The Walking Dead TV series courtesy of AMC.

[SonGohan]

I don't know but they sure are taking along time to say it. Where the fuck is Mearl?!

If things come out the way they should, he should be running a town.

 

[Taiso]

I don't know but they sure are taking along time to say it. Where the fuck is Mearl?!

No offense, but they aren't taking a long time to say this.

Merle is not a major character. He appeared in one episode. He may come back at a later point, but he hasn't been 'gone' all that long.

I really don't get people complaining that things move too slow. What do they want, for the story to go so fast that there is no time to build tension, develop characters and introduce plot elements in a way that gives them room to breathe?

I don't want to see Merle before it's the appropriate time. I don't want this series to move so fast that the characters and story are shit. Just enjoy it as it's being told, and don't worry about the questions that aren't being answered. It's not about Merle. It's about Rick, his family and his band of survivors. It's about their group dynamic and the things they have to do to live. Merle's not a part of that. He'll show when he shows.

 

[evil wasabi]

No offense, but they aren't taking a long time to say this.

Merle is not a major character. He appeared in one episode. He may come back at a later point, but he hasn't been 'gone' all that long.

I really don't get people complaining that things move too slow. What do they want, for the story to go so fast that there is no time to build tension, develop characters and introduce plot elements in a way that gives them room to breathe?

I don't want to see Merle before it's the appropriate time. I don't want this series to move so fast that the characters and story are shit. Just enjoy it as it's being told, and don't worry about the questions that aren't being answered. It's not about Merle. It's about Rick, his family and his band of survivors. It's about their group dynamic and the things they have to do to live. Merle's not a part of that. He'll show when he shows.

You're giving the show way too much credit, where none is due, at all.

 

[Taiso]

You're giving the show way too much credit, where none is due, at all.

I think you're missing the point of my comment.

You're equating my post with some acknowledgement that the show is a work of art.

I am saying that to rush Merle back into things, rushing the plot at all because the audience is impatient, would just fuck up whatever it is they're TRYING to do.

And anyway, I am enjoying the show just fine. It is what it is and I'm content with it. I think they've done a pretty good job telling the story they want to tell. The first season had problems, but I think this season is turning out exactly how they want it to. In my opinion, it's not clicking with you is all.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

I think you're missing the point of my comment.

You're equating my post with some acknowledgement that the show is a work of art.

I am saying that to rush Merle back into things, rushing the plot at all because the audience is impatient, would just fuck up whatever it is they're TRYING to do.

And anyway, I am enjoying the show just fine. It is what it is and I'm content with it. I think they've done a pretty good job telling the story they want to tell. The first season had problems, but I think this season is turning out exactly how they want it to. In my opinion, it's not clicking with you is all.

Not for nothing, but it seems like you enjoy the show more than most. I like it just fine, but I think it's pretty flawed. And to me, the pacing is way, way off. The slow bits don't build tension for me. They just bore me. I'm not saying they should rush or anything, just not be so goddamned slow, that's all. There's a middle ground.

I have a high tolerance for boring bits, if I think they're warranted (and I cite as my proof the fact that I'm a huge Terrence Mallick fan ), but I just don't think this show is well paced. It's still quite fun and worth watching, but if I had to name my favourite shows on the air right now, this probably wouldn't break the top five.

 

[SonGohan]

I think it's okay if the pacing is slow as long as they're using it to develop characters. However, I don't think they are, which makes it more of a drag.

 

[Taiso]

I think they *are* defining characters with the slow bits. You're learning who some of the characters really are right now. Dale didn't get much of a chance to be more than 'feeble old mechanic RV owner' in the first season and in the first two episodes of this season, you're seeing the reason he matters to the group dynamic. I also think we're learning a lot about Daryl and who he really is with the whole hunt for Sophia and the reasons for it. I'd even argue at one point that we got to see some layers of Andrea get peeled back and exposed, some things that maybe the audience didn't understand about why she wanted to die. We're seeing why she'll eventually want to learn how to use a gun and become such a great shot with it (if it goes the way of the comic.)

Some of the characters are not being focused on, but I really don't think these episodes are about them. I think they're more about the people that have stepped up. T-bone wanting to run wasn't about showing T-bone as a character. I think it was there to play as a foil to who Dale is.

I think the show's fine right now. I thought the first season had bad pacing. I think the second season has perfectly acceptable pacing.

 

[SonGohan]

I disagree. Not with what you say, but the impact of what you feel you're saying has. I'd hardly say we're learning anything about Daryl - we've seen him act only two ways (where he's angry about how his brother was treated (surprise), and cooperating with the group), and I wouldn't say there's any depthness or hidden questions of Andrea wanting to die - that was pretty straight forward. If there was any character development to be argued, I'd say it would be Dale. But that's one character out of however many are in the group?

