SNK main character swap for CvS2

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
Rain:

I'll quote myself:

"Terry is still the strongest fighter in SNK."

Whooaaa.... Now I am a big Terry fan (hell, I started this thread because I liked him being 'promoted' and wanted peoples thoughts on the whole thing) but I'm not so sure about your statement there. Strongest in the FF/AoF/KoF SNK universe - okay, I can buy that. Some people might argue others are stronger but I think they'd at least admit Terry would be up there amongst the best. But the entire SNK universe? I dunno. I have trouble matching any normal fighter to Samurai Shodown characters. It's not that I think the SS fighters are that much stronger than KoF characters - I'd say they're both highly skilled warriors. It's just that SS characters are highly skilled warriors with big swords.

Now I know some FF/AoF/KoF guys fight with weapons (Billy, Lee, Choi, Lawerence Blood) but those weapons are generally short range/blunt/or rarely used. Given the predominant use of bladed weapons (by characters with mastery of those weapons) in SS, I'd say the edge (no pun intended) would have to go to SS characters. And thats not to mention the magic aspect. Sure KoF characters have superhuman moves but they tend to be close range - more personal. Alot of SS characters have larger, more predominant special attacks (ie. Sogetsu's pillars). If you're talking comparison to characters in all of SNK games, I don't think any KoF etc character could hold up against SS characters (incidently, I have the same problem with SF characters versus Vampire characters).


[This message has been edited by Apathy Wind (edited April 25, 2001).]

 

[Rain]

I think that the Burn Knuckle could shatter a sword myself..... Then again you could say Geese has the power of a god since he got the scrolls, but he was beaten by Terry anyway (Someone mentioned that earlier) it seems that Terry is Snk's version of Jack the giant killer or something....

 

[Tekyo]

Terry is the best you don´t know that

 

[Taiso]

Apathy Wind:

The advantages that weapons masters have against bare handed martial artists do not apply when dealing with fiction of this nature. Especially when the subject matter at hand is inspired from manga/anime type storytelling.

As for magic, that doesn't mean anything. They're essentially different special effects to achieve the same ends. And anyway, Sokaku Mochizuki in Fatal Fury is a potent spellcaster -really, he's an SS character in an FF game- and his special attacks achieve the same end as a Power Wave or a Hurricane Upper.


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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

[This message has been edited by Taiso (edited April 26, 2001).]

 

[Rain]

One thing: Whats the official ending to RBFFS? I'm sure its not a dream match as the game has a story (Krauser returns, gives Terry a beating because like Terry, he doesn't fight to win, he fights to enjoy the feeling of fighting, unlike in FF2 where he was beaten because he just wanted to win) Did Terry beat Krauser in the end? I always thought that Terry couldn't beat Krauser in a fair fight.... seeing as Krauser was stronger than Geese. So who won Terry or Krauser?

 

[Taiso]

Terry won, of course! Shame on you!

Like I'd say anything else

!

Seriously...

Krauser's portrayed as a badass in RBS, but I think the game was mimicking some of the events of the FF2 anime -Terry being pulverized by Krauser and then seeking him out for a return match after growing stronger, specifically. I'm sure Terry found a way to be victorious in the end, as in the anime.

The opening demo of RBS is intended as the earlier stages of the fight, not the end. And the way I think that intro is supposed to be interpreted is that as Terry looks back up, battered and beaten, the angry stare of determination in his eyes shows that this fight is only just beginning...

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

[This message has been edited by Taiso (edited April 26, 2001).]

 

[Rain]

So what happened to Krauser? Has he just retired or something? I find it hard to believe that someone like him, has not appeared in the Kof series since '96. Did he kill himself after RBS (like in FF2), or has he retired? Would be cool to see him in Garou 2, though. If it ever came out

 

[Taiso]

Rain:

I'm sure he's still around. I can't see him killing himself because he lost a fight. I always thought that was a little extreme for him to do that in the anime.

Don't forget he showed up in RB2. In fact, if I remember correctly, the last boss in RB2 is a toss up between Geese or Krauser. I think.

Krauser in MOTW?

Let me paraphrase Stone Cold (pre-pussy heel era):

"If ya wanna see Wolfgang Krauser in Mark Of The Wolves 2, gimme a 'hell yeah'!"

"HELL YEAH!!!!!"

Awesome idea, Rain. Why didn't I think of it

?

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

 

[Tekyo]

Originally posted by Taiso:
Terry won, of course! Shame on you!

