'Last Hope' Central thread
- Thread starter NG:DEV.TEAM
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Makismo
Ghost of Captain Kidd
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Atrophyed said:
If this is a serious thread, then why are you acting like a dickface? I didn't start the flame war here dude. I asked a simple question about the meg count and I have idiots attacking me for no good reason. I will keep the peace if the majority of you will shut the fuck up.
Makismo
Ghost of Captain Kidd
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Atrophyed said:My god!!!! IS that a result of the Man Utd paranoia ?
Blazing Star ownz this for free any hour of the day.
How the hell would you know? Have you ever played Last Hope? I didn't think so. Wait till you play the game before you pass judgement.
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I was wondering about the music.
I kind of like the music in the vid - it has a mellow, emotional feel that works well with shooters IMO.
Is it from a particular stage, or is it just generic music that was thrown in for the vid?
I kind of like the music in the vid - it has a mellow, emotional feel that works well with shooters IMO.
Is it from a particular stage, or is it just generic music that was thrown in for the vid?
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NG:DEV.TEAM said:
Once the Bios jumps into the game region (JMP 0x122) are you then not using any BIOS functions? I was just wondering about the call into the bios from VBLANK that handles controller inputs etc and writes the values into the top of RAM etc (JSR 0xC0044A). It may seem like a strange question to ask but I'm just wondering about Universe Bios compatability and a couple of other things.
Raz
Vektorlogic Ltd
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You can use the BIOS calls - just avoid using the BIOS power up screens and sounds - in fact you need to permit the BIOS to function correctly to ensure compatibility with everything else in the system - eg multi slot handling etc etc - so there's no need to overcomplicate it :-)
Jeff F
Jeff F
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Vektorlogic Ltd said:
Yes I know this but I was asking if last hope did this or not because NG.DEV.TEAM's message said 'we are not using on purpose any BIOS functions of SNK' which to me meant once the JMP 0x122 was called the bios was not called again as that would be calling SNK code again.
Raz
NG:DEV.TEAM
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Yes we are not calling any BIOS function in our current AES build. On AES the BIOS is quite useless, as we can handle all these little things easily ourselves.
MVS is another story, the upcoming MVS relase will use BIOS regulary (for multislot etc.). We decided for legal reason not to call SNK properitary code. I'm not sure how legal it would be calling SNK BIOS function, can someone go into legal details here? Jeff F or Bobak?
Also we had run Last Hope a couple of tests with a custom made BIOS (some inits + IRQs + etc + JMP to 0x122), just for fun
MVS is another story, the upcoming MVS relase will use BIOS regulary (for multislot etc.). We decided for legal reason not to call SNK properitary code. I'm not sure how legal it would be calling SNK BIOS function, can someone go into legal details here? Jeff F or Bobak?
Also we had run Last Hope a couple of tests with a custom made BIOS (some inits + IRQs + etc + JMP to 0x122), just for fun
Infamous Lunchbox
New Challenger
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Maybe I am a retard, but I didn't read all of this, nor did I see on your site: how much? I will buy a MVS copy on release, if you indeed do a MVS release.
VinylBoy
Vanessa's Drinking Buddy,
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Makismo said:
Ironically, you'd pass judgement on the very same game without playing it if the meg count wasn't high enough for you.
For the sake of the messageboard (and our sanity), just stop with the finger pointing and your phony "high standards". Especially when you consider that Magician Lord, Money Idol Exchanger, Panic Bomberman and both Puzzle Bobbles are under 100 Megs and are not only some of the most fun Neo Geo games out there, but are some of the most popular next to the obvious hits.
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As far as I know you will have no problem calling any of the Bios code on either MVS or AES as the code is part of the system and not part of a game. The problem would be storing SNK tiles in either the S ROM or C ROMs of the game.
Don't take my word for it though because to be honest I'm no expert on such matters but the above seems quite logical to me. For example, if your going to worry about the code on the Bios then then in theory you sould also be worried about using the SNK custom chips to display gfx on screen.
It does mean though that if your not calling the normal Bios function in VBLANK then thr Universe Bios will not be able to be used for cheats. If your going to use the Bios functions in the MVS version I suggest you use them in the AES version also to keep things uniform. While the Bios code may not be super fast, there are other advantages to using it esp when it comes to multislot I think its a must.
Raz
Don't take my word for it though because to be honest I'm no expert on such matters but the above seems quite logical to me. For example, if your going to worry about the code on the Bios then then in theory you sould also be worried about using the SNK custom chips to display gfx on screen.