My point is that they have an hour to play with all this stuff. I'm not saying the show is bad - I do enjoy it. I just think it's valid when people have complaints about the pacing and character development. Especially when you take into account that the original source was so great with both.

Regardless, I hope the hunt for Sophia is cut off indefinitely. It would be awful is she all of a sudden turned up - zombie, or otherwise. This story needs to be dark in order for things to work.

 

[evil wasabi]

Not for nothing, but it seems like you enjoy the show more than most. I like it just fine, but I think it's pretty flawed. And to me, the pacing is way, way off. The slow bits don't build tension for me. They just bore me. I'm not saying they should rush or anything, just not be so goddamned slow, that's all. There's a middle ground.

I have a high tolerance for boring bits, if I think they're warranted (and I cite as my proof the fact that I'm a huge Terrence Mallick fan ), but I just don't think this show is well paced. It's still quite fun and worth watching, but if I had to name my favourite shows on the air right now, this probably wouldn't break the top five.

I also enjoy the show, but it's not that good. There isn't really any build up, tension, or anything that makes me feel like I need to see it next week.

Maybe it's due to the budget cut that they suffered. Maybe if they had more money they could hire more writers.

 

[Taiso]

I disagree. Not with what you say, but the impact of what you feel you're saying has. I'd hardly say we're learning anything about Daryl - we've seen him act only two ways (where he's angry about how his brother was treated (surprise), and cooperating with the group),

I see all of this as presaging a much deeper examination of the character. It's shaping up to be a classic example of 'show, don't tell,' which is the first good rule of storytelling. If they don't botch the storyline, and so far they've given no indication that they will, all this tablesetting with Daryl will result in something later.

It's not the greatest character build of all time, but I think it's working so far.

and I wouldn't say there's any depthness or hidden questions of Andrea wanting to die - that was pretty straight forward.

That is, again, all table setting to further define the dynamic between her and Dale. It's not the end result of the character. I feel the story and character building elements are more subtle than all that. It may not be working for you, but it's perfectly fine in my opinion.

If there was any character development to be argued, I'd say it would be Dale. But that's one character out of however many are in the group?

In the middle of a zombie apocalypse, it would be unnatural for them to stop surviving long enough for them to exposit on characters. They're fitting it in where they can, when they can, within the natural framework of events.

This is the kind of thing where if they stopped to develop characters after every commercial break, people would be bitching 'hey, isn't there a zombie outbreak on? What's with all the drama?'

It's a show about surviving a zombie apocalypse with decompressed character building mechanics because that is the most natural way to tell this story.

I don't see this as some 'deliberately slow beauty' but the pacing of the show is perfectly accept6able and the character building mechanics are working within the contexst of the show's premise. This isn't people sitting around in diners or in cars with the lights out talking about their lives. They're scavenging to survive. It's just better for them to do it this way, given the situation at hand.

If they speed this shit up, people will be saying 'Oh, they found what they needed, just lilke that?' and they'd call bullshit. A show like this can't win for losing.

First season had problems. Second season doesn't so far.

My point is that they have an hour to play with all this stuff. I'm not saying the show is bad - I do enjoy it. I just think it's valid when people have complaints about the pacing and character development. Especially when you take into account that the original source was so great with both.

That is not necessarily true. People bitched and moaned with every monthly release of TWD that it was 'moving too slow.' But when you read all those arcs in compiled format, they are wholly satsifying reads (for the most part.)

So this is a case where the method of consumption may initially seem slow, but it makes a better product in the end.

I gave the first season to a coworker to watch. We all bitched about the series and its flaws with every weekly episode.

She watched the whole thing in one sitting and said she loved every minute of it.

So who's right?

Maybe the show is fine and we're all just bitter fucks.

Regardless, I hope the hunt for Sophia is cut off indefinitely. It would be awful is she all of a sudden turned up - zombie, or otherwise. This story needs to be dark in order for things to work.

If they intend to keep Sophia around, I think they need to have a convincing way to bring her back. If the plot mechanics for finding her healthy and safe are good enough, then no great sin of storytelilng has been committed. But if it's some bullshit mood breaking contrivance, I'll be let down.

I think the show IS dark, and suitably so. Look what's happening to Carl right now, and the hell Rick and Lori have to endure because of it. In a normal world, he would already be in ICU. But in a zombie owned world, they have to deal with his injury in a completely different way and with compounded problems.

