SNES RGB?

[Pasky]

The vertical bar "fix" by putting caps between vcc and ground does not fix the center bar, it is just reducing it to the point of not being able to see it on most displays. See my comments on ghosting visibility in my posts above. Like the ghosting HDTV's can also reduce the center bar via DNR, which is what I see people using in test videos for that method online. The vertical bar is caused by noise on the PCB, this is why sticking a cap between VCC and ground reduces the issue. I have also tried this, and like the ghosting problem, is still visible on some TV's/monitors. The RGB bypass is the one current known way to get rid of the center bar entirely.

The big thing to understand when interference is involved in the old game systems is that just because it is not visible on your setup does not mean it wont be there for someone else. The goal is to actually fix the problems and not just mask them. One of my biggest pet peeves when the PC10 PPU was the big deal were modders claiming to have jailbar free systems. This was not correct, they simple did not EXPERIENCE the issue with their display/setup but the problem was still there. Drakon was a big example of this. He claimed his mods were jailbar free but every system of his I have seen on an actual RGB monitor (using RGB or S-Video) were riddled with jailbars (far worse than anything I ever did). Caps between VCC and ground is not a new solution, its been used across all the game systems to reduce interference such as jailbars and the vertical bar in the SNES. All this does is reduce it significantly but its not solving the problem.

Caps wont fix the ghosting issue, all they will do is blur the picture enough to where you cant see it. You would need some sort of filter to fix the ghosting issue. If I remember correctly Tim Worthington was working on a device that would filter the jailbars out of a Genny completely, maybe this will work for the SNES ghosting once/if it is released. The XRGB and HDTV are processing the image so that is not proof the problem is fixable by modding the SNES itself. It just shows you can stick it through some sort of external filter and scrub the problem out.

I've looked into the SNES vertical bar issue. It's caused by the DRAM refresh on the memory. When the DRAM refresh occurs, there's a spike on the VCC lines of the PPU (PPUs when it's a 2 PPU model) and CPU that introduces noise into the chips. I've looked into this extensively and I've scoped it as well:

Channel 1 [Yellow]: PPU2 Vcc [Pin 5]
Channel 2 [Blue]: Dram Refresh [Pin 40 CPU]

20mV @200ns:

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but bypassing the encoder also doesn't fix it, it simply 'band-aids' the problem. The bar gets progressively worse the more power you draw from the system. You can see it very prominently if you were to use a gamesaver+ & a SD2SNES flashcart at the same time (which draws about 600mA~). A regular Yoshi's Island cart through RF may also make it visible since last time I measured the power draw when using that cart on a snes was 450mA~ (normal carts only draw about 320-350mA~ iirc, I did tests vs real carts vs sd2snes, vs snes powerpak a while back). I've played around with this several times, checking both through CRT, LCD, & a Capture device across several snes systems. Including some older models which have TWO vertical bars (middle and one on the edge of the screen).

The only way to completely remove it, is to put a low pass filter on both the CPU and PPU's vcc lines (all of them). Throwing a giant reservoir cap, of about 1000uF between the 5V and GND on the 7805 also helps tremendously. Even after doing this, the DRAM spike still occurs, however it isn't nearly as significant, but the bar will no longer be visible on any display with the low pass filters installed.

Simply putting the reservoir cap on the regulator without the low pass filters will significantly reduce the bar, but will still have it faintly visible.

And I 100% agree with you on the PPU-10 with the NES. I've seen numerous people say they have no bars on theirs, but it's just that it wasn't visible on their display. When I look at the NES RGB via a PEXHDCAP (which is extremely sensititve to noise) I get much more prominent jailbars than my CRT's or LCD's.

I've had 2 of them and both had jailbars, one on an AV famicom, the other on a USA top loader. Nothing I tried worked, and the VCC lines going into the PPU's were extremely noisey as were the RGB lines. I gave up trying to reduce the bars after running the power lines through a pi filter, and various other methods to reduce the noise. Nothing worked, and don't even mention Drakon's stupid snake oil solutions, that guy is just full of shit. I think it's just a bad PCB design and ground bounce was causing it. The AV Famicom had them much worse surprisingly.

