'Last Hope' Central thread

[Ely13]

How much do you think it costs to manufacture a cartridge then - just the physical costs - i am intrigued by this one -

Q1 - lets say 1000 units (how much per unit)

Q2 - let's say 100 units (how much per unit)

This will be an interesting sidestreet to the thread - with security - not including development costs for the actual game - that means you have to include PCB design - tooling - plastics - 3D modelling - lazer cutting - and finally PCB manufacture - security programming - CE/UL certification - art design and printing, PCB manufacture, SMD assembly, Through-hole insertion, Wave flow work, Testing, Repair (if required), packaging, art production and printing, shipping costs - come on - think about it and give it your best shot - let's have some realistic assessments of this.

2c

Jeff F

Assuming your response was serious, not to denigrate what you wrote but such a discussion would be about as silly as the thread on 'how much does it cost to make a supergun?'.

Given the state of PCB manufacturing, I'd be surprised if one couldn't contact a company in Taiwan or such, give them the desired schematic (and the engineers there are more than experienced enough to give their own recommendations) along with the data and have them produce however many units as requested. Unless someone here has actually been involved in printing hundreds/thousands of circuitboards, I don't think you're going to get much of a serious answer for 'how much will it cost per unit for Q(100) NG boards as opposed to per-unit for Q(1000)?'

That said, I am hugely skeptical that manufacturing costs justify a $600-700 asking price. 10-20 years ago, maybe, but this is pretty old technology now.

 

[galfordo]

Do you mean the fixed costs associated with manufacturing the boards, cases, instructions, etc.? I can't imagine that they would be terribly high.

I was thinking that the costs for carts to be sac'd would be pretty high. Depending on whether they'll use actual snap-lock cases or not, those could add up too.

The only reason I can see for it is exclusivity. I would be surprised if they can find 50-100 who'd buy a homebrew for this cost, however.

Same here, but you never know.

 

[Vektorlogic Ltd]

Assuming your response was serious, not to denigrate what you wrote but such a discussion would be about as silly as the thread on 'how much does it cost to make a supergun?'.

Given the state of PCB manufacturing, I'd be surprised if one couldn't contact a company in Taiwan or such, give them the desired schematic (and the engineers there are more than experienced enough to give their own recommendations) along with the data and have them produce however many units as requested. Unless someone here has actually been involved in printing hundreds/thousands of circuitboards, I don't think you're going to get much of a serious answer for 'how much will it cost per unit for Q(100) NG boards as opposed to per-unit for Q(1000)?'

That said, I am hugely skeptical that manufacturing costs justify a $600-700 asking price. 10-20 years ago, maybe, but this is pretty old technology now.

OK -valid point - to do a project from scratch is going to cost around £35k or $56k - before you pay for production costs and parts ( and I can speak from experience on that front - and that is doing a lot of it on the cheap and in-house, using part timers and unis etc for the work)

Q1 - 100 units = $560 + about $100 parts + programming and coding times etc + costs

Q2 - 1000 units = $56 + 100 + programming coding etc

Clearly the more you do the better it gets and the more games you do etc etc - these aren't made up figures - trust me - my bank manager (and ex wife :-) ) will verify these for you - it's really not cost-effective to develop for neo from scratch...... but....... we do it. And if you don't want to buy them, then don't - simple as that. And if you have something to say, then maybe it would be better to try to be constructive ( I know I always tune off whenever I see the word 'Fran'), and it shows a little more maturity when you can do this as opposed to the simple '2-word' negative quickie ( you will learn that quickies aren't necessarily the best thing as time goes on )

So - answered my own question there - damn!

5c

Jeff F

 

[Ely13]

I was thinking that the costs for carts to be sac'd would be pretty high. Depending on whether they'll use actual snap-lock cases or not, those could add up too.

