Metal Slug 3 emulated!!! Nooooooooooooo

[JHendrix]

Originally posted by Gerken:
<STRONG>No. I don't think it would make me happy. I realize that Ironclad is outta my price range therefore I can't get it. Simple as that. As others have said, I don't need it to survive... not a necessity. If they dump it I will most likely groan in discontent as I realize that many people will download it, with no respect nor care for what isn't theirs.
----------------------
Length of Copyright
On October 27, 1998, the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act was enacted into Copyright Law. This Act extends the duration of copyright by adding 20 years to each of the previous copyright durations. In addition, any copyright still in its renewal term as of October 27, 1998 will have a copyright of 95 years from the date the copyright was secured.

The following table lists the new, updated length of copyright:

**Copyright Law**
Before 1978--Published Work is protected for 75 years from date of publication, providing copyright was renewed.
Pre 1978 (created but not published) The Copyright begins on January 1, 1978 and generally lasts for the life of last surviving author, plus 70 years.
1978 to Present--Copyright owned by an individual The Copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the author
1978 to Present-Copyright owned by an employer of author Copyright lasts for 95 years from the day of publication or 120 years from date of creation--whichever comes first.
------------------
Hmmm.... 70 years? 120 YEARS!!!!! KoF 94 is not even close to reaching this age. Read the copyright laws and tell me your not breaking the LAW! If ROMers were reported to SPA (software piracy association) I'm sure they would have no qualms about slapping the law in their face.</STRONG>

As far as I know our laws have no affect on a japanese company, as it's subject to Japan's law. And as far as the SPA is concerned they don't go after individuals, as it costs too much to prosecute them. They don't even go after ROM sites, they just go after people who copy "real" software like Windows, buisness apps, etc. They go after the sellers, you know places where money is concerned. Not after people downloading games to play, they aren't making any money off it, so they aren't prosecuted. Same thing goes for MP3's, why do you think they're still around? Cause they can't stop people from downloading them, it's impossible.
The only time game pirates are gone after are when they're sellers, and that's when the game company themselves goes after the resellers (Sony and Nintendo have done raids before). The SPA doesn't go where there isn't money involved. They ain't in this for morals, they're in it for the cash.

Peace

JHendrix

 

[Gerken]

I didn't say go after them for the mere reason I know that SPA doesn't do that. But SPA would realize the wrong inherant in it.

You may be right about that. But has this in any way justified downloading a rom without original ownership of the item? In light of the Copyright laws?

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Gerken ]

 

[JHendrix]

Ok, I'll give this to you. You can't legally download a ROM w/o owning the cart. Just like you're not supposed to own a bootleg cart.
BUT
ROM's are not going to go away. ROM's affectively now hurt no one (well these ROM's anyway), and as such it's pretentious of people here to speak down to people who download ROM's and play Neo games that way. What's so wrong with them? Where are they going to go for thier SNK games? SNK? Nope, they're gone. They'll have to scour ebay, neo-geo.com or NGF or some RESELLER and pay prices that have gone up over 500% in some cases over the orignal value.
So while it may be technically illegal to download and play ROM's I see no wrong it it, just like I don't think it's wrong to speed places when you're late or in a rush.
As a matter of fact that's the best thing I can relate this whole SNK ROM thing to. It's like speeding 5MPH over the limit. Sure the cop see's you and has you on radar going 5MPH over, but they don't pull you over. Why? Because it's a victimless crime and everyone else is doing it. Is it right? No, but this ain't no perfect world, and some people are going to have to learn to accept that.

Peace

JHendrix

 

[Gerken]

Are we lemmings that we would follow so blindly the misinformed, self-justified masses? You can't deny its Illegality, therefore why do you do it? Justice is not cheap, and if SNK of the USA was still around they wouldn't prosecute individuals because it would break them in half. The only people who have the wallet to afford justice are Sony, Nintendo and maybe a few others. Thats why the law has to be in both the Society Realm and the Individual Realm. Laws were set into motion by a group of people. There are too many individuals to constantly keep checks on, so the individual who lives as a citizen and is under the written law must practice self-control. If its wrong, don't do it. You know the law... its the law of the land you live in.... do you give no respect to it?

 

[ttooddddyy]

The earth is not flat, emulators and rom images are here to stay. I am the proud owner of a number of neogeo mvs cabs and carts. If it was not for mame would probably not have got into it in the first place, Im more of the Gallaga school, which I have a pcb of also. Please get your heads out of the sand guys. Quote" roms should burn in hell" must be a pun ?