 

[Skips]

I've looked into the SNES vertical bar issue. It's caused by the DRAM refresh on the memory. When the DRAM refresh occurs, there's a spike on the VCC lines of the PPU (PPUs when it's a 2 PPU model) and CPU that introduces noise into the chips. I've looked into this extensively and I've scoped it as well:

Channel 1 [Yellow]: PPU2 Vcc [Pin 5]
Channel 2 [Blue]: Dram Refresh [Pin 40 CPU]

20mV @200ns:

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but bypassing the encoder also doesn't fix it, it simply 'band-aids' the problem. The bar gets progressively worse the more power you draw from the system. You can see it very prominently if you were to use a gamesaver+ & a SD2SNES flashcart at the same time (which draws about 600mA~). A regular Yoshi's Island cart through RF may also make it visible since last time I measured the power draw when using that cart on a snes was 450mA~ (normal carts only draw about 320-350mA~ iirc, I did tests vs real carts vs sd2snes, vs snes powerpak a while back). I've played around with this several times, checking both through CRT, LCD, & a Capture device across several snes systems. Including some older models which have TWO vertical bars (middle and one on the edge of the screen).

The only way to completely remove it, is to put a low pass filter on both the CPU and PPU's vcc lines (all of them). Throwing a giant reservoir cap, of about 1000uF between the 5V and GND on the 7805 also helps tremendously. Even after doing this, the DRAM spike still occurs, however it isn't nearly as significant, but the bar will no longer be visible on any display with the low pass filters installed.

Simply putting the reservoir cap on the regulator without the low pass filters will significantly reduce the bar, but will still have it faintly visible.

And I 100% agree with you on the PPU-10 with the NES. I've seen numerous people say they have no bars on theirs, but it's just that it wasn't visible on their display. When I look at the NES RGB via a PEXHDCAP (which is extremely sensititve to noise) I get much more prominent jailbars than my CRT's or LCD's.

I've had 2 of them and both had jailbars, one on an AV famicom, the other on a USA top loader. Nothing I tried worked, and the VCC lines going into the PPU's were extremely noisey as were the RGB lines. I gave up trying to reduce the bars after running the power lines through a pi filter, and various other methods to reduce the noise. Nothing worked, and don't even mention Drakon's stupid snake oil solutions, that guy is just full of shit. I think it's just a bad PCB design and ground bounce was causing it. The AV Famicom had them much worse surprisingly.

Well that's good to know. I had not seen the center bar with the bypass method even on my most sensitive displays (as well as other displays I borrowed to test it that were also fairly sensitive) so I figured it was actually fixing it. My 32 inch VVega is super sensitive and shows everything. I had tried the 1000 uf cap on the 7805 as well as placing a cap between ground and 5v on the PPU (both of them) at the same time and could still faintly see it if I looked closely when running yoshi's island. I had not thought to try the CPU though (which you think I would since that is one of the common ways of reducing noise in the NES and I have done over 30 of the old RGB mods).

 

[Pasky]

I've tried the CPU as well. I've put additional bypass caps on every IC on the board (RAM, Latch, CPU/PPU etc...) in the lower pico ranges (540pF & 32pF iirc) to reduce the high frequency noise. A pi filter coming off the 7805 with the power pins lifted on all the IC's (all of them socketed) and getting 5V from the filter. It did nothing. Like I said, I think it's overall bad PCB design and the interference comes from ground bounce which cannot be fixed. I think the NESRGB board reduces the interference due to the additional ground plane introduced on the PCB.

Same with the Super 8, newly designed board, better ground plane.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

Including some older models which have TWO vertical bars (middle and one on the edge of the screen).

Haha.....my SNES Mini has FOUR (yes, 4) vertical bars. One very noticeable in the center, another one very noticeable on the left edge, then 2 slightly less visible ones right beside of the left one!

That's pretty insane. I often wonder - when Nintendo designed these PCB's, what were they thinking?

The only way to completely remove it, is to put a low pass filter on both the CPU and PPU's vcc lines (all of them). Throwing a giant reservoir cap, of about 1000uF between the 5V and GND on the 7805 also helps tremendously.

Is it safe for us to assume that this would also get rid of the ghosting?

 

[Pasky]

Is it safe for us to assume that this would also get rid of the ghosting?

Im unaware of the ghosting issue, I've never seen it. I have all types of SNES's, 1Chips old styles, Mini's, and several revisions of the 2 PPU styles and have never seen this issue on my CRT (wega), LCD (Sony Bravia, JVC), or my capture card (PEXHDCAP). I don't run anything through any encoders or processors such as a Framemeister.

I've never seen it on RGB, S-video or composite. So I cannot comment on whether this would solve it or not.

I can tell you, that nothing you do will remove the blur on the older model snes's as the blurry picture is from within the PPU's themselves.

The crisp and sharper image on the 1Chips is probably attributed to better design and manufacturing in my opinion.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

The crisp and sharper image on the 1Chips is probably attributed to better design and manufacturing in my opinion.