Worst comes to worst, they can just ship the AES snap-lock case insert without an actual box and let buyers either sacrifice a game they don't care about or save on costs. Conversely, to argue against my own point, it sounds like that would defeat the purpose of this project... to create an unique collectable. Anyway, I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, and perhaps I'm underestimating the number of Makismo's currently in the AES market but I think the Last Hope devs are being a bit too idealistic about things.

OK -valid point - to do a project from scratch is going to cost around £35k or $56k - before you pay for production costs and parts ( and I can speak from experience on that front - and that is doing a lot of it on the cheap and in-house, using part timers and unis etc for the work)

Q1 - 100 units = $560 + about $100 parts + programming and coding times etc + costs

Q2 - 1000 units = $56 + 100 + programming coding etc

Clearly the more you do the better it gets and the more games you do etc etc - these aren't made up figures - trust me - my bank manager (and ex wife :-) ) will verify these for you - it's really not cost-effective to develop for neo from scratch...... but....... we do it. And if you don't want to buy them, then don't - simple as that. And if you have something to say, then maybe it would be better to try to be constructive ( I know I always tune off whenever I see the word 'Fran'), and it shows a little more maturity when you can do this as opposed to the simple '2-word' negative quickie ( you will learn that quickies aren't necessarily the best thing as time goes on )

So - answered my own question there - damn!

5c

Jeff F

Interesting response Out of curiosity, is it feasible to use a standard NG PCB layout and build your game off of that? I've been opening up an awful lot of CPS2 boards lately and it semems like, after awhile, Capcom kept recycling the old schematic.

I don't know how good the NG market is currently, but assuming that it's priced somewhere between $200-350, could one expect to push about ~2000-3000 units?

Given how these sorts of PCBs probably aren't too popular anymore, shipping the PCBs from Asia back to Europe, getting a printing service to do instruction manuals and inserts, shockboxes, labor, etc., $150 a unit sounds about right. People aren't going to mind paying the extra shipping to wherever they are in the world, so all that remains is how much the devs want to be compensated total.

If their purpose is to create a rare collectible, I can see that AESx2 asking price mentioned earlier, but if they were trying to max out their profits to fund future projects, I still think they can do much better on the S&D curve.

Then again, it might be better to post pics and vids on the Shmups forums and see what people would consider a fair price there. Given what the popular Cave shooters go for, there must be as many Big Tymers over there as on NG.com.

Keep the interesting discussion going. As a PC gamer, I'm all for the homebrew scene. I don't think Fran speaks for the majority of people here if the responses in this thread are any indication.

 

[Vektorlogic Ltd]

<<

Interesting response Out of curiosity, is it feasible to use a standard NG PCB layout and build your game off of that? I've been opening up an awful lot of CPS2 boards lately and it semems like, after awhile, Capcom kept recycling the old schematic.>>

Sadly not - that is the point when the SNK fun-police can have their way and take over. You would be surprised what actually took place in the snkusa vs wwidevideo case - but I'm not able to go into that in any detail - they will pursue anthing which is theirs - that includes plastic cases, pcbs, code etc etc - even boot screen access in the BIOS with the SNK logo and little ditty tune.

Jeff F

 

[Fighter123]

Worst comes to worst, they can just ship the AES snap-lock case insert without an actual box and let buyers either sacrifice a game they don't care about or save on costs. Conversely, to argue against my own point, it sounds like that would defeat the purpose of this project... to create an unique collectable. Anyway, I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, and perhaps I'm underestimating the number of Makismo's currently in the AES market but I think the Last Hope devs are being a bit too idealistic about things.


Interesting response Out of curiosity, is it feasible to use a standard NG PCB layout and build your game off of that? I've been opening up an awful lot of CPS2 boards lately and it semems like, after awhile, Capcom kept recycling the old schematic.

I don't know how good the NG market is currently, but assuming that it's priced somewhere between $200-350, could one expect to push about ~2000-3000 units?