Like I'd say anything else

!

You´re right dude

 

[Tekyo]

Yeah Terry and Ryo are the best
The real top five Snk are:

1.- Terry Bogard
2.- Ryo Sakazaki
3.- Kyo Kusanagi
4.- Iori Yagami
5.- K' Dash

The are the true top five of Snk strongest characters

 

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
Apathy Wind:

The advantages that weapons masters have against bare handed martial artists do not apply when dealing with fiction of this nature. Especially when the subject matter at hand is inspired from manga/anime type storytelling.

As for magic, that doesn't mean anything. They're essentially different special effects to achieve the same ends. And anyway, Sokaku Mochizuki in Fatal Fury is a potent spellcaster -really, he's an SS character in an FF game- and his special attacks achieve the same end as a Power Wave or a Hurricane Upper.

You're entitled to your opinion of course (and you make some good points), but I still gotta disagree - at least about the blades. Anime/manga fighters can defeat armed opponents but they are always lesser opponents (the main character being a power and the enemy either a peon who needs a weapon to threaten or a power who's just not as strong as the main character). And there is no indication that the KoF guys have that kind of edge on the SS'ers. The potential is just greater with the blade. If a SS fighter makes a mistake against a KoF fighter, they'll get a thumped REAL good. But if a Kof'er makes that same mistake against a SS guy, they're decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc.

As to the magic aspect, sadly I can't comment on Sokaku since the stupid arcades here stopped getting FF games in after FF Special

So I'll haveta take your word on that one. What I was getting at is that the degree of the magic is significantly larger in SS games - more prevelant attacks, harder to avoid, more 'over the top'. To make an analogy, it's kinda like Morrigan's Finishing Shower EX from Vampire Savior. The attack is almost overpowering - long firing rate and it pins the opponent down; a SF super fireball couldn't compete with that kind of attack. Admittedly SS moves aren't THAT bad but you get the idea. (Incidently, if Sokaku was anything like that, he must have been overpowering gameplay wise). And that's not even getting on the topic of relative damage levels etc. in each of the respective universes

But this is a silly thing to argue about. Different opinions are good; chaos leads to innovation

Now where's that SS vs KoF game SNK?

 

[Taiso]

>>You're entitled to your opinion of course (and you make some good points), but I still gotta disagree - at least about the blades. Anime/manga fighters can defeat armed opponents but they are always lesser opponents (the main character being a power and the enemy either a peon who needs a weapon to threaten or a power who's just not as strong as the main character).<<

Nah, that's not true. I'm sure that we could both go back through our PILES of manga and find enough examples to back both of our theories.

The point is that manga/anime storytelling dynamics ignore realism in favor of drama. Ukyo's sword would be portrayed as an extra obstacle for Terry to overcome, but because Terry is SNK's strongest he'd be written to find a way to overcome the disadvantage.

>>And there is no indication that the KoF guys have that kind of edge on the SS'ers.<<

True. And vice versa.

>>The potential is just greater with the blade.<<

In real life, yes.

In martial arts manga/anime and video games inspiried by it, no.

>>If a SS fighter makes a mistake against a KoF fighter, they'll get a thumped REAL good. But if a Kof'er makes that same mistake against a SS guy, they're decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc.<<

Nah...that's not how it would go at all.

The weaponless character would end up with a bunch of slashes all over his body and be bleeding profusely from all of them. And because of the storytelling dynamics particular to martial arts manga/anime, the weaponless character would still be portrayed as having a chance at victory up to the very end. Based on who it is, he might even end up winning.

And only flunkies/thugs/lackeys/goons ever get "decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc". And during the climax of the story or at appropriately dramatic moments, some supporting characters

.

>>As to the magic aspect, sadly I can't comment on Sokaku since the stupid arcades here stopped getting FF games in after FF Special So I'll haveta take your word on that one.<<

As well you should, mister "Ukyo's my avatar so I'm biased".

That was a joke

.

Seriously, that's too bad. The series REALLY takes off with FF3.

>>What I was getting at is that the degree of the magic is significantly larger in SS games - more prevelant attacks, harder to avoid, more 'over the top'.<<

I think it's all basically the same. Geese's Thunder Break is just as potent in a storytelling context as any magical based attack the SS bosses throw around. Just because Geese doesn't have demons, floating rocks or giant orbs with eyeballs in his background doesn't mean his attacks are less powerful or over the top. In terms of the storytelling, they're all just special effects to convey the same type of thing.