Yes, in terms of picture clarity, but only in terms of picture clarity. The newer PPU however is faulty in terms of more important things (video game accuracy). Its obvious they didn't fully test this new design as evidenced by the following...

-Air Strike Patrol (planes shadow is almost invisible)
-Rudra No Hihou/Treasure of the Rudras (the top of text/conversation boxes are slightly warped)
-Disney's Aladdin (minor visual glitches at the top of screen)
-Demon's Crest (minor visual glitches at the top of the screen)
-Final Fantasy Mystic Quest (minor visual glitches at the top of Title Screen)

And these games are so far the only ones I'm aware of. There is a possibility of more glitches in other games as I just haven't tested all that many. I hate the idea of playing a game and wondering "is this accurate....?". Makes me feel like I'm playing on an emulator. Heck, the BSNES emulator is more accurate than the 1CHIP SNES in regards to the games above. Too bad though that input lag is insane on that emulator, which in turn hurts the accuracy.

I actually prefer the older SHVC (original) SNES simply because of what I just stated (no worries about accuracy, because the original SNES is 100% accurate!). But I also like the pixel-perfect clarity of the 1CHIP, yet hate the ghosting...... so I'm torn between the two. Thankfully the clarity difference between the two versions is not very significant (noticeable, but not huge, especially via RGB)

 

[Pasky]

I have several 1Chip models and mini's, I will see for myself on those games and may need your input to clarify what exactly is considered glitching. Thanks.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

Im unaware of the ghosting issue, I've never seen it. I have all types of SNES's, 1Chips old styles, Mini's, and several revisions of the 2 PPU styles and have never seen this issue on my CRT (wega), LCD (Sony Bravia, JVC), or my capture card (PEXHDCAP). I don't run anything through any encoders or processors such as a Framemeister.

I've never seen it on RGB, S-video or composite. So I cannot comment on whether this would solve it or not.

Go to this spot in Super Mario World - http://dcemulation.org/~darc/snesmods/comparison/smw-1chip-03.png - and jump up and down, looking for a faint shadow to the right of mario and yoshi. Its the 3rd stage (Yoshi's Island 3), right at the checkpoint.

 

[Pasky]

Bad link

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

Bad link

Fixed

 

[skate323k137]

nm. Good work going on in this thread.

 

[ApolloBoy]

It's a damn shame that the older boards really do have blurry RGB. Now I'm kinda on the fence on whether or not to get rid of my original revision Super Fami and replace it with a 1chip system.

 

[Skips]

It's a damn shame that the older boards really do have blurry RGB. Now I'm kinda on the fence on whether or not to get rid of my original revision Super Fami and replace it with a 1chip system.

I'm using the 1-Chip SFC, love it to death. I always hated the look of the SNES.

 

[Pasky]

I just tested a non 1chip and a 1chip SNES and both displayed that shadow next to yoshi and mario. I don't even notice it unless I'm looking for it. Both were recorded using S-video. Same cable, same capture card.

I see the same ghosting effect on the non-1Chip as the 1Chip... *SHRUG*

You probably just notice it more because the image is clearer on the 1chip model.

It's so miniscule it's no wonder I haven't noticed it before. I'll take a look at those specific games when I get a chance also.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7569n4ipubzlmf4/1chip.MKV

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e2nzjqgl886maet/non1chip.MKV

Don't watch from drop box, download it and play it in SMPlayer, VLC player, or POTplayer.

Drop box will lower the bitrate in the browser player. I see the shadow in both models. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Skips]

I just tested a non 1chip and a 1chip SNES and both displayed that shadow next to yoshi and mario. I don't even notice it unless I'm looking for it. Both were recorded using S-video. Same cable, same capture card.

I see the same ghosting effect on the non-1Chip as the 1Chip... *SHRUG*

You probably just notice it more because the image is clearer on the 1chip model.

It's so miniscule it's no wonder I haven't noticed it before. I'll take a look at those specific games when I get a chance also.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7569n4ipubzlmf4/1chip.MKV

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e2nzjqgl886maet/non1chip.MKV

Don't watch from drop box, download it and play it in SMPlayer, VLC player, or POTplayer.

Drop box will lower the bitrate in the browser player. I see the shadow in both models. Is there something I'm missing?

Every SNES has the ghosting issue and it comes that way right off the PPU. Like the NES jailbars its visibility greatly varies based on the display you are using. For me personally its not really a problem because you have to be really looking for it to see it on the 20L5, although I do have displays where its pretty noticeable. This is why you get some people saying they don't have it and people who say they have it. It also just depends how anal people are about video quality. Some people notice stuff like this and some don't. It occurs in every game but is really only noticeable on lighter colors such as white of flesh colored (just examples there are more) back drops. And yes its more noticeable on the 1-chip/mini because it is sharper. If you pull RGB right off the PPU on the non 1-chip versions the video gets a tad bit sharper (not much though) and the ghosting because much more apparent. The shadow you are seeing is actually a transparent outline of the objects on the screen. So when you are looking at Mario that shadow is actually a faint outline of Mario.