 

[Dan Elektro]

Gerken is right about the law--I've done the research too (for an old article back when MAME was young) and contacted law professors about the situation. This "delete it in 24 hours" thing is pure fantasy, a rationalization. You're allowed, legally, one digital backup struck from YOUR OWN master copy, so getting someone else's ROM dump is technically illegal too--you're supposed to be dumping your own ROMs to make it legal and you're not permitted to share them with anybody else. Even by downloading a ROM, you're breaking the copyright laws--right of distribution is one of the protections within Title 17. I know he's already given you some links, but here's another: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/

The main reason people do it is because they see how easy it is. You may feel you have an ethical or moral right to emulation (ie I have a lot of MVS carts so I want to preview another before I buy) but you actually don't.

Well, let's be honest here. Screw the "you" stuff--*I* actually don't have this right, either. I've done this very same preview thing with carts I've purchased. This is what convinced me to get Last Blade and Last Blade 2. I played it on MAME and went "Wow, this would be great in my cabinet." And now I have both games on cart. Ta da. And although I realize that was a blatantly illegal act, I do not regret it, because it was the best path for me to take to make that decision. If I didn't like the game, I would have deleted the ROM and known it wasn't for me. I liked the game, I bought the cart.

I agree it's a crime to do what I did, and there is no gray area. The end of buying the cart, according to Gerken, does not justify the means of downloading it first. But is it really worth chasing this kind of infraction?

 

[JHendrix]

Originally posted by Gerken:
<STRONG>Are we lemmings that we would follow so blindly the misinformed, self-justified masses? You can't deny its Illegality, therefore why do you do it? Justice is not cheap, and if SNK of the USA was still around they wouldn't prosecute individuals because it would break them in half. The only people who have the wallet to afford justice are Sony, Nintendo and maybe a few others. Thats why the law has to be in both the Society Realm and the Individual Realm. Laws were set into motion by a group of people. There are too many individuals to constantly keep checks on, so the individual who lives as a citizen and is under the written law must practice self-control. If its wrong, don't do it. You know the law... its the law of the land you live in.... do you give no respect to it?</STRONG>

Uhhh, pretty much. I own legitimate Neo Geo MVS carts, I also think it's ok for people to play ROM's. Hell a lot of people got into the scene because of them, myself included.
I give very much respect to the law. But this is not a case in this situation. There is no, and I mean no crime in this anymore.
SNK is dead, ROM's did not cause it.
What I don't understand is why you people get so pissy about ROM's. People come on here and talk about playing KOF or MOTW or whatever and when you find out they play a ROM it's like it's TABOO. It's so bad they didn't give money to a reseller to own a legit system (not that I have ANYTHING against resellers or this site or anyone selling Neo Geo games). Insults are shouted and they're told that they need to own a Neo Geo or a real cart. Why? To support a dead company? What is the point of owning one? Cause you want to own it, and play it a way you like? Ok fine. But don't sit there and tell me you're better than me cause I play KOF98 on MAME and you play it in a cab or in a AES.

As far as the legality comes into play, it's very simple. Gussy it up any way you like, are the people who produced the game still selling it, or making money off of it? No, what happend to them? They went out of buisness. Did they go out of buisness cause of ROM's? No, they died for other reasons. Ok, so the copyright still exists, but I can download a ROM and play for free. Does anyone really care? No not really, not anyone that should. The people who own the copyright for the old game? They're not trying to resell it, they don't care. As a matter of fact they're happy you have the ROM. They're making a new game based on that series and as far as they're concerned if more people get to play the old games in the series (ie. Metal Slug) it's a good thing cause they'll go out and play the new one when it's released. So they just got more fans of the series w/o even spending a dime porting or re-releasing one of the old games that NO ONE REALLY KNOWS MUCH ABOUT!

So when it's illegal to download something, but no one in society or the original people who created the product care about it being downloaded, it's illegality becomes a moot point. Why do we have laws? Because people as a society care enough to enforce a set of rules they believe in. These ROM's are a particular case where they fall under a law that society doesn't want to get rid of for other reasons (ie. real pirates), but they don't care about enforcing the law in this respect. Therefore I do not see it as a wrong thing!

