NGF's New Neo Release Revealed!

[m_bish0p]

so, if there are games written in the 6800 language, where does the Z80 come in? When I was coding for the original GameBoy, it was all z80. Then I did some work in 8086, and now I'm working with the PIC-16f977 microcontroller.

basically, I'm sure I can pick up 6800 code, but I thought the Neo was a tandum system with a 6800 and z80? I know some Z80, but how do they work together? Am I wrong about the neo all together?

I would love some PM's about all this. There was a HUGE site for working with the GameBoy and a really active list that basically went under when the GBC and GBA came out. I'd love to have this kind of hobbie again!! Please will someone start a dev board?

 

[Bluevoodu]

We could start an Ezboard for developing neo geo games .... and other games for other systems.

What would you think about that?


†B†V†

 

[HPMAN]

Originally posted by m_bish0p:
<strong>basically, I'm sure I can pick up 6800 code, but I thought the Neo was a tandum system with a 6800 and z80? I know some Z80, but how do they work together? Am I wrong about the neo all together?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Z80 is handled by the M1 ROM, which seems to be basically a driver. I don't think you need to rewrite the Z80 ROM for each game. Or maybe you just need to changes tunes, not driver code. (there's various revisions, open a M1 ROM withing an hex editor you'll see a revision #)

I may be wrong but that's what come to me after looking into neo ROM files.

 

[sha-v]

Originally posted by HPMAN:
<strong>

Z80 is handled by the M1 ROM, which seems to be basically a driver. I don't think you need to rewrite the Z80 ROM for each game. Or maybe you just need to changes tunes, not driver code. (there's various revisions, open a M1 ROM withing an hex editor you'll see a revision #)

I may be wrong but that's what come to me after looking into neo ROM files.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are right. If you for eg. extract strings form a M1 rom you will get something like that: Sound Driver(ROM)Ver 1.9 00/03/22 To SNK

But the driver is copyrighted by Playmore.

 

[i shot jr]

unless you're going for a cd release, theres no way you'll be able to spare enough rom space to fit sampled music onboard (from reason, rebirth, your guitar or whatever) - the actual figure escapes me, but 1 minute of 44kz 16 bit mono sound takes up about 2.5mb so a few low samplerate drum hits might be your limit. You'll be needing to use the neos onboard soundchip to provide most of the sound if you're going aes/mvs.

If you still think a dev kit is in order, go ask at <a href="http://pub39.ezboard.com/fassembler19279frm1" target="_blank">http://pub39.ezboard.com/fassembler19279frm1</a> , they should know about that sort of thing.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: i shot jr ]</p>

 

[Clear Paper]

If you look at the proto '99 rom images (remember the updatable flash roms on the daughter board in the early release), you'll see that Borland C++ was used.

I reckon it'd be better to start with 68k asm and to debug an existing cart. Something small like Gururin or Puzzled. Starting with C/C++ when you don't know squat about the 68k and the Neo is quite pointless. And not to burst your bubble, it's going to take quite some understanding.

Looks like Neo development has got us by the balls, eh?

 

[JMKurtz]

The Z80 is the sound processor. It sends commands to the YM2610 chip. It's the sound driver. It feeds FM sequences (music) and tells what samples to play. The Z80 code is pretty generic, it's the music sequencing that's the tough part.

The sound samples are stored at 18.5kHz and are mono (for ADPCM-A).

What I need to find is someone that knows Z80 and FM sound programming I'm working on it, but would go a lot quicker with someone that knew what they were doing. I have no real clue about FM synthesis.

Jeff

 

[i shot jr]

theres some stuff on fm here: <a href="http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/apr00/articles/synthsecrets.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/apr00/articles/synthsecrets.htm</a> and here: <a href="http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/may00/articles/synth.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/may00/articles/synth.htm</a>

rather you than me though mate.

 

[m_bish0p]

okay, so the Z80 just plays the sound files, and you can access them through some standard way by with the 6800. That makes sense.

also, about working with c/c++ before assembly. I actually found that compiling my own simple programs with a free compiler, and then looking at the generated assembler was a great way to get an understanding of how the z80 worked. I found a freeware compiler that actually put in some really simple comments like 'this section compares these two numbers' and it made it a little easier than just jumping right in.