It does mean though that if your not calling the normal Bios function in VBLANK then thr Universe Bios will not be able to be used for cheats. If your going to use the Bios functions in the MVS version I suggest you use them in the AES version also to keep things uniform. While the Bios code may not be super fast, there are other advantages to using it esp when it comes to multislot I think its a must.
Raz
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Makismo said:
haha. the Megadrive was not a piece of shit. you show your lack of respect for other consoles here. pathetic.
you go ahead and pay $700 for a game if you like.....and I will play with my ROMZ and enjoy them, and save a shitload of cash, you asshat.
Vektorlogic Ltd
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There isn't a problem making BIOS calls - already looked into that some time ago - and I would suggest making BIOS calls from AES too, to keep things common across the platforms (for the reasons that you state Raz).
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Vektorlogic Ltd said:
I agree totally. I know it would be a pain but I would suggest that they hold off releasing to rewrite parts of the game to use the Bios (including the AES version).
There are some things the Bios does that are quite handy. For example when the Bios jumps into 0x122 there are a few different options the game can do from that point. From what I remember off hand...
1) Check backupram for gamedata and if not there init some.
2) Pull data from backupRAM (including games softDIPs)
3) Start attract mode
4) Show title page with countdown after coin inserted (timer set in cab softdips)
5) How to play info
6) Start game play.
Like you mentioned before its very important that the Bios knows what the game is doing at all times from the above when it comes to multislot support.
Vektorlogic, I'm not sure if you can talk about this but would I be right in thinking that your devkit includes all the info to fully use the bios and all addresses the Bios uses at the top of RAM (store button presses for example)?
Raz
Vektorlogic Ltd
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Yep
Drop me a PM with your phone number on or e-mail address and we can chat about it - might have some things that you may be interested in
Jeff F
Drop me a PM with your phone number on or e-mail address and we can chat about it - might have some things that you may be interested in
Jeff F
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SNK PLAYMORE & NEO-GEO BIOS
But this is the actual problem Razoola. Of course the neo-geo bios is "handy". The task of coding a homebrew game from scratch is multiplied in difficulty and time consumption when development is forced to include writing a new bios or even just by-passing the current bios. As well as etching new cartridge circuit boards, molding new cart shells, and having new boxes built, etc.
Nobody WANTS these time consuming "extra work" things to be done on this and/or any future homebrew releases. But ALLEGEDLY, these things are "REQUIRED" in order to ensure that SNK PLAYMORE does not pursue develepors for copyright infringement and other such legal actions. I say "ALLEGEDLY" because I think both Jeffs (Vektorlogic and Neobitz), as well as the German Neo Dev Group, and all other such dev teams are caught in a TiMe WaRp! Eh, let me explain...
We are approaching 2006. The 1990 NEO-GEO was "abandoned" in July of 2004. As far as I am concerned, it's done. Just like the Atari 2600, Colecovision, etc. the parent company (inventor) has quit the project. That means they have no say in the matters anymore. As far as I am concerned, SNK PLaymore is about as usefull to me (us) as an empty beer can. Just throw it over your shoulder into the trash. Yes, these guys were paranoid and blood thirsty a few years back and poor patsys like NGF and World Wide Video fell victim to their last attacks. But that bite is now GONE and all thta is left is MAYBE a small bark. They have MOVED ON. They are onto atomiswave, ps2, xbox, gameboy, etc. I don't think they give a crap anymore about the neo-geo...be it home, mvs, cd, or whatever. So forget them. They don't count anymore.
As I see it, developing a game that works on neo-geo hardware is the same thing as making a video tape that works on VHS format. Who the FUCK is JVC to tell you that you cannot build a cassette that uses THEIR proprietary gears in the VCR or that uses THEIR video display chip on the board, etc. FUCK THEM. I think the dev teams need to froget about any legal issues because they are simply not there. It is damn hard enough to program a game, let alone to do so without being able to take every shortcut possible. SNK made their money on this hardware, and SNK lost their money too. But win or lose, they are OUT OF THE PICTURE NOW.
(maybe if they would return my emails I would have some respect for them but it seems they have pride issues)
Anyhow, that is my two cents on the BIOS and such.