Sorry about going on the "theory of law" thing but you started it! <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

Peace

JHendrix

 

[FeelGood]

Originally posted by JHendrix:
<STRONG>
So when it's illegal to download something, but no one in society or the original people who created the product care about it being downloaded, it's illegality becomes a moot point. Why do we have laws? Because people as a society care enough to enforce a set of rules they believe in. These ROM's are a particular case where they fall under a law that society doesn't want to get rid of for other reasons (ie. real pirates), but they don't care about enforcing the law in this respect. Therefore I do not see it as a wrong thing!</STRONG>

If anything the work of roms has been detrimental (ok prepare to laugh) to the principle foundations of youth on an international level. Now you too (not necessarily YOU), in your lazy diaspora, can afford a digital work of art, such as MotW, Last Blade 2, Metal Slug 3, Street Fighter 3, 19xX, or Vampire Saviour - for the low rate of $0. Yes, gone are the days of working to get what you want. You can just sit back download and relax. In this puerile utopia/distopia (for me it's a distopia, but that's a good thing), kids (ages 12~112) are developing some false notions about work ethics and the social order. The Rom scene is capitalism in the wrong hands.

Ok, jokes over. I believe in paying for what I want, and that there's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone along the line has to bend over and take it up the rear.

 

[Gerken]

Nicely said Dan Elektro, and very picture-esk EvilWasabi :-P, "I'm with you on the no such thing as a free lunch," Tho.

Man oh man... I would hate to see the day when noone cared. One thing that would be interesting to see, would be an interview with SNK employee's, or the SNK owners and see what their view/take on how Roms affected them. Maybe that is near impossible to do, but there is someone here who might be able to give us personal testimony as to the affects of Roms on a Business..... Shawn? Care to take a stab at this?

What I'm getting at is we begin to think of the rom image as just a few megs on my computer, rather than an expression, rather than long months or even years of extensive work to create the master piece we call Metal Slug, etc.... Its very real... people worked to create this image. They sold the ability to sell certain US AES carts to Shawn, who in turn sells them to you. In a way Shawn is part of SNK. Any illegal use of carts he sells is a loss in potential sales to him; stealing from him.

If I ever create something, I most certainly don't want people downloading it and taking away from possible sales that feed the mouths of those dependant upon me.

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Gerken ]

 

[Gerken]

One thing we need to know is who owns the copyrights to these items, someone does. So we can contact them, and get the low down and dirty on what they think. Do you think they will say, "Sure download my rom?" I doubt it.

So who does own the rights? 120 Years worth of 'em?

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Gerken ]

 

[JHendrix]

It'd be kinda hard, but I'm pretty sure the people who own the rights to Metal Slug, wouldn't really care if you download parts 1 -3 and play them. I think they'd say something like, "well we don't like ROM's but it's good that more people are playing metal slug so they will buy our new game!"

And as for the new owners of the copyrights, it'd be interesting to see what they say. Probably something like, what was stated above.

But, one thing you all have to realise. We are not out for a free ride here. All the Neo Geo carts SNK made have been sold. We're not grabbing games that SNK has not sold and made what money it could off of. These games don't stand much of a chance getting released on other consoles now, and as such they do not have earning potential.
Remember, these people made these games for one reason. Money. They didn't set out to create a piece of art, they didn't do it for the fans. They did it to make cash, G-money cash! No more ways to make cash? No care anymore! We're not talking about stuff that's being sold by SNK here. We're talking about reselling stuff. Reselling items. The only people who are buying these resold items are people who are collectors. People who want the game to look nice on the shelf (as well as play from time to time).
You have to understand that when the potential for money making is gone, the company could care less anymore. As far as the "artists" caring about thier art, Do you think they'd rather have it go into the hand of just a few people? Or when they know there is no way for them to make any more money off of it, that they would really mind that a much larger amount of people will enjoy thier "art".

We've done law and art, what's next? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Peace

JHendrix

PS. It's good to have a real debate around here!

P.P.S.S. Don't let the icon i'm using for the posts throw you off, I'm not mad, I just think it looks really cool!

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: JHendrix ]

 

[Iori Branford]

Not to alienate pretty much all of you, but if I was a developer and my software was cracked, I would do nothing but sulk and bear it. The effort spent trying to stop it altogether would be pretty much futile, so why should I bother? Not to say SNK's effort was too, but as much it rends my heart to say it, they had it coming.