And that is what the show is all about. The day to day survival. It's not even really about building characters, to be honest. It's about having some decent characters, dumping them in a grinder, turning on the power and seeing what happens. In that respect, the show is doing fine right now. I'm all in. Not my FAVORITE SHOW EVER, but it's fine.

 

[evil wasabi]

She watched the whole thing in one sitting and said she loved every minute of it.

This could be more a reaction to the rest of tv, as a whole, rather than an evaluation of the show on its own merits. There's a lot of lame tv out there.

 

[Taiso]

This could be more a reaction to the rest of tv, as a whole, rather than an evaluation of the show on its own merits. There's a lot of lame tv out there.

The show's merits are perfectly acceptable. They may not be the gold standard for television, but so what? The show works.

 

[SonGohan]

I see all of this as presaging a much deeper examination of the character. It's shaping up to be a classic example of 'show, don't tell,' which is the first good rule of storytelling. If they don't botch the storyline, and so far they've given no indication that they will, all this tablesetting with Daryl will result in something later.

It's not the greatest character build of all time, but I think it's working so far.

There hasn't been anything to indicate that's what they're doing. That's only you thinking that's what they're doing. And you could be right. You could be wrong, too. As it stands right now, we aren't learning a lot about Daryl. That was my point.

That is, again, all table setting to further define the dynamic between her and Dale. It's not the end result of the character. I feel the story and character building elements are more subtle than all that. It may not be working for you, but it's perfectly fine in my opinion.

When you say "I feel the character building elements are more subtle than all that," I read it as "I'm reading way more into things than anybody else, and for that it's perfectly fine in my opinion." I'm glad it's working for you.

In the middle of a zombie apocalypse, it would be unnatural for them to stop surviving long enough for them to exposit on characters. They're fitting it in where they can, when they can, within the natural framework of events.

This is the kind of thing where if they stopped to develop characters after every commercial break, people would be bitching 'hey, isn't there a zombie outbreak on? What's with all the drama?'

It's a show about surviving a zombie apocalypse with decompressed character building mechanics because that is the most natural way to tell this story.

You keep throwing around terms like "it's fine," "it's acceptable," and "it's natural' - yet all of those are debatable. Let's not pass genuine problems off with these terms when it's possible things can be better. I get the point you're trying to make that people will bitch regardless of what happens, but let's not act like some of them aren't valid.

First season had problems. Second season doesn't so far.

I'm so diametrically opposed in this viewpoint. The first season was great, in my opinion. There was so much accomplished in those 6 episodes, and although I wasn't a fan of the way it ended, it was still satisfying. Right now, the second season has me on the edge of being disinterested in the story, and the characters - but I'm still with it and am enjoying it - hoping for some of those character payoffs you've already convinced yourself is coming.

That is not necessarily true. People bitched and moaned with every monthly release of TWD that it was 'moving too slow.' But when you read all those arcs in compiled format, they are wholly satsifying reads (for the most part.)

So this is a case where the method of consumption may initially seem slow, but it makes a better product in the end.

I gave the first season to a coworker to watch. We all bitched about the series and its flaws with every weekly episode.

She watched the whole thing in one sitting and said she loved every minute of it.

So who's right?

Maybe the show is fine and we're all just bitter fucks.

Who's right? Well, everybody is - that's their opinion. I have to say that your co-worker's situation sounds pretty retarded, though. I mean, when I first started watching Sons of Anarchy, I found the first season to be slow. I watched it all in one sitting, too. I'm sure if I watched it weekly I'd have the same viewpoint - maybe even harsher, and probably wouldn't have stuck with the show in that case, which is a shame as it got really good, really fast, in my opinion.

And whether or not people bitched about TWD comics is irrelevant, because the TV show has the luxury of using that storyline template, which they didn't. That was my point.

If they intend to keep Sophia around, I think they need to have a convincing way to bring her back. If the plot mechanics for finding her healthy and safe are good enough, then no great sin of storytelilng has been committed. But if it's some bullshit mood breaking contrivance, I'll be let down.

I think the show IS dark, and suitably so. Look what's happening to Carl right now, and the hell Rick and Lori have to endure because of it. In a normal world, he would already be in ICU. But in a zombie owned world, they have to deal with his injury in a completely different way and with compounded problems.

And that is what the show is all about. The day to day survival. It's not even really about building characters, to be honest. It's about having some decent characters, dumping them in a grinder, turning on the power and seeing what happens. In that respect, the show is doing fine right now. I'm all in. Not my FAVORITE SHOW EVER, but it's fine.