Oh and for the record, Playmore here needs to keep in mind that the MONEY is not there anyhow! NOBODY is making a dime off this old out-dated hardware. If you really sit down and take into account whats involved, I promise you that there is no profit being made. If you were to add it all up, a FAIR wage for the HOURS of programming, art work, coding, etc. for what it took the designers to make the game, then the assembling, handling, shipping, etc. Even if they sold 50 copies at $1,000 a piece, they wouldn't be making shit. They would barely cut even. People who "work" on homebrew projects have a LIFE and a real JOB. They do all thta crap in their spare time when they SHOULD be spending it with their family. It is a MAJOR SACRIFICE and what little money (IF ANY) they see come from it does not compensate them for their time invested and is usually just chaneled into making their next project even better and bolder. The point here is, nobody is making money off of SNK's abandoned hardware. So EVEN IF that was Playmores concern, they can lay it to rest.
Razoola said:
But this is the actual problem Razoola. Of course the neo-geo bios is "handy". The task of coding a homebrew game from scratch is multiplied in difficulty and time consumption when development is forced to include writing a new bios or even just by-passing the current bios. As well as etching new cartridge circuit boards, molding new cart shells, and having new boxes built, etc.
Nobody WANTS these time consuming "extra work" things to be done on this and/or any future homebrew releases. But ALLEGEDLY, these things are "REQUIRED" in order to ensure that SNK PLAYMORE does not pursue develepors for copyright infringement and other such legal actions. I say "ALLEGEDLY" because I think both Jeffs (Vektorlogic and Neobitz), as well as the German Neo Dev Group, and all other such dev teams are caught in a TiMe WaRp! Eh, let me explain...
We are approaching 2006. The 1990 NEO-GEO was "abandoned" in July of 2004. As far as I am concerned, it's done. Just like the Atari 2600, Colecovision, etc. the parent company (inventor) has quit the project. That means they have no say in the matters anymore. As far as I am concerned, SNK PLaymore is about as usefull to me (us) as an empty beer can. Just throw it over your shoulder into the trash. Yes, these guys were paranoid and blood thirsty a few years back and poor patsys like NGF and World Wide Video fell victim to their last attacks. But that bite is now GONE and all thta is left is MAYBE a small bark. They have MOVED ON. They are onto atomiswave, ps2, xbox, gameboy, etc. I don't think they give a crap anymore about the neo-geo...be it home, mvs, cd, or whatever. So forget them. They don't count anymore.
As I see it, developing a game that works on neo-geo hardware is the same thing as making a video tape that works on VHS format. Who the FUCK is JVC to tell you that you cannot build a cassette that uses THEIR proprietary gears in the VCR or that uses THEIR video display chip on the board, etc. FUCK THEM. I think the dev teams need to froget about any legal issues because they are simply not there. It is damn hard enough to program a game, let alone to do so without being able to take every shortcut possible. SNK made their money on this hardware, and SNK lost their money too. But win or lose, they are OUT OF THE PICTURE NOW.
(maybe if they would return my emails I would have some respect for them but it seems they have pride issues)
Anyhow, that is my two cents on the BIOS and such.
Oh and for the record, Playmore here needs to keep in mind that the MONEY is not there anyhow! NOBODY is making a dime off this old out-dated hardware. If you really sit down and take into account whats involved, I promise you that there is no profit being made. If you were to add it all up, a FAIR wage for the HOURS of programming, art work, coding, etc. for what it took the designers to make the game, then the assembling, handling, shipping, etc. Even if they sold 50 copies at $1,000 a piece, they wouldn't be making shit. They would barely cut even. People who "work" on homebrew projects have a LIFE and a real JOB. They do all thta crap in their spare time when they SHOULD be spending it with their family. It is a MAJOR SACRIFICE and what little money (IF ANY) they see come from it does not compensate them for their time invested and is usually just chaneled into making their next project even better and bolder. The point here is, nobody is making money off of SNK's abandoned hardware. So EVEN IF that was Playmores concern, they can lay it to rest.
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SuperGun said:
Bypassing the current bios is simple, you simply don't jump into it once the first opcode in the game cart is executed. They currently have done this as mentioned in another post.
We are not on about writing a new bios. We are talking about using the bios thats already there. Changing the code to use the bios isnt actually as hard as it sounds anyway depending on the structure of the current game.
SuperGun said:
The only thing required is to make sure the SNK tiles for the NeoGeo logo in the C and S ROMs are not included in the cart and they have already done this. Using the rest of the Bios code is allowed and alreay confirmed by jeff. Also using the Bios is less time consuming providing you know how it works (which people do).
Once you understand how to use the Bios it makes programming any future homebrew game for the system that much easier too.
Raz
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