Universe 25..

[racecar]

The idea of "Universe 25" Came from the American scientist John Calhoun, who created an "ideal world" in which hundreds of mice would live and reproduce. More specifically, Calhoun built the so-called "Paradise of Mice", a specially designed space where rodents had Abundance of food and water, as well as a large living space. In the beginning, he placed four pairs of mice that in a short time began to reproduce, resulting in their population growing rapidly. However, after 315 days their reproduction began to decrease significantly. When the number of rodents reached 600, a hierarchy was formed between them and then the so-called "wretches" appeared. The larger rodents began to attack the group, with the result that many males begin to "collapse" psychologically. As a result, the females did not protect themselves and in turn became aggressive towards their young. As time went on, the females showed more and more aggressive behavior, isolation elements and lack of reproductive mood. There was a low birth rate and, at the same time, an increase in mortality in younger rodents. Then, a new class of male rodents appeared, the so-called "beautiful mice". They refused to mate with the females or to "fight" for their space. All they cared about was food and sleep. At one point, "beautiful males" and "isolated females" made up the majority of the population. As time went on, juvenile mortality reached 100% and reproduction reached zero. Among the endangered mice, homosexuality was observed and, at the same time, cannibalism increased, despite the fact that there was plenty of food. Two years after the start of the experiment, the last baby of the colony was born. By 1973, he had killed the last mouse in the Universe 25. John Calhoun repeated the same experiment 25 more times, and each time the result was the same.

as we have member from around the globe ,what stage do you think your country is at ?

 

[@M]

It's an interesting study, but, I don't know how much of that is applicable to human society. And I wouldn't say that mice were ever meant to live together in those kinds of numbers; a rodent commune of that size is unnatural--heavy predation is part of their niche in nature and keeps their numbers in check.

 

[racecar]

the covid lock down, has definitly fuck with people psychologically. we are still in a monday stage at lease work place wise , almost zero productivity and zombie like .

 

[norton9478]

Some of the mice actually escaped and help Mrs. Frisby in rescuing her home from destruction by a farmer's plow, saving her son from pneumonia, and development of a literate and technological society.

 

[Lagduf]

Some of the mice actually escaped and help Mrs. Frisby in rescuing her home from destruction by a farmer's plow, saving her son from pneumonia, and development of a literate and technological society.

I’d read that book.

 

[LoneSage]

I dunno about this experiment. But I will admit that sometimes, out of the blue, I wonder when humanity will nuke itself to near-extinction. Certainly throughout the entirety of history, humans have been scared to think their children will be killed in battle if sent to war. But there's a deep dread that sets over me wondering about my children centuries down the line.

 

[ChuChu Flamingo]

This is an old experiment and has been done on other animals as well. It isn't a coincidence humans are following the same path being animals as well.

Parents being even more shit as we move away from the nuclear family. Overpopulation and no where to move up in the hierarchy even if you bust your ass, fighting tooth and nail when a small opportunity arises.

Replace the "beautiful ones" with neets and you can see where on the timeline we are. We are currently in that stage and the birthrates and attitude line straight up. Can't lose a game you never played.

 

[@M]

Humans aren't rats or mice, we can reason and understand things that they cannot. We also don't have the "utopia" of the experiment; many humans do not have adequate food, water, or shelter/space to begin with, even in first world countries.

 

[lithy]

Humans aren't rats or mice, we can reason and understand things that they cannot.

The hubris and fallacy of the human experience put into a single sentence.

 

[@M]

Mice aren't even remotely on the same level as we are. We can recognize and appreciate that things are wrong in our society and attempt to correct them. That kind of thinking is beyond them.

The human race may collapse, but it will likely be because of environmental destruction and it's consequences or biological/atomic warfare, not the result of what's seen with these mice. Had Covid-19 been a far deadlier virus, that might have done it too.

There are other reasons for population decline, better sex education and access to birth control for example.

 

[SouthtownKid]

The hubris and fallacy of the human experience put into a single sentence.

I almost hit like, but I don't want to make it that easy for stage.