If it's a good C compiler, with the right libriaries, then there's no good reason you couldn't write a simple game without any assembly at all. If it has no libriaries, then you'll be mixing languages pretty fast, and that's harder for me than just chosing assembly from the start and coding it all in that.

If someone developed a BUNG type cart for the Neo-Geo, would people be interested or just offended? I like the idea of a home-brew arcade community, but the BUNG carts for the GB were mostly used to pirate games. I never understood why people didn't just play the ROMZ like everyone else.

Anyway, it's just an idea. I could look at what a simple Flash programmer would cost to build, and exactly wich chips would have to be programmed, but all that is usually fairly standard.

just an idea, anyway.

 

[Megatron X]

Originally posted by Gamefan:
<strong>Do you know if someone programed that game on actually NEO GEO hardware. Reason I ask is I would love to find someone or something to help me make "real" NEO GEO games. Like a development kit or something.

GAMEFAN</strong><hr></blockquote>

I myself am looking for a Neo-Geo AES development kit too, but I can't find one . I tried, but failed. The same goes for a PSX development kit.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Megatron X ]</p>

 

[RabbitTroop]

Originally posted by m_bish0p:
<strong>okay, so the Z80 just plays the sound files, and you can access them through some standard way by with the 6800. That makes sense.

also, about working with c/c++ before assembly. I actually found that compiling my own simple programs with a free compiler, and then looking at the generated assembler was a great way to get an understanding of how the z80 worked. I found a freeware compiler that actually put in some really simple comments like 'this section compares these two numbers' and it made it a little easier than just jumping right in.

If it's a good C compiler, with the right libriaries, then there's no good reason you couldn't write a simple game without any assembly at all. If it has no libriaries, then you'll be mixing languages pretty fast, and that's harder for me than just chosing assembly from the start and coding it all in that.

If someone developed a BUNG type cart for the Neo-Geo, would people be interested or just offended? I like the idea of a home-brew arcade community, but the BUNG carts for the GB were mostly used to pirate games. I never understood why people didn't just play the ROMZ like everyone else.

Anyway, it's just an idea. I could look at what a simple Flash programmer would cost to build, and exactly wich chips would have to be programmed, but all that is usually fairly standard.

just an idea, anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yeah, I would love to see a Bung type device for neo programming, that would be sweet... but a lot of people would use it to pirate And the Bung carts are usually Flash RAM, with that dropping in price you could easily get 128MEG of RAM (bigger then any Neo cart available, and probably past system spec). Anyway, that would be incredible, but I doubt it is going to ever happen... plus like I said, everyone would use it to pirate games!

-Nick

 

[m_bish0p]

well, unless there's something I don't know that's special about neo, wich is all together possible, I don't see why building one would be that hard.

Really, all the Bung carts were just flash-rom replacements with the write-pins connected. It's not like it's rocket science. I don't know much about the neo hardware in particular, but unless it's alien technology, it's gotta be like the stuff I work with every day.

I'm not much more than a garage engineer right now, as my training was in software. I work with a guy who's done radio work for Motorola and the Government, along with a lot of hardware for Penn State. Right now we're working on building some custom hardware for them to take to antarctica. With his help, I think I could probably do it.

I just don't want to go through the work, and cost, just to find out that people are going to flame the hell out of me for it. If no one is going to appreciate it, then to hell with it.

 

[sha-v]

For those who are interesting in M68k development, maybe that is a good starting point for you (if you not already know):
<a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MC68000" target="_blank">http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MC68000</a>

Btw, did they used different MC68 on their boards? (packaging, power consumtion) or is always the HC000FN used?

I guess a new forum for NG development should be created

 

[td741]

Although it might not be the same and as glamourous as a BUNG cart, but there's always the possibility of using CD-R's and a NEOCD for developement as well. I wonder if the NeoCD will take CDRW's.