>>To make an analogy, it's kinda like Morrigan's Finishing Shower EX from Vampire Savior. The attack is almost overpowering - long firing rate and it pins the opponent down; a SF super fireball couldn't compete with that kind of attack. Admittedly SS moves aren't THAT bad but you get the idea.<<

Debating the advantages of Morrigan's super maneuvers over other characters isn't the point. Those are the kinds of things that the main players would be written to overcome. That's why they're the main players. Because they find ways to succed when it counts, regardless of what they're up against. That's how these kinds of stories are executed.

If I was to look at the characters in a technical vein, rather than in the dramatic vein that they're presented when it comes to continuity, I'd pick Jill Valentine from MVC2 over all because she's got guns and ordinance at her disposal. All she's have to do is pull out the weapons and they'd start dropping like flies.

Go ahead, Morrigan. Do your special maneuver. Here's an acid grenade for you to feast on, bitch. Even if she blocks she's screwed. She could only dodge, but not in the middle of her super move.

So long, Morrigan. I hardly knew ye, and thank god for that

!

This is not a reasonable scenario given the dramatics of the storytelling, but you're asking me to take things like move priority and weapons into account when they just don't apply to these types of stories. The main characters win. That's why they're the main characters. Regardless of whether the powers are magical, supernatural, mechanical, battle spirit, godlike or whatever.

>>(Incidently, if Sokaku was anything like that, he must have been overpowering gameplay wise). And that's not even getting on the topic of relative damage levels etc. in each of the respective universes<<

Relative damage levels do not matter. Again, storytelling context. Jill would kill almost anything with her grenade launcher, but it would be written so that she would not hit with it. Same with other big attacks that would otherwise cause great damage to charcters like Terry.

>>But this is a silly thing to argue about. Different opinions are good; chaos leads to innovation Now where's that SS vs KoF game SNK?<<

For some reason, this topic compelled me. I don't know why, but I felt enthused about it. But now I am just tired. I have said all I can and it's time to go.

Thanks for asking the question, though. Good talks that made me really think.

See you at the SS vs KOF machine

!




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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

 

[Rain]

Taiso: "Don't forget he showed up in RB2. In fact, if I remember correctly, the last boss in RB2 is a toss up between Geese or Krauser. I think."

I thought that RBFF2 was a dreammatch? Thats why no-one seemed to have a storyline and Geese was back....

 

[Taiso]

Rain:

I'd be inclined to agree with you about RB2 being a dream match except for the fact that Xiangfe and Rick made their debuts with that game. The only story to be told is in the endings (such as they are:P)and it's just a standard 'tournament' style game. I loved playing RB2 but it isn't a very memorable entry to the series outside of the new characters and -I think- enhanced fighting engine.

Taiso
"Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles..."

 

[Rain]

Don't forget Alfred... Hell, what was his story anyway? "Oh i've crashed my plane and now i'm gonna kick butt!"? Whats THAT about?

 

[Apathy Wind]

>>Nah, that's not true. I'm sure that we could both go back through our PILES of manga and find enough examples to back both of our theories.

The point is that manga/anime storytelling dynamics ignore realism in favor of drama. Ukyo's sword would be portrayed as an extra obstacle for Terry to overcome, but because Terry is SNK's strongest he'd be written to find a way to overcome the disadvantage.<<

That's what I said! The main guy overcomes the enemy because he's more powerful. And since he's more powerful than his opponent (and the main character) he'll always overcome that opponent - whether the guys fighting bare handed, with a sword, or an A-bomb. That's how anime/manga/comics etc are - the outcome is always predetermined (hero wins). The variables are unimportant.

>>And there is no indication that the KoF guys have that kind of edge on the SS'ers.

->True. And vice versa.<<

Agreed, they're equal. Wait... can I agree with my own point?

>>The potential is just greater with the blade.

->In real life, yes. In martial arts manga/anime and video games inspiried by it, no.

If a SS fighter makes a mistake against a KoF fighter, they'll get thumped REAL good. But if a Kof'er makes that same mistake against a SS guy, they're decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc.

->Nah...that's not how it would go at all.

The weaponless character would end up with a bunch of slashes all over his body and be bleeding profusely from all of them. And because of the storytelling dynamics particular to martial arts manga/anime, the weaponless character would still be portrayed as having a chance at victory up to the very end. Based on who it is, he might even end up winning.

