches I got disconnected a couple of times and for no fault of mine, my match completion percent dropped because of it.
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complexz
Rosa's Tag-Tea,
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online is the absolute most important feature of a fighter, yes shitty online should absolutely effect how it's rated.
my experience with the game has been like 10% what it could have been because everytime I go online it's bellow my standards.... I don't have huge standards, I am okay with street fighter IV and many find it's online quality entry level at best. The lack of playing new and challenging opponents withought the lag totally changing elements of the game has left me with less motivation to practice to become better than said opponents. The lack of quality online play even effects my ability to play offline as EVERY SINGLE ONE of my friends who had any interest in the game were cautious to buy it due to XII's terrible online, because the impressions of the online play thus far have not been possitive, nobody bought it.
I don't wanna keep bitching about the online, I love this game and all..... I just can't agree with people acting like online is just icing on the cake and we should be happy to be playing such a great game at all. If anything am more disipointed in the online BECAUSE the game is awesome in other areas. The online experience is most people's main platform to enjoy the bulk of the games content and it is flawed leaving the entire experience flawed.
my experience with the game has been like 10% what it could have been because everytime I go online it's bellow my standards.... I don't have huge standards, I am okay with street fighter IV and many find it's online quality entry level at best. The lack of playing new and challenging opponents withought the lag totally changing elements of the game has left me with less motivation to practice to become better than said opponents. The lack of quality online play even effects my ability to play offline as EVERY SINGLE ONE of my friends who had any interest in the game were cautious to buy it due to XII's terrible online, because the impressions of the online play thus far have not been possitive, nobody bought it.
I don't wanna keep bitching about the online, I love this game and all..... I just can't agree with people acting like online is just icing on the cake and we should be happy to be playing such a great game at all. If anything am more disipointed in the online BECAUSE the game is awesome in other areas. The online experience is most people's main platform to enjoy the bulk of the games content and it is flawed leaving the entire experience flawed.
Lee Gray
SSVS Special Plz..., Buying & Selling that, Never
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I did throw my TV controller across the room in anger and really want to play some more online ranking matches but will be annoyed if I lose connection again and my percent drops even more.
Currently played 185 online games completed.
out of those about 20 games had bad lag.
played about 20 more games where connection was lost before start of match, had a few cut off half way through and had about 30 assholes disconnect when I just about to win the match.....the fucking assholes.
I wonder exactly how many people dont have an internet connection to their console.
Currently played 185 online games completed.
out of those about 20 games had bad lag.
played about 20 more games where connection was lost before start of match, had a few cut off half way through and had about 30 assholes disconnect when I just about to win the match.....the fucking assholes.
I wonder exactly how many people dont have an internet connection to their console.
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Originally posted by "Strifesterz0r" from the Atlus forums:
Edit: I will just remove the link and copy / paste the review here. I don't want to give this crap any extra free hits:
King Of Fighters XIII review
To rack up 13 games, a series must be doing something right – it’s pretty unlikely we’ll one day see Homefront XIII. In Japan especially, King Of Fighters is a respected long-running franchise, but going on this new effort alone it’s difficult to see why.
Take the visuals, which don’t so much fail to impress as assault your eyes like flies exploding on a windscreen. We’re all for retro looks – have you seen Amy Adams in Night Of The Museum 2? – but there’s an art to keeping old-school graphics pretty. Here, 2D characters suffer from jagged edges, underwhelming effects on specials, and three frame animations per attack.
That was fine in The King Of Fighters ’94, but our eyes have been spoiled by the likes of Marvel vs Capcom 3 since then. The biggest technical issue is the loading times, though: you can make a cup of tea, wash your car, pop to the shops and walk the family tortoise and still return to the same loading screen.
Often, these extended loads precede nothing more than an options screen – and once you’re done with that it’s back to the loading again.
One sizeable plus is the game’s fairly unique control set, with plenty of dodge, jump and counter options. It’s tricky but rewarding, and those poor animations actually come in handy when you’re trying to second-guess your opponent. Longer combos are difficult, thanks to enemies’ tendency to bounce away after just one attack – but that aside, the pace and difficulty are spot-on.
It’s the faintest of praise, though. Because as solid as the combat is, there are numerous contemporaries that offer as much challenge and fun with much more visual flair, and without horrendous loading times.
That means you really have to care about the series’ storyline to enjoy number XIII. Even then the old ‘only for hardcore fans’ cliché doesn’t apply, because the devoted will be hard pushed to find anything fresh here.