Why isn't the show YOUR FAVORITE SHOW EVER? I mean, if everything is "fine," "acceptable," "natural," with "no great sins of storytelling being committed," surely this should jump to your number one spot. Shouldn't it? Or could it be better? The show is completely average, and for reasons I feel, have been stated (oddy, by both you and me).

BTW, I thought it was oddly convenient Carl gets shot mere miles away from a house, untouched by zombies, who is home to a doctor (of sorts) who will probably save his life. I mean, what's the point. So we could have a cool high school zombie scene? Okay, I can dig that, but the whole premise is stupid. If Sophia is found to be healthy, of course the plot mechanics will be good enough to explain it. That doesn't make those plot mechanics good. Realistically, that girl is dead the first few hours she's in those woods. I would like the show to reflect that. I'm not watching the show to see people survive. I'm watching it to see people lose their mind and get killed, which is exactly what would happen in an apocalypse.

Otherwise, give Rick a Handcannon with unlimited ammo and let him tear shit up as Shane tags along, stocked with first aid sprays and herbs.

 

[Taiso]

There hasn't been anything to indicate that's what they're doing. That's only you thinking that's what they're doing. And you could be right. You could be wrong, too. As it stands right now, we aren't learning a lot about Daryl. That was my point.

I'm not passing judgement because I don't see where it's all going before I declare it bad or good.

But I think we've learned enough about him through his actions to this point. We've learned as much as is natural for this type of story.

When you say "I feel the character building elements are more subtle than all that," I read it as "I'm reading way more into things than anybody else, and for that it's perfectly fine in my opinion." I'm glad it's working for you.

I haven't lost objectivity. This is just how I see the show right now, at this point in time.

You keep throwing around terms like "it's fine," "it's acceptable," and "it's natural' - yet all of those are debatable. Let's not pass genuine problems off with these terms when it's possible things can be better. I get the point you're trying to make that people will bitch regardless of what happens, but let's not act like some of them aren't valid.

I disagree with the complaints as I've read them, so I don't consider them valid objections to the show's quality.

I'm so diametrically opposed in this viewpoint. The first season was great, in my opinion. There was so much accomplished in those 6 episodes, and although I wasn't a fan of the way it ended, it was still satisfying. Right now, the second season has me on the edge of being disinterested in the story, and the characters - but I'm still with it and am enjoying it - hoping for some of those character payoffs you've already convinced yourself is coming.

Why are you being a douche about this? Why have I 'convinced myself' about it?

Dude, dial it back. I have nothing against you. I just disagree with you about a TV show. Please stop with the passive aggressive. I like you well enough from what I see on this site.

If you feel I've insulted you with my words or thoughts, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent.

Who's right? Well, everybody is - that's their opinion. I have to say that your co-worker's situation sounds pretty retarded, though. I mean, when I first started watching Sons of Anarchy, I found the first season to be slow. I watched it all in one sitting, too. I'm sure if I watched it weekly I'd have the same viewpoint - maybe even harsher, and probably wouldn't have stuck with the show in that case, which is a shame as it got really good, really fast, in my opinion.

And whether or not people bitched about TWD comics is irrelevant, because the TV show has the luxury of using that storyline template, which they didn't. That was my point.

And my point was that people are going to complain when things 'move too slow' regardless of the media in which it's presented. But when the whole thing is seen in a finished form, it can be more accurately and fairly judged.

Why isn't the show YOUR FAVORITE SHOW EVER? I mean, if everything is "fine," "acceptable," "natural," with "no great sins of storytelling being committed," surely this should jump to your number one spot. Shouldn't it? Or could it be better? The show is completely average, and for reasons I feel, have been stated (oddy, by both you and me).

Because a TV show can be perfectly fine but not present anything to get me more enthused about it. I've watched plenty of TV shows I've 'liked' but didn't feel the need to really get excited about.

I love the Berserk anime. I love the Berserk comic. I love The Walking Dead comic (although less, lately.) Those are things I actually feel an emotional impact about.

The Walking Dead TV show is just a show I'm enjoying watching. Nothing more.

I hope that answers your question.

BTW, I thought it was oddly convenient Carl gets shot mere miles away from a house, untouched by zombies, who is home to a doctor (of sorts) who will probably save his life. I mean, what's the point. So we could have a cool high school zombie scene?

Will be addressed when people aren't worrying about Carl. More important questions were being addressed in the episode than 'why aren't there any zombies around here?'

That question matters to you because you're not personally attached to what's going on so you can ask the plot based questions free of emotional tension. Everyone that is at the farm is probably just glad they don't have to worry about it right now. So I don't see a problem. It'll likely get answered pretty soon.