(Straying OT: Besides, if my wallet's REALLY getting sucked dry, there's always the "shove ads in the user's face so they spend 99% of their time closing them and 1% actually using the product and who knows they might just close the program by accident" technique. I know that really gets to me, and had I the money I would buy the product just to make the ads shut up.)

 

[Dan Elektro]

Originally posted by Gerken:
<STRONG>What I'm getting at is we begin to think of the rom image as just a few megs on my computer, rather than an expression, rather than long months or even years of extensive work to create the master piece we call Metal Slug, etc.... Its very real... people worked to create this image. They sold the ability to sell certain US AES carts to Shawn, who in turn sells them to you. In a way Shawn is part of SNK. Any illegal use of carts he sells is a loss in potential sales to him; stealing from him.

If I ever create something, I most certainly don't want people downloading it and taking away from possible sales that feed the mouths of those dependant upon me.

</STRONG>

Now we're into artists' rights, which is the same thing the MP3 format faces. Is it better to let people steal your music and appreciate you as an artist, thereby growing your fan base for your next album or your next live show? Is it better to let people download Metal Slug 3 so they'll go to the arcade when Metal Slug 4 comes out?

I think the previous argument about training a generation to expect something for nothing is a fair one. Everything on the Internet is free, right? Or so goes the myth, or the belief. Look at IGN--people hate the fact that some of their stuff is behind a subscription model. It just doesn't feel right when you don't have to pay for GameSpot, GamePro, Magic Box, and all the other sites. ROMs and MP3s are an extension of that "information wants to be free" mentality--which I think is noble, but does not come without its own ethical problems. You could say everything should be free but it still comes at a price...

The true origins of emulation is ROM dumping and sharing between legit coin-op collectors. "Hey, IC 21 on my Pac-Man board is fried and I need to burn a new one...can anyone help?" To me, that's legit--he had no backup of his own and the hardware involved is obsolete. Emulators took that free info and built on it. I think arcade operators keeping classic machines alive is entirely valid.

And I do think it's valid for game designers to play old coin-ops as a way to learn history, or study what others who have gone before have done right. For the same "in the name of honor and a sense of ownership" reasons you state, I think it's like, "Here, STUDY this. Understand the appeal of good gameplay with this example before you design a bad game that nobody wants or needs." I said it earlier but I still think the current crop of designers has much to learn from the past, and emulation is one good way to start learnin'.

 

[Gerken]

I just figured out what the problem is.

Its not Metal Slug Free.... its Metal Slug 3.

<IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Not Sengoku Free.... Its Sengoku 3.

Its the mispronunciation of the Three that gets us in trouble.

If we all got this straight... the world, or Neo-Geo.com, might just be a happier place.

<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Gerken ]

 

[complexz]

couldent have said it better myself =D

edited cuz i did somthing stupid <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0"> sorry for the useless post i was actually intending on posing after a post in the first page i diddnt notice 2 other pages *hits self* i woulda deleted this post but dont havta that option
sorry

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: DaMaN ]

 

[Surly Bob]

Originally posted by Dan Elektro:
<STRONG>The true origins of emulation is ROM dumping and sharing between legit coin-op collectors. "Hey, IC 21 on my Pac-Man board is fried and I need to burn a new one...can anyone help?" To me, that's legit--he had no backup of his own and the hardware involved is obsolete. Emulators took that free info and built on it. </STRONG>

This is complete and utter fantasy-land bullshit. The origins of ROM dumping were cheapassed operators making bootlegs so they didn't have to pay another pile of cash to that gouging, bent nose, mafioso local distributer for their arcade's next poor to mid money maker. Don't sit there and tell us that arcade operators, Shawn, SNK, or the SPA give a rats ass about ANYTHING but money.

The only reason emulation is such a hot topic on this forum is because that neo-store guy encourages his buttkissers to get pissy when he sees something that he thinks effects his bottom line. Of course, hes mistaken. ROMs have no effect whatsoever on Neo-Store, because it obviously caters to ignorant suckers. Geez, have you taken a look at those prices!? Not that only ignorant suckers buy the real games (I personally own an MVS-25 cab and around 10 games) but these people have obviously never heard of auctions or ebay. It may help that he tries to pass this site off as being some kind of "official distro", but I digress..

In conclusion, both spoiled rich kids and leeching pinko communists should drop the elitism and spend more time playing, enjoying, and talking about the greatest 2D gaming platform ever made.. Bai bii.

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: Surly Bob ]