And only flunkies/thugs/lackeys/goons ever get "decapitated/disemboweled/maimed etc". And during the climax of the story or at appropriately dramatic moments, some supporting characters

.>>

That's the thing, you're coming at this from a manga aspect and I'm coming at it from a real life aspect (a real life where people can throw tornados and launch purple flames and stuff - you know, like back in the 50's...). If people could actually do that stuff in life a fight between SS and KOf'ers would lean more towards my side. You are correct about the manga rendition though - wounds to the hero are rarely significant. So we are both right in our respective visions.

>>As well you should, mister "Ukyo's my avatar so I'm biased".<<

Oh that does it!! (reaches for the CAPLOCK key...) j/k. Actually I only took this avatar 'cause it goes with my user name - the SS flag waving is just coincidence. I'll admit I'm sword biased though (I collect them, it's a side effect)

>>Seriously, that's too bad. The series REALLY takes off with FF3.<<

Yeah I missed out on alot of good SNK games. Actually good Capcom games too (they stopped with those after the original SF3). But I can play Tekken whenever I want....

>>Magic discussion, Morrigan, that whole Jill MvC2 thing .. sorry, have to shorten this up a bit>>

All I'm saying about SS attacks versus KoF attacks is the SS attacks usually have larger surface areas. Better chance to get hit. Like Takuma's Haoh Shikou Ken in 98 (the fully charged one). You put the HSK versus a normal KoF projectile and there's no comparison. The HSK is bigger, more predominate. Much harder to avoid. Your average SS guys specials are bigger (and more readily available) than your average KoF'ers. And if it was in real life, it'd be a factor to consider.

Morrigan's Finishing Shower was the best example I could think of for a smothering overpowering super/special.

If you're going to go for real life arsenal (especially from MvC2) ya gotta take Iron Man or Dr. Doom or some Tech guy over Jill! They've got lasers and stuff - real cutting edge

>>Relative damage levels do not matter. Again, storytelling context. Jill would kill almost anything with her grenade launcher, but it would be written so that she would not hit with it. Same with other big attacks that would otherwise cause great damage to charcters like Terry.<<

The relative levels relate in that one could assume that the damage dealt by a strike in SS is comparable to other damage dealt in SS (hence the lack of one hit kills). That is to say, we don't know how a fighter from a different relative damage system (ie. KoF) would compare. You could say SS guys are used to blade wounds from battle and the damage they take from a middle strength slash would register as less on their SS life bar than it would on a KoF life bar (KoF'er being a character used to punch/kick wounds). Oh course this is all groundless speculation, it could be argued the other way I'm sure. There is no 'measuring point' so we'll never know.

>>For some reason, this topic compelled me. I don't know why, but I felt enthused about it. But now I am just tired. I have said all I can and it's time to go.

Thanks for asking the question, though. Good talks that made me really think.<<

Yeah, I like arguing things too. It's fun!

>>See you at the SS vs KOF machine

!<<

Ya know, it's funny... If they made that game I'd probably use Terry - he's one of my favorite characters

[This message has been edited by Apathy Wind (edited April 27, 2001).]

 

[Taiso]

Rain:

The Alfred thing I don't really understand. I don't know his place in the SNK world and there isn't a whole lot on him. I can play him in the underrated PSX game Real Bout Special: Dominated Mind but the endings are all basically the same.

I don't know if he's somehow connected to the boss of that game, White, or not. How you summed it up is perfect: he crashes his plane and decides to fight Terry on the side of the road.

Huh:P?

Anyway, there it is...

Apathy Wind:

I won't say anything else about the debate but this: realism has no place in determining the pecking order in video games.

And yeah, Doc Doom would be a good choice. Or the Hulk since his green version is indestructible and gets stronger as he gets madder in the comics

.

It's cool that you collect swords, but it also shows your bias towards them. That's cool, though. You probably have a better perspective on them than I do so your opinion stems from that in some respects. My opinion comes, generally, from the way these types of stories are told.

*WHEW!*

But Terry would still win

.



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Taiso
'Because of my bloody life, it was no accident that I was involved in the troubles...'

 

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Black_Hayato:
I think Kyosuke will pair off against Kyo!

They're both students that fight. They'd better tone Kyosuke down.

I think that's a great idea, but the only problem is that many people outside of the "hardcorers" probably don't know, or at least recognize Kyosuke.