 

[Pasky]

I see. I'm not anal about it them. If that's the way it was back in '92, then that's just the way things are. After so many years of playing SNES games, I've never noticed it. After it being pointed out to me, I still don't. I don't really see the issue for me. I guess videophiles are the only ones concerned.

Thanks for the information.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

I just tested a non 1chip and a 1chip SNES and both displayed that shadow next to yoshi and mario. I don't even notice it unless I'm looking for it. Both were recorded using S-video. Same cable, same capture card.

I see the same ghosting effect on the non-1Chip as the 1Chip... *SHRUG*

You probably just notice it more because the image is clearer on the 1chip model.

It's so miniscule it's no wonder I haven't noticed it before. I'll take a look at those specific games when I get a chance also.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7569n4ipubzlmf4/1chip.MKV

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e2nzjqgl886maet/non1chip.MKV

Don't watch from drop box, download it and play it in SMPlayer, VLC player, or POTplayer.

Drop box will lower the bitrate in the browser player. I see the shadow in both models. Is there something I'm missing?

Which 2chip system are you using? The original SHVC?

 

[Pasky]

No, the one without the sound module. Not sure which is which. I don't own the original revisions that have the sound module.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

No, the one without the sound module. Not sure which is which. I don't own the original revisions that have the sound module.

Thats what I figured. I could pretty much tell from the pic that it wasn't the SHVC-CPU-01. Those (especially with the S-ENC encoder) have the best picture among the 2chip consoles. You said your video was taken in S-Video, and when I looked at it, I was like "Wow, my 2chipper doesn't look THAT bad" so I figured it was not the original.

RetroRGB.com actually documents the SHVC as the best looking 2chip (little sharper than the other ones and more vibrant color). I've compared to all my other revisions, so I can say he's right.

I really like my SHVC-CPU-01. It has absolutely zero yellowing, looks 100% brand new, and has the S-ENC encoder, and the least amount of ghosting among all my other revisions, and the best looking picture quality among all my non-1CHIP revisions. It would be tough to let it go.

I can tell you, that nothing you do will remove the blur on the older model snes's as the blurry picture is from within the PPU's themselves

Hmm....what if someone created a separate RGB board similar to the NESRGB. The NESRGB uses the stock PPU (minus the output) and bypasses parts of the PPU - Palette RAM (Color Generator), Decoder, and DAC. These functions are duplicated in the NESRGB board.

So would it be possible to make a SNESRGB board, and use the stock PPU's, while bypassing the RGB-output, and making its own RGB while duplicating all the other functions of the PPU's? (and if the board is manufactured correctly, then you can have 100% pixel perfection, no vertical bars, no ghosting, no noise at all. This would be the ultimate SNES, as there would not be any glitches with any games, nor would there be any issues with video quality)

 

[Pasky]

Mmm...I don't agree.

I've had 3 in my possession before, one was as recent as last week when I repaired one. On all of them the picture was on par with the other model 2 PPU's. I've had issues with jailbars in the later revisions of the newer style 2 PPU snes's, but the picture quality seemed the same.

In fact, the older models that have the sound module, the picture is much darker and the rgb levels are lower. But as far as image quality, it's just about exactly the same, I noticed absolutely no difference through RGB/S-Video/Composite other than the picture is much darker.

 

[Skips]

Mmm...I don't agree.

I've had 3 in my possession before, one was as recent as last week when I repaired one. On all of them the picture was on par with the other model 2 PPU's. I've had issues with jailbars in the later revisions of the newer style 2 PPU snes's, but the picture quality seemed the same.

In fact, the older models that have the sound module, the picture is much darker and the rgb levels are lower. But as far as image quality, it's just about exactly the same, I noticed absolutely no difference through RGB/S-Video/Composite other than the picture is much darker.

I'm going to have to second this, I have had a good number of these for restoration to resell and there was no quality improvement over the other 2 PPU systems.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

Mmm...I don't agree.

I've had 3 in my possession before, one was as recent as last week when I repaired one. On all of them the picture was on par with the other model 2 PPU's. I've had issues with jailbars in the later revisions of the newer style 2 PPU snes's, but the picture quality seemed the same.