Okay, I can dig that, but the whole premise is stupid. If Sophia is found to be healthy, of course the plot mechanics will be good enough to explain it. That doesn't make those plot mechanics good. Realistically, that girl is dead the first few hours she's in those woods.

Why? What's out there that's going to kill her? Has it been proven that it's swarming with zombies, or even with bears and man eating bobcats?

I've been camping before and never seen so much as an owl.

Sorry, but I patently disagree with your assessment that 'she'd be dead.' There is no way that's an absolute.

I would like the show to reflect that. I'm not watching the show to see people survive. I'm watching it to see people lose their mind and get killed, which is exactly what would happen in an apocalypse.

Most of them did. These are the people that didn't. Or haven't yet.

So maybe the show's fine and it's not giving you what you want. Maybe it has nothing to do withthe show at all.

I won't straw man you and actually act as though I'm attributing this preception to you, but it's a point to consider.

 

[SonGohan]

I'm not passing judgement because I don't see where it's all going before I declare it bad or good.

But I think we've learned enough about him through his actions to this point. We've learned as much as is natural for this type of story.

You've went from "we've learned a lot" to "we've learned as much as is natural." I can agree on the second statement. My disagreement was with your first. I can only pass judgement on what I've seen, not what I think, or hope I will see later on down the road.

I disagree with the complaints as I've read them, so I don't consider them valid objections to the show's quality.

So if you disagree with opinions, you can't consider them valid? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's exactly what I'm reading with that sentence up there. I disagree with yours, but I don't believe it to be any less valid of an opinion.

Why are you being a douche about this? Why have I 'convinced myself' about it?

Dude, dial it back. I have nothing against you. I just disagree with you about a TV show. Please stop with the passive aggressive. I like you well enough from what I see on this site.

If you feel I've insulted you with my words or thoughts, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent.

LOL - sorry if you think I'm being a douche. I thought we were having a decent discussion. If I was being a douche I'd just make fun of you and call it a day, but I have a lot of respect for you and your opinion, so I don't mind explaining myself. I don't know how else to say phrase the fact that you think Daryl's sudden cooperation within the group is going to lead to some character development payoff down the road any other way than you "convincing yourself." I don't feel you've insulted me in the slightest, but apparently you feel I've insulted you and I apologize; that wasn't my intent. I'm too stupid to be passive aggressive - I usually just say what's on my mind (which usually isn't much), like a dumb ox.

And my point was that people are going to complain when things 'move too slow' regardless of the media in which it's presented. But when the whole thing is seen in a finished form, it can be more accurately and fairly judged.

Who is saying I'm judging it any other way than what I view on a weekly basis? I never came out and said the second season was horrible. I have no way of judging that. I can, however, make valid criticisms on what I feel the second season has shown us thus far, and not tie it to the season as a whole. I think that's all I've done...

Because a TV show can be perfectly fine but not present anything to get me more enthused about it. I've watched plenty of TV shows I've 'liked' but didn't feel the need to really get excited about.

I love the Berserk anime. I love the Berserk comic. I love The Walking Dead comic (although less, lately.) Those are things I actually feel an emotional impact about.

The Walking Dead TV show is just a show I'm enjoying watching. Nothing more.

I hope that answers your question.

That question was tongue-in-cheek, to later tie into my opinion that I think so far, it's nothing more than average, which I cited your own examples, too. An average tv show can have problems, as well as be enjoyable.

Will be addressed when people aren't worrying about Carl. More important questions were being addressed in the episode than 'why aren't there any zombies around here?'

That question matters to you because you're not personally attached to what's going on so you can ask the plot based questions free of emotional tension. Everyone that is at the farm is probably just glad they don't have to worry about it right now. So I don't see a problem. It'll likely get answered pretty soon.

It already has been addressed. When Rick and the "Dr" are on the porch, Rick says this place looks untouched. He says they weren't unscathed and lost a few people. It's odd that they don't get a stray walker enough to know that you don't shoot it and attract others (as proven by the retarded hillbilly in the forest). It is possible to be emotionally tied into something and still make objective observations on things you feel are odd, or out of place.

Zombies are an emotional thing for me. I have nightmares about them - they are probably the only thing I'm truly afraid of. A possibility of a zombie outbreak scares the living shit out of me. So, when I watch this show, I am putting myself in their shoes. What would I do? How would I expect things to go down? I certainly wouldn't expect to be a couple miles from a doctor's house if a member of my party got shot, and one that magically doesn't have a single walker around it, despite seeing at least a few in the forest.

Why? What's out there that's going to kill her? Has it been proven that it's swarming with zombies, or even with bears and man eating bobcats?

I've been camping before and never seen so much as an owl.