Given how these sorts of PCBs probably aren't too popular anymore, shipping the PCBs from Asia back to Europe, getting a printing service to do instruction manuals and inserts, shockboxes, labor, etc., $150 a unit sounds about right. People aren't going to mind paying the extra shipping to wherever they are in the world, so all that remains is how much the devs want to be compensated total.

If their purpose is to create a rare collectible, I can see that AESx2 asking price mentioned earlier, but if they were trying to max out their profits to fund future projects, I still think they can do much better on the S&D curve.

Then again, it might be better to post pics and vids on the Shmups forums and see what people would consider a fair price there. Given what the popular Cave shooters go for, there must be as many Big Tymers over there as on NG.com.

Keep the interesting discussion going. As a PC gamer, I'm all for the homebrew scene. I don't think Fran speaks for the majority of people here if the responses in this thread are any indication.

I been talking important stuff from here to the shmup forum.

 

[NeoGeo Hunter]

Hmm I was hoping for a homebrew Streets Of Rage 2!

 

[Shawn Carr2o]

I want an MVS version.

 

[Razoola]

<<
they will pursue anthing which is theirs - that includes plastic cases, pcbs, code etc etc - even boot screen access in the BIOS with the SNK logo and little ditty tune.

Jeff F

I find that intresting about the boot screen. They could go after a game that uses the newer boot screen (giga power) because that code is inside a game. The original NeoGeo Logo though (Pro Gear Spec) is part of the Bios and reperesents the NeoGeo System rather than the game. Of course to take that logo and use it in another system (non neogeo would be bad).

I am not quite sure about the legal reasons for not being able to do a MVS version with credits though. Basically it could be done in a way so that No GeoGeo logo is displayed (pro gear or giga power) and also have a warning screen saying 'THIS GAME IS NOT FOR USE IN ARCADES OR IN ANY PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WOULD BE CHARGED TO PLAY. USE OF THIS GAME IN ANY PUBLIC PLACE REQUIRES YOU SET THE GAME TO FREEPLAY, BLAH BLAH BLAH'.

Raz

 

[JMKurtz]

The problem would arise that the NEO-GEO sprites are copyrighted, and also the data in the S1 which form the PRO GEAR SPEC text are also copyrighted. So, the simple and legal solution, make your own. As my Poker Night game shows, you can just disable the boot logo and display whatever you want.

Jeff

 

[Vektorlogic Ltd]

Exactly as Jeff says - you can bypass the boot section from within the game code and then you don't use any of the BIOS related displays/sounds etc - there is no problem with doing a coin op version at all or any version that doesn't use SNK stuff.

Nice to hear from you Jeff - how's the code coming along??

Jeff F

 

[Razoola]

Yea, thats what I'm saying, you simply enable the bit in the game header that tells the bios not to do the NeoGeo logo. I can see what you are saying about the sprite data though for the logo as like you say that should be stored in the cart.

I just though there were some other laws stopping one releaseing an arcade version (like maybe a special licence was needed).

Raz

 

[aria]

Just thought I'd throw a few random ideas out there, knowing that there are many possible issues that potentially could arise:

• On the copyright issue (and potentially even TM): companies often have IP protection for the shape of their devices and cartridges (since the classic AES cart is definitely designed in a specific way not entirely necessary for use). As anyone who remembers the old non-licensed NES games will note, those games used very different cart cases in order to avoid excess infringement on Nintendo IP. Have you considered the same here? (this could have some cost issues in set-up, or may not. It depends on many factors that would take up too much space here)
• There's an awful lot being made about the good ole snap-cases. I admit I like them too, but I also realize that they're harder to get. How much more expensive do people think it would be to set up the production of a new case (which would also avoid any potential IP issues, similar to the issues mentioned above)? Of course, even SNK used cardboard for its earliest AES releases in Japan (I collected many of them).
• To use a marketing strategy, it's sometimes smarter to simply cut directly to the essense of what customers need/desire and then come up with a solution that meets them: What it comes down to with Neo Geo fans (especially ones who will be paying that initial price) is that the case (1) looks very sharp and (2) is fairly durable (not indestructible, but no one wants a box that will be hard to keep in good condition).