In fact, the older models that have the sound module, the picture is much darker and the rgb levels are lower. But as far as image quality, it's just about exactly the same, I noticed absolutely no difference through RGB/S-Video/Composite other than the picture is much darker.

As I said, its documented here - http://retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html

You can clearly see via these pics that the SNS-CPU-RGB-01 is worse looking than the SHVC-CPU-01.

I'll go a step further and say that I've compared two revisions of the SHVC-CPU-01. The original one without S-ENC encoder, and the later ones with the S-ENC encoder. And the S-ENC actually makes the RGB quality SLIGHTLY better, and the vertical bar is SLIGHTLY less visible. Probably similar to the difference between a 1CHIP via the encoder, and a 1CHIP bypassing the encoder. Not much.

You know, in some ways, the 2chip CAN look better. Say for instance, Donkey Kong Country on a HDTV. The smoother picture makes those graphically complex games more pleasing when upscaled. Then again, you may disagree. But the 1CHIP revision may in some cases be a little harsh on HDTV, even with an XRGB-Mini. Well, at least that's what some people say. I haven't done many HDTV comparisons so I'm not the one to ask (been there, done that. Very few low-lag Plasma's exist, and OLED still isn't available cheaply with lo-lag.....and all LCDs (or LED's if you wish) suck horribly compared to Plasmas and CRT, so I'm still sticking with CRT's until OLED becomes viable). Nevertheless, it kinda makes sense what some say about the 2chippers on HDTVs.

 

[Skips]

As I said, its documented here - http://retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html

You can clearly see via these pics that the SNS-CPU-RGB-01 is worse looking than the SHVC-CPU-01.

I'll go a step further and say that I've compared two revisions of the SHVC-CPU-01. The original one without S-ENC encoder, and the later ones with the S-ENC encoder. And the S-ENC actually makes the RGB quality SLIGHTLY better, and the vertical bar is SLIGHTLY less visible. Probably similar to the difference between a 1CHIP via the encoder, and a 1CHIP bypassing the encoder. Not much.

You know, in some ways, the 2chip CAN look better. Say for instance, Donkey Kong Country on a HDTV. The smoother picture makes those graphically complex games more pleasing when upscaled. Then again, you may disagree. But the 1CHIP revision may in some cases be a little harsh on HDTV, even with an XRGB-Mini. Well, at least that's what some people say. I haven't done many HDTV comparisons so I'm not the one to ask (been there, done that. Very few low-lag Plasma's exist, and OLED still isn't available cheaply with lo-lag.....and all LCDs (or LED's if you wish) suck horribly compared to Plasmas and CRT, so I'm still sticking with CRT's until OLED becomes viable). Nevertheless, it kinda makes sense what some say about the 2chippers on HDTVs.

If someone is using an XRGB mini and the 2 PPU system looks better than a 1-Chip system they are doing something terribly terribly wrong. I used to have an XRGB Mini and had tried all three versions of the SNES on it. The 1-Chip/mini still stomped the shit out of the 2 PPU systems. This was tried across several different HDTV's and brands of HDTV's.

 

[SNES_Is_Best]

If someone is using an XRGB mini and the 2 PPU system looks better than a 1-Chip system they are doing something terribly terribly wrong.

The only true HDTV test I ever did was trying out a XRGB-3 with my 2 PPU system. It looked pretty sharp and clean via VGA. But without a 1CHIP for comparison, I couldn't tell you my honest thoughts on it. I can understand how some games (like DKC mentioned) could look better on the 2chip when upscaled, but that's just conjecture on my end.

By the way, how do you like your PVM-20L5? I've heard that nearly all Trinitrons (except the BVM) have geometry issues (like mild slants in the corner).

 

[Skips]

The only true HDTV test I ever did was trying out a XRGB-3 with my 2 PPU system. It looked pretty sharp and clean via VGA. But without a 1CHIP for comparison, I couldn't tell you my honest thoughts on it. I can understand how some games (like DKC mentioned) could look better on the 2chip when upscaled, but that's just conjecture on my end.

By the way, how do you like your PVM-20L5? I've heard that nearly all Trinitrons (except the BVM) have geometry issues (like mild slants in the corner).

All CRT's run the risk of having geometry issues, the BVM just happens to have more options to correct them. The 20L5 is the best PVM you can buy before stepping into the BVM family. Its image quality is on par to the BVM-20F1U, it takes up a lot less space than a BVM, it does HD up to 1080i, and its anywhere from 150-200 dollars cheaper than a BVM of the same size. You get a lot more bang for the buck from a 20L5 than you would from a 20F1U. I have had both the 20L5 and the 20F1U and I still prefer the 20L5 over it, its an excellent all in one monitor.