 

[Tacitus]

Originally posted by td741:
<strong>Although it might not be the same and as glamourous as a BUNG cart, but there's always the possibility of using CD-R's and a NEOCD for developement as well. I wonder if the NeoCD will take CDRW's.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think it will. Due to the HK SIlvers not working onthem

 

[Takumaji]

Originally posted by td741:
<strong>Although it might not be the same and as glamourous as a BUNG cart, but there's always the possibility of using CD-R's and a NEOCD for developement as well. I wonder if the NeoCD will take CDRW's.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good point. And no, the Neo CD does not accept CD-RWs. It's an old drive, that's why.

 

[evil wasabi]

on cdrws - i bet if you open the neo cd, and look on the drive, usually on the little box thing that goes along the track, that has the lense and the laser, there will be a screw of some sorts which regulates the intensity. if you turn it up a bit, it should read cdrw's, but unless you get it just right, it might not read cds/cdrs untill you turn it back.

as far as a bung type devie goes - why would you need one? wouldnt it be cheaper and more efficent to program it on the pc, and then test it with an emulator? wasting all the time/money on a copier wouldnt be worth it. once your done with the game, then all you need is a eprom burner, and some eproms and your set.

did i mention i'd be willing to help anyone on any aspect of their games except the programming i could do graphics, sound, level design, etc. just no programming.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: sonic1687 ]</p>

 

[cox_xoc]

Kids, kids, kids. The hint was shown earlier in this post to you. NIGHTMARE TONY has programmed for NEO GEO. I talked to him for a few hours about it before. He says it is very easy actually, and to get any real success ONLY use ASM. He has the tech docs of how to program for the custom chips and all kids. Plus to test the games on the aes/mvs developers were provided a "Developers Cartridge" It was larger (to have memory for huge games for testing w/ debug etc.) and filled with eeproms. Testing is as easy as a burn and test. No emu shit (but that would be cheaper for home peeps. BTW he uses a Apple ][ GS for neo dev Old school eh? He said he never has a crash that way, and it works with his Sluggo rom emulator to burn eeproms with.

AT JEFF KURTZ: Nightmare Tony said his fav part of any game development is music. He told me he would love to do music on your games if you would let him. He knows the hardware, and could probably be a big help to you guys.

Hope this helps you all out, and Tony, if you see this, sorry for the almost positive email flood you will receive. He has AIM too: NightmareTony.

Have fun guys,
Josh

 

[Takumaji]

sonic1687, it's very likely that you mess up your Neo CD by fiddling with the stepper motor cueing, but that's another story. I don't believe that you could force the NGCD to accept CD-RWs this way.

Anyway, you're right, it's much more efficient and time-saving to code a new Neo game on PC and test it on Mame or Neorage, at least for the home-brew developer. I think it's useless to hunt for one of the legendary SNK devkits (do they exit at all?), because it would cost a fortune to get one of them.

After all, it's home coding we're talking about. I already mentioned that Playmore is not too fond of the amateur Neo coder scene (see the end of NeoDev), such investments in private Neo developement may tear a bigger hole in your pocket than you think...

 

[m_bish0p]

Well, I had a cart for my GB for dev just because the emulators would allow code that the actual GB would not. Also, it's really easy to show off to friends when you have your own game running on your own machine.

It sounds like Nintendo and Playmore talked about this tegether. When I was playing with the GB, there was no support and often talk of lawsuits against everyone on the list. I guess these companies just love to hate thier fans.

Anyway, I just talked it over with my boss, and he told me to build one(a dev cart). I plan on it for home use only, we don't build things here, we design them. I would probably have the only one, but my boss is pushing it because it would give me more experience with schematics and digital hardware, two things he thinks I should learn more about and wants to encourage.

With that said, does anyone have the schematics for a cart with notes? It looks like your basic ROM+mulplexer set up, but I'm sure there's a little more to it than that. I don't want to repeate someone else's hard work, so anything anyone could PM me about the hardware and software side of this would be greatly appreciated!

JMkurtz, what have you written and how do you suggest someone with prior assembly experience get started with the MVS? 6800 code isn't that bad, but what about the custom sprite handling and stuff like that? There were addons to the z80 for the GB,sorta, are there special opcodes for the MVS 68k?

thanks!