So how do you think that would go? Do these ideas hold any water for you?

 

[JMKurtz]

Vektorlogic's SBP cart has a custom cart case, which I think looks great compared to the standard MVS case. Not my choice of color (purple), but my daughter thought it was nice looking.

Jeff

 

[aria]

Vektorlogic's SBP cart has a custom cart case, which I think looks great compared to the standard MVS case. Not my choice of color (purple), but my daughter thought it was nice looking.

Jeff

Cool. Think it would be too difficult to make an AES custom cart case? What would the minimum order be to make it financially practical?

 

[Kpj]

Just watched the video; game looks great. I can't wait for it's release.

Not sure if this question was already asked, but is the title 2 player?

 

[NG:DEV.TEAM]

There was no direct legal reason with prohibiting coinage. We just not wanted to provoke SNKP by selling a commercial usable coin-op game while using original pcbs and casings.

Now with Vektorlogic on board this will be no issue anymore. If things work out with Jeff, then we can do a full commercial MVS version.

Bootscreen:
Of course the bootscreen is disabled in our AES version too, as we are not using on purpose any BIOS functions of SNK.
Also the games shows a legal disclaimer on startup.

Creating our own cart case for AES release is currently out of scope (>$20k), collectors would'nt care anyway, as most of them seem to want a geniune snap case. So we prefere the shockbox solution, everyone can just replace them by a snap case if needed.

Afterall, a protected MVS version will be the best solution for all parties.

@Kpj: 1 player

-
Timm

 

[Vektorlogic Ltd]

AES -- and a new casing - well, I think we can do a limited release of SBP ( in a small run) and we have Manic Panic which will be finished by the end of this year so you are looking at a Feb/Mar release for that.

So..... there may be some scope to fork out and do a new AES casing and a new AES PCB set - which will take care of that front. There are another 2 developers that are working on games also, so I think it will 'eventually' cover the outlay over a 4/5 game schedule.

I will lookat it over the Xmas break, but I think that we can sort something out for a release date + 6 months for an AES release too - if all goes well with the final version of Manic and if the Last Hope project comes to fruition (which I am optimistic about)

All looks good -so again, good luck guys

Jeff F

 

[Makismo]

How many megs will Last Hope be? I am hoping for at least 400 megs - maybe more.

 

[Rade K]

How many megs will Last Hope be? I am hoping for at least 400 megs - maybe more.

You are such a tool/fool.

I pity you.

Here is a comic with you in it:

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134781

 

[El Capitan]

AES -- and a new casing - well, I think we can do a limited release of SBP ( in a small run) and we have Manic Panic which will be finished by the end of this year so you are looking at a Feb/Mar release for that.

So..... there may be some scope to fork out and do a new AES casing and a new AES PCB set - which will take care of that front. There are another 2 developers that are working on games also, so I think it will 'eventually' cover the outlay over a 4/5 game schedule.

:chimp:
Is this all really going to happen? It sounds amazing.

I am slightly worried about the release timings being too close together )i.e. all Q1 next year - I hope this won't dampen the response to all titles.

 

[NipRing]

How soon until i can reserve a MVS copy? Is the $550 still the approx price or is that still up in the air?

 

[Makismo]

You are such a tool/fool.

I pity you.

Here is a comic with you in it:

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134781

Go back to playing your cheap low meg count crap games. Blazing Star is too good for you (also too expensive on your LIMITED budget).

 

[Atro]

Go back to playing your cheap low meg count crap games. Blazing Star is too good for you (also too expensive on your LIMITED budget).

Go dream with babes, they are priceless and unreachable for your lameass dickface.

This is a serious thread, get the fuck out of this site.

 

[Baseley09]

This game is already better than Blazing Star because it's a different game.