Sorry, but I patently disagree with your assessment that 'she'd be dead.' There is no way that's an absolute.

Uuhhhhhh... what's out there that's going to kill her? How about flesh-eating zombies??? If she encounters even one, she lacks any sort of tools to deal with it, by either running away or killing it. That one zombie will follow her wherever she goes, and being a child, you can expect her to be screaming and attracting even more. So, yes, she should be dead. Try being 9, camping by yourself with zero supplies, and a handful of zombies in the forest. There's no absolute, but the probability of her dying is so high that when presented with anything else, even if it makes sense plot-wise, hurts the overall dark story that needs to be told, imo.

Most of them did. These are the people that didn't. Or haven't yet.

So maybe the show's fine and it's not giving you what you want. Maybe it has nothing to do withthe show at all.

I won't straw man you and actually act as though I'm attributing this preception to you, but it's a point to consider.

Just because I have complaints about the show doesn't mean I don't think it's "fine." I just think it could be better. Hell, I even said I enjoyed it. You're taking my words to mean that I don't like it and think the problems that it does have are so severe that it's ruining the show. I will say this - I feel everybody needs to die at some point. Kind of like the HBO series, Oz - you never knew who was going to die next. While Rick is the main character, much like Beecher in Oz, so many shitty things need to happen to him in order for it to work. In the comic, that happens. I hope it happens in the show. I think it would be cool if Carl died. Make that just another thing that pushes Rick to ultimately lose his mind.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just a dark person and I like it when shit like that happens. I think that's a far more fascinating story than kid shot - kid okay. Girl lost - girl found. Zombies come to house, group fights them off and leaves. Make the deaths count, and I think that is helped by having great character development. You want to be shocked when/if Shane dies, or Dale because they start to matter to you as people.

 

[Taiso]

You've went from "we've learned a lot" to "we've learned as much as is natural." I can agree on the second statement. My disagreement was with your first. I can only pass judgement on what I've seen, not what I think, or hope I will see later on down the road.

I guess to me, what we've learned about Daryl is both 'a lot' and 'enough for now.'

So if you disagree with opinions, you can't consider them valid? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's exactly what I'm reading with that sentence up there. I disagree with yours, but I don't believe it to be any less valid of an opinion.

I don't consider an opinion I find to be a wrong conclusion valid. Because I see it as an innacurate summation of the premise, I can't consider it beyond that.

But please don't take that to mean I don't feel people have nothing to say or that I should just write them off whenever I disagree. It just gets to a point where I feel my own reasoning, sometimes, is strong enough to stand up to counter-scrutiny. So if anybody ever feels I'm being haughty, I want to state here and now that I never actually feel that way.

Funny enough, I'm probably more passionate about this discussion than I am about the show itself. Wierd.

LOL - sorry if you think I'm being a douche. I thought we were having a decent discussion. If I was being a douche I'd just make fun of you and call it a day, but I have a lot of respect for you and your opinion, so I don't mind explaining myself. I don't know how else to say phrase the fact that you think Daryl's sudden cooperation within the group is going to lead to some character development payoff down the road any other way than you "convincing yourself." I don't feel you've insulted me in the slightest, but apparently you feel I've insulted you and I apologize; that wasn't my intent. I'm too stupid to be passive aggressive - I usually just say what's on my mind (which usually isn't much), like a dumb ox.

I do appreciate the clarification. I didn't know how you'd react to my 'douche' comments, and I'm glad you didn't completely blow up on me. I respect you quite a bit too, and definitely don't want to feel uncomfortable coming here and posting thoughts or discussing subjects with you. So it means a lot to me for you to express this the way you did. Thank you.

It already has been addressed. When Rick and the "Dr" are on the porch, Rick says this place looks untouched. He says they weren't unscathed and lost a few people. It's odd that they don't get a stray walker enough to know that you don't shoot it and attract others (as proven by the retarded hillbilly in the forest). It is possible to be emotionally tied into something and still make objective observations on things you feel are odd, or out of place.

But I don't think the scene handled the explanation poorly. Everyone's addled by their experiences, and for right now that's enough of an explanation for the characters. I just don't see Rick getting all particular with Herschel in that situation, at that moment in time. I think the brevity of the response could easily be passed off as nerves and tension working against the analytical mind.

Zombies are an emotional thing for me. I have nightmares about them - they are probably the only thing I'm truly afraid of. A possibility of a zombie outbreak scares the living shit out of me. So, when I watch this show, I am putting myself in their shoes. What would I do? How would I expect things to go down? I certainly wouldn't expect to be a couple miles from a doctor's house if a member of my party got shot, and one that magically doesn't have a single walker around it, despite seeing at least a few in the forest.