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--Riot--

 

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taiso:
I don't think Kim will become the main man or even a major player. The series belongs to K' now, and that's that. I'm a Terry Bogard fan before anything else, but even Terry is a supporting character in K's story.

But as for SNK's 'main man' overall, I think it's safe to say that it's Terry. He's always enjoyed a privileged spot at the top, has been in more SNK games than any other character and is consistently at the forefront of every game he's in. I don't think SNK suffers from the same type of Japanese 'nationalism' that other Japanese companies seem to have. They made Terry, an American, the main character in what was their marquee series until KOF came along, FF.

Geese is the ultimate bad guy in the SNK universe. Terry is his arch enemy. If Geese is the top bad guy, Terry is the top good guy. Nobody, not even the Orochi clan, has impacted SNK's universe as much as Geese Howard. Even in Capcom VS. SNK, the bad guys are Bison and GEESE. Not Rugal, not Krauser, not Yamazaki or the Jin brothers or Kain, Mr. Big, Mr. Karate, Wyler, Orochi, Goenitz, Krizalid, Zero or anybody else that I may have missed.

It was Geese.

And only one man, continuity wise, has what it takes to beat him.

Terry Bogard.

And so, Terry is the main man.

Whether Kyo fans like it or not

.

One thing that I think should be taken into consideration is that CvS and (perhaps to a lesser degree) MotM don't focus on the rivalries between good guy and bad guy inside either of the respective companies.

In the final match of MotM (if you won the rival match), you face Evil Ryu if your leader is SNK and Orochi Iori if your leader is Capcom.

In the final match of CvS (unless you fght Akuma, which is more of a "bonus" than anything else), you fight Geese if your leader is Capcom and Balrog/Bison if your leader is SNK. (I don't like the imbalance there, by the way.)

I think that Rugal should have been the main SNK boss simply because I see him as being bigger in scope than all other SNK bosses, becuase he was the main boss of SNK's series of greatest scope (KoF) THREE times. And now that other people bring it up, maybe someone else (Gill?) should replace Bison. (See the thread I started on SNK's main boss for more.)




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--Riot--

 

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by D`Cloud:
well, It's ok to me for kyo to be replaced. besides, kyo sucks in CVS bigtime. heheh! his 'finalshowdown' sucks too. anyway... i dont want to argue on who's stronger. but the swapping makes a bit of sense too...
Since cvs2 probably wont have endings at all, I'd want the ff pairing happen in cvs2
Terry - Ryu
Bison - Geese
Ken - Kyo
Sean - Shingo
K' - Alex
yun & yang - donghwan & jaehoon
Krauser - sagat ( hi-lo battle! LOL!)
leona - guile
chang - zangief (..)
billy kane - dhalsim
big bear - honda
Ryo - ??

Billy Kane - Dhalsim?? I don't understand that one... but Ryo's rival should definitely be Dan!


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--Riot--

 

[Apathy Wind]

>>I won't say anything else about the debate but this: realism has no place in determining the pecking order in video games.<<

Closing statement time, huh? Okay - it is about time we moved on. My summation: You are correct about realism's place in videogames. However, every videogame has it's hero. If the two heroes from two different games faced each other they couldn't compete with the anime/manga rules, as each would be protected by the 'unbeatable hero' aspect. That only leaves dull reality to sort things out..

>>It's cool that you collect swords, but it also shows your bias towards them.<<

Yes, I freely admitted to that. But we all have our biases

>>But Terry would still win

.<<

I would be disappointed if you said anything else

Seriously though, thanks for participating - it was a great discussion!

 

[Apathy Wind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by RiotoftheBlood:
Billy Kane - Dhalsim?? I don't understand that one...

I believe he was going for a long reach (Dhalsim's arms vs. Billy staff) kind of thing.

 

[Rain]

don't forget:

Rose:Chizaru
Gill:Orochi
Balrog:Heavy D!
Bishamon:Shiki... that would be cool! (If only because it would get them both in the game!)

 

[RiotoftheBlood]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Apathy Wind:
I believe he was going for a long reach (Dhalsim's arms vs. Billy staff) kind of thing.

Ahh... I didn't think of that. Makes sense.


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--Riot--

 

[Rugal 3:16]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rain:
don't forget:

Rose:Chizaru
Gill:Orochi
Balrog:Heavy D!
Bishamon:Shiki... that would be cool! (If only because it would get them both in the game!)

It's CHIZURU NOT Chizaru I wonder why there are some people who still uses that.