We can recognize and appreciate that things are wrong in our society

Yes

and attempt to correct them.

lol what

In any case, Japan seems to be at the phase of lower and lower birthrates. Young people seem to have lost interest in procreating. It's already been identified as a crisis (more and more elderly people with no family to take care of them, not to mention the effect on the economy), but there's been no move to "correct" the problem. It's not like you can force young people to have kids.

 

[theMot]

This forum is at the beautiful male mouse stage, exhibiting the early stages of repressed homosexuality.

 

[@M]

There are far too many humans on the planet now, a lower birth rate and corresponding decrease in our population is a good thing. Yes, there are economic downsides to that, but, overpopulation is far worse in the long run. People willingly choosing to procreate less is a slow solution to that dilemma, but far better than widespread violence (war) or disease (pandemics) doing it quickly.

 

[norton9478]

Birth rate in the western world is down because the game has changed.

Kids went from being a financial asset (those that survived childhood could provide labor and support in old age) to being a liability (Gotta pay for childcare, school, college, camp, toys, medical bills, orthodontist, etc etc etc).

 

[racecar]

Birth rate in the western world is down because the game has changed.

Kids went from being a financial asset (those that survived childhood could provide labor and support in old age) to being a liability (Gotta pay for childcare, school, college, camp, toys, medical bills, orthodontist, etc etc etc).

It’s the opposite in other poor country’s where they have 3-5 kids if not more , because they still see kids as source of security/ asset as the parents get older, as their family values are children must take care of their parents . Canada wise In poorer area of trailer park or low income housing you tend to see families with more children’s , some of them are new immigrants or single moms or native families ( don’t know their reason but I think government money might play a role, they also get child care money ) , some childrens(more Canadian born )are sadly end up in foster home do to parent abandonment , or they lack ability to care for them do to drug And alcohol used .

 

[racecar]

China is in a shift of where their 1 child policy is coming back to haunt them , they now allow 2 recently to 3 , but not alot of people would have to 2 kids as they know the cost of raising a kids is more they can afford . China in 20-40 years will have a major labour shortage and aging population problem threat .

 

[LoneSage]

China is in a shift of where their 1 child policy is coming back to haunt them , they now allow 2 recently to 3 , but not alot of people would have to 2 kids as they know the cost of raising a kids is more they can afford . China in 20-40 years will have a major labour shortage and aging population problem threat .

I was joking with a friend the other day (who has been married for two years and still no children - you are of Chinese ethnicity so you can imagine how the (not yet grand)parents feel) discussing this 'problem': "The Party used to force people to only have one kid, so why not force people now to have three?"

Actually I have seen many families within the past seven years have two children. It's actually very common to see a big age gap as well (ex: 12 year old kids walking around with two or three year old siblings).

A joke I thought up myself that I dare not share with anyone is suggesting that nature had a solution for the aging problem last year, but the Party rejected it.

 

[evil wasabi]

as we have member from around the globe ,what stage do you think your country is at ?

Thanks for posting this thread, Racecar. I have referenced this experiment a few times before, talking about the illusion of utopia, and potential issues with UBI that we might see.

https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/BFI_WP_2021-76.pdf

In short, providing for people will not result in a static or increased amount of productivity. On average, recipients of unearned income will decrease their taxable income production, and their quality of life will, on average, remain static. So as a solution for income disparity, UBI is unlikely to be very effective.

further, our recent stimulus adventure in the US has allowed many to collect unearned income while “staying at home” yet crime rates in many areas have shifted in unexpected ways. Small time crime down, violent crime up. And this correlates to the hypothesis of Universe 25. But it could just be a lockdown thing. Spending enough time with the one you love can be eye opening. Having time to understand your existence can be the most psychologically damaging experience.

 

[evil wasabi]

I don’t think we can measure our society’s cancer levels based on homosexuality either. It’s been this level for a long time. 30 years ago I saw just as many kids and adults that I perceived to be gay as I do today. But the presentation of explicit and open homosexuality has increased. Not saying I like seeing dicks touch on tv or two women scissoring. I don’t. I think the media has gone overboard on normalization.

and I think what people want isn’t UBI. They want what their neighbor doesn’t have. When you are given things that have only synthetic extrinsic meaning, for example, a Tesla Model 3, via UBI, and realize every one in your street has one, it’s value drops to a baseline level that our system isn’t designed for. The Tesla simply becomes a common car, all can have, and people desire with the passion of a Kia. Zero passion to possess. But at least Kia owners would feel less suicidal than they already do, I guess.