I can understand the motivation for you asking that particular question given your nighmares, to be honest. It definitely informs me better about why you might be asking it. You aren't the only person I've ever heard of having nightmares about zombies. I know people that simply won't play games like Resident Evil because of it.

I've always wanted to see a character in a zombie story with this exact fear. Humanity, historically, has dark mythology about ghouls and man eating undead and so forth, but the characters in these stories have to be written as though zombie stories don't exist in their world. Otherwsie, you've got self aware characters saying 'it's just like the movies and games!' and all but shattering the fourth wall.

That's kind of like why I really like I Am Legend (the story from which all this dystopian zombie fiction originates.) They're called 'vampires' in the story, but that's probably not exactly what they are. At least, not in the traditional sense. But that's the best association to make with them, given all the similarities.

Uuhhhhhh... what's out there that's going to kill her? How about flesh-eating zombies??? If she encounters even one, she lacks any sort of tools to deal with it, by either running away or killing it. That one zombie will follow her wherever she goes, and being a child, you can expect her to be screaming and attracting even more. So, yes, she should be dead.

But there's no evidence that she encountered any more zombies. It's never even hinted at. And that forest, amazingly, only had the three zombies so far. And those three might have strayed from the herd on the highway in the first episode. There might not actually be any 'native' zombies out there at all.

You could even further argue that the forest was 'safe' on the basis that Otis was out there hunting on his own, which he might not have been doing if it wasn't thought to be zombie free for some reason. You could even argue that the mere fact that there's game in the forest supports the 'zombie free' notion. I am not Ted Nugent (although I wish I was,) but my understanding of wildlife is that unnatural smells spook them. The zombies stink, and they don't stink like anything natural, so not even scavengers would stick around to eat badly rotting meat.

There are arguments that could be made, either way. But we don't know what Sophia's seen yet. It hasn't been revealed. Maybe she got picked up by someone else that will end up at the farm. Maybe she's zombie food. Maybe she got washed down stream to safety or something. Maybe Merle's got her. We don't really know yet. So we shouldn't be saying 'she should be dead' just yet.

Now, if she survives and it's a bullshit reason, I am right there with you in criticizing it as lazy writing.

Try being 9, camping by yourself with zero supplies, and a handful of zombies in the forest. There's no absolute, but the probability of her dying is so high that when presented with anything else, even if it makes sense plot-wise, hurts the overall dark story that needs to be told, imo.

See above.

Just because I have complaints about the show doesn't mean I don't think it's "fine." I just think it could be better. Hell, I even said I enjoyed it. You're taking my words to mean that I don't like it and think the problems that it does have are so severe that it's ruining the show. I will say this - I feel everybody needs to die at some point. Kind of like the HBO series, Oz - you never knew who was going to die next. While Rick is the main character, much like Beecher in Oz, so many shitty things need to happen to him in order for it to work. In the comic, that happens. I hope it happens in the show. I think it would be cool if Carl died. Make that just another thing that pushes Rick to ultimately lose his mind.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just a dark person and I like it when shit like that happens. I think that's a far more fascinating story than kid shot - kid okay. Girl lost - girl found. Zombies come to house, group fights them off and leaves. Make the deaths count, and I think that is helped by having great character development. You want to be shocked when/if Shane dies, or Dale because they start to matter to you as people.

Well, here's my take on the rampant death in zombie stories.

In zombie movies, we never really get to know the characters. The best (Romero) focus on establishing themes about human failiing, give us a small assortment of likeable and unlikeable characters, and them act according to the theme's premise and let the chips fall where they may.

But I don't really care about the characters that much. Personally, I'm more invested in the theme. That is what I attach myself to and what has meaning for me in a zombie movie.

But TWD is about the characters, and what they have to do to survive. In order for me to care about the characters, they need to be developed.

But they need to be developed naturally, and nothing should be rushed.

Right now, not a lot of time has passed in the story for the TV series. So there really isn't that much time or opportunity for the story to have those 'kitchen table' conversations. They're still separated and running like hell.

The comic book is very much the same way. It's long, decompressed and takes its sweet time. And that allows for the characters to reveal who they are in a more natural context. I never get the sense that 'this is a comic book, so we need to make sure to cram the point in by the end of the 22nd page.' It goes at a pace which the creator feels is natural. And to be honest, it's the magic of the comic. It's what makes it special and worth following.

I feel the TV series is trying to duplicate that. Much like the comic book, which I have learned to be patient with because it's just more rewarding to read it with that mindset, to consume each individual detail and glean worth fromit, the TV series seems to be trying to represent that same magic of the comic-telling the story at a deliberate and natural pace.