 

[Bluevoodu]

well right now I am assembling a team... I am asking around, finding out as much as i can.

about the 44.1khz music... Don't record that high.....but you are somewhat right..... I think that 44.zkhz @ 16 bit is more along the lines of 20.3 megs large. At least when I was doing recording it is... that is straight .wav format. You can get a sample and do a few layers, and recording space isn't more.... so 1 layer = drums, and other layer = Guitar. It could work out. The music/SFX will be that last part we do.
I now have 2 people for music and SFX... but I have no one to help with the coding of a sidescroll shooter. I need get D/L Blazing star and pulstar.. and check out their coding.... how ever the heck I do that... fun stuff

YES, we am going to go for a CD release. This is going to take awhile though. I have to learn how to do this first... it is very pain staking if you ask me... but as luther said "I HAVE A DREAM" lol

†B†V†

 

[JMKurtz]

m_bishop - I have the schematics to the MVS system which I can provide for you. They are kinda tough to read, but may be of help on your project.

Building a flash cart should be pretty straight forward. If I were to take on the task, I would aim to use parts that were already available. I would make it so that it used the GBA flash carts for the P, V, and C roms. Then devise something for the M1 and S1. Then you could use the Linker as your flash programmer and then just plug in the flash carts into the Neo cart that is wired to accept these carts rather than dip roms. Plus you can easily get the source code to the Linker's software which you could then easily modify to work with the standard ROM formats.

Honestly, I'm suprised !Arcade! hasn't made a cart like this already (or have they?) It's pretty simple (in theory). And with the new 512Mb flash carts out now for the GBA, it would be even easier -- so one would think. It would take two of these 512Mb carts to cover the capacity of any Neo game's graphics to date. For V, you would need 128Mb, and for P, you would need 64Mb(?). You would need to work something out for S1 & M1, but that should be too hard since those are very small.

Jeff

 

[JMKurtz]

Doing music on the CD is very simple -- you simply make a call into the BIOS to play a CD Audio track. Playing samples is pretty trivial too, although I need to improve our driver. It's the FM sequencing that I just haven't been able to master yet.

For debugging a game (68000 and Z80), use MAME. You can just step through a game while it's running.

As for tech info on sprite registers, etc -- look at the MAME source code. There is a ton of valuable info in there... I can't stress that enough. MAME is the perfect testing tool for the homebrew programmer!!

Jeff

Originally posted by Bluevoodu:
<strong>well right now I am assembling a team... I am asking around, finding out as much as i can.

about the 44.1khz music... Don't record that high.....but you are somewhat right..... I think that 44.zkhz @ 16 bit is more along the lines of 20.3 megs large. At least when I was doing recording it is... that is straight .wav format. You can get a sample and do a few layers, and recording space isn't more.... so 1 layer = drums, and other layer = Guitar. It could work out. The music/SFX will be that last part we do.
I now have 2 people for music and SFX... but I have no one to help with the coding of a sidescroll shooter. I need get D/L Blazing star and pulstar.. and check out their coding.... how ever the heck I do that... fun stuff

YES, we am going to go for a CD release. This is going to take awhile though. I have to learn how to do this first... it is very pain staking if you ask me... but as luther said "I HAVE A DREAM" lol

†B†V†</strong><hr></blockquote>

 

[m_bish0p]

kurtz, please PM me with a link or anything you have.

actually, what I was thinking was getting some flash chips with an in-curciut programming feature, then using a pic16f877 conected to a computer through a MAX202 for a serial connection. Then I could just download the address, and info, to the PIC and let that burn the flash. That way all I have to do is connect my laptop to the cart while it's seated in the MVS system.

This saves me ordering two boards, and they'll be the most expensive part of the project by far!! Besides, the pics are cheap and easy to program!

anyone know where I could get a clam-shell for this thing when it comes to it? I hate the idea of ruining an SNK product to put my own solder junk in it. Maybe an already dead cart or something someone would sell me cheap? I'm not there yet, but it doesn't hurt to ask!

 

[Daisuke Jigen]

Jeff: pelease check your Private Messages.