Score: 5 / 10
Official Playstation Magazine - UK
Edit: I will just remove the link and copy / paste the review here. I don't want to give this crap any extra free hits:
King Of Fighters XIII review
To rack up 13 games, a series must be doing something right – it’s pretty unlikely we’ll one day see Homefront XIII. In Japan especially, King Of Fighters is a respected long-running franchise, but going on this new effort alone it’s difficult to see why.
Take the visuals, which don’t so much fail to impress as assault your eyes like flies exploding on a windscreen. We’re all for retro looks – have you seen Amy Adams in Night Of The Museum 2? – but there’s an art to keeping old-school graphics pretty. Here, 2D characters suffer from jagged edges, underwhelming effects on specials, and three frame animations per attack.
That was fine in The King Of Fighters ’94, but our eyes have been spoiled by the likes of Marvel vs Capcom 3 since then. The biggest technical issue is the loading times, though: you can make a cup of tea, wash your car, pop to the shops and walk the family tortoise and still return to the same loading screen.
Often, these extended loads precede nothing more than an options screen – and once you’re done with that it’s back to the loading again.
One sizeable plus is the game’s fairly unique control set, with plenty of dodge, jump and counter options. It’s tricky but rewarding, and those poor animations actually come in handy when you’re trying to second-guess your opponent. Longer combos are difficult, thanks to enemies’ tendency to bounce away after just one attack – but that aside, the pace and difficulty are spot-on.
It’s the faintest of praise, though. Because as solid as the combat is, there are numerous contemporaries that offer as much challenge and fun with much more visual flair, and without horrendous loading times.
That means you really have to care about the series’ storyline to enjoy number XIII. Even then the old ‘only for hardcore fans’ cliché doesn’t apply, because the devoted will be hard pushed to find anything fresh here.
Score: 5 / 10
Official Playstation Magazine - UK
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complexz
Rosa's Tag-Tea,
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yeah.... that review is fucking terrible, and after all that bitching about problems that don't exist he never touched on the one problem that people actually care about.
ugly graphics? long load times? 3 frame animation? what fucking game is this guy playing? poor animations come in handy when trying to second-guess your opponent? what does this even mean? lol @ this scrub trying to pretend he understands what a mind game is.... unless this whole review was a mind game... then consider me baited.
ugly graphics? long load times? 3 frame animation? what fucking game is this guy playing? poor animations come in handy when trying to second-guess your opponent? what does this even mean? lol @ this scrub trying to pretend he understands what a mind game is.... unless this whole review was a mind game... then consider me baited.
Lee Gray
SSVS Special Plz..., Buying & Selling that, Never
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The load times are not too noticeable now as I am use to it but it does take longer than other beat em ups, however thats only as so much animation and greatness needs to be loaded in. Survival mode load times are virtually non existent except when a new background is loaded in but until then you get 3 fights with no waiting at all.
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That is a terrible review.
KOF XIII shits all over UMvC 3.
As for the online component of a console fighter, I believe that it must be included when rating a game made in the modern era of home video games.
If it's a feature that's offered in the game and it doesn't work to expectation, then the game is not living up to one of its promises.
KOF XIII shits all over UMvC 3.
As for the online component of a console fighter, I believe that it must be included when rating a game made in the modern era of home video games.
If it's a feature that's offered in the game and it doesn't work to expectation, then the game is not living up to one of its promises.
GunstarHeroblack
Krauser's Shoe Shiner
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Had to steal this quote from fightersgeneration.com:
my thoughts above exactly.
obviously this junk from PlaystationUK KOfxiii is a Troll Review... maybe the reviewers eyes Have been "SOILED" by the 3d avatar Glasses fad that have left him brainwashed and confused.
"the sprites arnt high res!! the sprites have jaggies!!"
complaining about loading screens? give ME a frickin Break.... hes acting as if this is like the loadtimes of NGBC here, with his long winded analogy .
my thoughts above exactly.
obviously this junk from PlaystationUK KOfxiii is a Troll Review... maybe the reviewers eyes Have been "SOILED" by the 3d avatar Glasses fad that have left him brainwashed and confused.
"the sprites arnt high res!! the sprites have jaggies!!"
complaining about loading screens? give ME a frickin Break.... hes acting as if this is like the loadtimes of NGBC here, with his long winded analogy .