So that's why I don't feel the show is really missing any beats yet. It's, for better or for worse, a live action version of the comics.

The only big disappointment for me in the TV show so far is that I'm instantly turned away by certain characters and how they're being portrayed. Even some of the bitchy characters, like Lori and Donna, are interesting in the comic. I want to know why they act the way they do and so I pay attention to them. On the TV show, I just can't stand some of the characters.

On a tangent, but I think that's why I loved LOST so much when it was on (but now recognize all the problems with that show in retrospect.) I really liked all the characters and wanted to know more about them. Same goes for Game of Thrones (so much so that it made me read all the books afterwards-I'd already read the first one.) Even the assholes like Jamie Lannister...I want to know more about who they are and where they come from.

TWD just hasn't reproduced that attachment to some of the characters yet, and I don't think the pacing for the show has allowed for that. Given the scenario the characters are in, it's probably the most natural way for the story to flow, but it's created some attachment problems for me.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Hmm. I think I might stay out of this one, except to say this: I don't think this show is really worth a lot of in-depth discussion. It's just a show about zombies. I like it, but at the end of the day, we're all just in it for the action and drama, which doesn't really merit that much examination. It's no Game of Thrones, say.

 

[Taiso]

Hmm. I think I might stay out of this one, except to say this: I don't think this show is really worth a lot of in-depth discussion. It's just a show about zombies. I like it, but at the end of the day, we're all just in it for the action and drama, which doesn't really merit that much examination. It's no Game of Thrones, say.

Game of Thrones is a vastly better show, IMO. It's able to rely on the intrigues of a decadent society up to their throats in politics to enhance its plot and presentation. It's simply a much bigger sandlot and more deftly handled to boot.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Fuck yeah, I loved that show. It's probably my favourite show on TV right now. My only worry about it is running out of money and ending too early, but apparently the first season was wildly successful.

 

[SonGohan]

I agree with a lot of your post, Taiso, but there's also things I disagree with. No need to go back and forth beating each other over the head with our views. I will hop on the Game of Thrones bandwagon, though. That show is so deep I had to watch the first season twice because I simply wasn't "getting" everything on my first viewing.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Yeah. Anyone who likes the idea of high fantasy and/or political drama at all ought to watch Game of Thrones. It's utterly jaw dropping pretty much from top to bottom. Stuff like Walking Dead is nice, but Game of Thrones is superb.

 

[Castor Troy]

You know, thedudeguy, we could totally hang out and drink beer and watch tv. It would be cool. No lonesage.

Lol!!
Tried for several days to come up with something funny/clever to respond to this, but I couldn't.
We both know as long as Sage walks the earth, it won't be possible.

 

[lithy]

So, I thought this was a really, really solid episode. Acting was all really solid this time, no goofy moments. The suspense was a bit for naught though since I don't think anyone could really buy that Carl might die.

The ending sequence was good and should set up some good tension among the main group should it ever come out. Not to mention the farm group if they continue to spend any time there.

I do like that they are bringing Glenn back into the show, I hope it continues. I thought he was an awesome character in the pilot and initial few episodes, then he just fell off the map.

Again, this comes from someone who has never read the comics.

 

[cdamm]

only a minor deviation from the comics .

well that was different.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

I actually thought this episode moved the show from fun but dumb to just plain dumb.

I thought it was just plain boring until the last five minutes, and you can't have a show that's only entertaining for five minutes out of every hour. Everything seemed to take forever -- what should have been a 5-10 minute scene where Shane and Otis go back to the house takes all day, because it's interspliced with a bunch of scenes featuring things we already know (Rick and Lori worried about Carl) or things we don't care about (Darryl and Andrea going for a little midnight jaunt).

Speaking of which, they go wandering around in the woods waving flashlights around and absolutely nothing happens? Nothing at all? I have to call bullshit on that one. Why should I be concerned with the zombies as a threat if they can't even go after a couple idiots wandering around in pitch darkness waving flashlights all over the place?

It just seems dumb to me. Shane seems like a badass, but suddenly turns incompetent when it comes time to hit the high school. Zombies attack, but only incredibly sparingly, and I guess they really hate farms, because they're nowhere to be seen there. What kind of zombie apocalypse is it when you can just chill out on the porch with no fear whatsoever of what might happen?

I think the acting has been getting better, but the writing on this show is just plain bad. I have no investment at all in the characters, so I don't care if they're just going to stand around and wax philosophic for an hour. They need some action to spice this up, and I don't think we're going to get it.