 

[racecar]

I also have find that the few people ( married husband /wife )that I came across that didn’t want children, they are well educated And high earners (100k+ ) one was in his 50s another are in their 30s . I ask the one 50 year old was my physic teacher /basketball coach in high school ,he simply at the time they have health concern for any offspring although he seems very healthy . The younger couple is in their 30s they are in the middle of their career and a child would interrupt their career and lifestyle ( husband work in IT earn 200k+, wife stay home ). Maybe they have other personal reasons. But I find That in the previous generation and the one before that, people start their family at a younger age. This generation are starting it later , some with or with out any family planning. The value of family and self sacrifice has deteriorated. selfishness and money is starting to take play bigger in it . what we see and learn from media and environment , also as technology advance you have seen the needle moved on the so call rating for media contents, and our access and addiction to them internet and google. the M rate game back in 90s now it’s probaly rate as kids 5+ .

 

[racecar]

This pandemic has given a lot of time for people to reassess their life and priorities, myself included ( as I spend more time at home with family , compare to the full time work ) and some people I know started some side gig. That turn into full time. And leaving their jobs to start their own business. They would have never taken the leap if not given the push from the pandemic.

 

[SouthtownKid]

A joke I thought up myself that I dare not share with anyone is suggesting that nature had a solution for the aging problem last year, but the Party rejected it.

You may not have gotten the news there, but the world has swung back to the 'it was created in a lab' theory.

 

[LoneSage]

You may not have gotten the news there, but the world has swung back to the 'it was created in a lab' theory.

Here's the weird thing. I always thought it came from the lab. I don't understand why it ever became a controversial opinion in the first place. There's a coronavirus research lab in Wuhan just a few hundred meters from a market, where people first got sick. The truth will never be uncovered now, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if someone discarded bats and someone else came along a few minutes later and grabbed them out the trash and tried to sell them at the market. Hell, old people grab shit from the trash can all the time to make what little money they can from recycling.

Anyways. Since there really hasn't been a threat from covid in over a year, there's been this weird consciousness (spurred by conspiracy theories allowed to spread) that it didn't start in Wuhan, that it was only first identified in Wuhan. I used to work with a girl who came from Hubei and she posted a rant saying the virus came from America during the Wuhan War Games. Nationalism is a helluva drug.

 

[SouthtownKid]

I always thought it came from the lab.

So did I.

I don't understand why it ever became a controversial opinion in the first place.

Because (air quotes) racism? It was perceived (air quotes) problematic to blame any Chinese persons or entity in any way.

But believe it or not, there are some people in the US who believe it was developed in the States and transported to China as well. I don't really go down any of these rabbit holes myself, because I'm sure the truth is even more disheartening than any of the crazy conspiracy theories I've already heard.

 

[lithy]

I always thought it came from the lab. I don't understand why it ever became a controversial opinion in the first place.

Because the CCP told the WHO that it didn't come from the lab and that was accepted at face value with no further investigation. And since the WHO is 'science', when Trump suggested it might have come from a lab, it was anti-science. So lots of tsk-tsking happened and videos were removed from YT for being virus misinformation.

'Science' as presented by media outlets and political actors (or are those the same thing?) worked faster than it ever has in determining hard facts last year and seemingly dismissed any contrarian opinion as based in ignorance or racism and having no merit for investigation.

Cloth masks work, hydrochloroquine didn't work, travel bans are racist, lab leak is a conspiracy theory. Now that Trump has been safely ousted, we are free to discuss these things again.

And there is a possibility or even probability that American money was given that ended up at the Wuhan lab with little to no oversight on its use and could have funded so called gain of function experiments.

But like you said, at this point we will never know. There is certainly no glasnost happening in China any time soon and the Biden administration has little incentive to prove Trump and current Congressional Republicans right so we will give some mild acknowledgement to the lab leak possibility but won't be pressing for information too hard.