May The Force Be With You BITCHES!

[Taiso]

I've seen a lot of excellent 'course correction' discussions on the internet about how to fix this movie so it makes any sense. I ALMOST joined in on them but then I realized there's no point. It's not going to change what the film actually is, validation of my views won't alter reality and people will still continue to support the pathetic execution of this movie by saying banal things like 'I was entertained' and 'It's just a movie' when they, and we, know Star Wars is a global phenomenon with cultural relevance.

It's the worst movie in the franchise, a bad Star Wars movie and just a bad movie in general. I see that Mark Hamill has backed off of his criticisms of the film, which are greatly documented on the internet in a variety of forms. It'd be easy for me to say he should keep expressing himself but he's in a tough spot right now. You can't fight the mouse, especially when they're in damage control mode.

But I don't think Kathloeen Kennedy cares about Star Wars. She's a pretty terrible curator.

 

[Lastblade]

Hamill is right, as long as these movies keep bringing in the cash, there is no reason for them to do anything differently.

 

[smokehouse]

Hamill is right, as long as these movies keep bringing in the cash, there is no reason for them to do anything differently.

The Chicago Bears are having one of their worst seasons on record...but games are still sold out and merch still sells. As long as there is $$ pouring in, the owners really wont give a serious shit about correcting things.

SW is no different.

This film was shit, poor writing, crap plot, ill placed “humor”...and a shitload of PC culture, not so subtle elements vomited on the audience nearly the entire film....but it will make a ton of $$. Because of that, nothing will change for EP IX...nothing.

 

[evil wasabi]

You know it was bad when the movie killed Carrie Fisher, but Leia lives.

 

[Taiso]

You know it was bad when the movie killed Carrie Fisher, but Leia lives.

One less actor from the actual good Star Wars movies to levy any complaints. Now they can parade her corpse around on screen and have it act any way they want it to.

We already know that Lucas and Hamill were both pretty disappointed about how Disney decided to treat the sacred trust that is Star Wars. Both of them are on record as levying numerous complaints about it. If the post-Disney buyout of Lucasfilm would have resulted in any SW movies worth a damn, I'd say they were just stuck in the past.

But these guys have lived in this thing since it started and they have a perspective that very few people can claim. Lucas was thorny, obstinate, even a jackass at times. And the prequels were not good films at all. But now, when I look back on it in retrospect, I understand a lot of what he was saying about why he chose to do what he did with the prequel films.

I also consider it, in retrospect, rather courageous that he chose to show the production cycle for all three of those films in an, at times, unfavorable light. All the stuff the Red Letter Media guys said about the yes men and how everyone was terrified of Lucas, and even of how he himself admitted that he may have overdone it at times right there on the BD, are much more interesting now that we've had time to reflect on it.

I don't know the man, but I'd be very surprised if he had anything less than absolutely hatred for these new movies. He still owns a billion in Disney stock, so don't expect him to shit on Disney Star Wars again me soon. That damages his own profits and taints his legacy even further.

But go and watch the Charlie Rose interview that was conducted shortly after he sold it off. The 'white slavery' complaints Lucas levied and all of that. His real feelings are all right there.

 

[Taiso]

The Chicago Bears are having one of their worst seasons on record...but games are still sold out and merch still sells. As long as there is $$ pouring in, the owners really wont give a serious shit about correcting things.

SW is no different.

This film was shit, poor writing, crap plot, ill placed “humor”...and a shitload of PC culture, not so subtle elements vomited on the audience nearly the entire film....but it will make a ton of $$. Because of that, nothing will change for EP IX...nothing.

Star Wars will have to undergo a combination of bad public sentiment and declining sales in order for them to course correct.

The toy sales are down. The ticket sales are declining. People are upset about this movie and claiming 'at least they did something different' is not any kind of defense. You can drive your car the wrong way down a one way road. That's 'different' too. But is it wise?

These trends of Star Wars failing have to persist in order for it make any real difference.

 

[smokehouse]

One less actor from the actual good Star Wars movies to levy any complaints. Now they can parade her corpse around on screen and have it act any way they want it to.

We already know that Lucas and Hamill were both pretty disappointed about how Disney decided to treat the sacred trust that is Star Wars. Both of them are on record as levying numerous complaints about it. If the post-Disney buyout of Lucasfilm would have resulted in any SW movies worth a damn, I'd say they were just stuck in the past.

But these guys have lived in this thing since it started and they have a perspective that very few people can claim. Lucas was thorny, obstinate, even a jackass at times. And the prequels were not good films at all. But now, when I look back on it in retrospect, I understand a lot of what he was saying about why he chose to do what he did with the prequel films.

I also consider it, in retrospect, rather courageous that he chose to show the production cycle for all three of those films in an, at times, unfavorable light. All the stuff the Red Letter Media guys said about the yes men and how everyone was terrified of Lucas, and even of how he himself admitted that he may have overdone it at times right there on the BD, are much more interesting now that we've had time to reflect on it.

I don't know the man, but I'd be very surprised if he had anything less than absolutely hatred for these new movies. He still owns a billion in Disney stock, so don't expect him to shit on Disney Star Wars again me soon. That damages his own profits and taints his legacy even further.

But go and watch the Charlie Rose interview that was conducted shortly after he sold it off. The 'white slavery' complaints Lucas levied and all of that. His real feelings are all right there.

Ep I-III had an overall solid story but it was implemented in a poor manner. I never voiced much complaint about. The story of Anakin and the emperor’s rise to power, i despised the overuse of CG, the cardboard dialog, and the ill placed slapstick.

These new films are entirely different. I was more than willing to give Ep VII a TON of slack contingent on the content of Ep VIII. I figured if they stumbled out of. The gate a bit but then corrected the ship for the second film that I could overlook the flaws of VII. Sadly, this didn’t happen at all...actually, it was quite the opposite. VIII is a train wreck. What baffles me the most of. The glowing reviews it is getting, as if it is some sort of masterpiece or something.

The biggest tragedy here is the deal of Luke and his story in the books...his going on to restore the Jedi order, getting married, having kid of his own, then turning to the dark side to catch the emperor would have made for good movie watching. Instead we get a crybaby loser wh acts like a child, does little to nothing, then dies. How pathetic. Mark Hamill was correct in his complaints, this is not what the established character of Luke would have done.

 

[Taiso]

Anyone cay say Luke wanted to murder Ben Solo while he slept because he sensed something too dangerous in him.

But you can't tell that story, with these characters, and expect me to buy it. It's fanfiction nonsense.

These characters exist outside out of the films and their story, regardless of what anyone (here or anywhere else) will tell you. They have 40 years of cultural cache that is informed by god knows how many thousands of years of shared human affection for what Campbell called 'the hero's journey'. There is a reason these characters connect with us, and those reasons are also why we forgive the classic trilogy for its flaws. For all of its commercial enterprise, the classic trilogy also had a heart and remained relatable to a broad audience.

You want to make Luke so fearful of Ben Solo that he would want to kill him in his sleep? Okay, fine. Convince me. This movie did not do that.

Luke Skywalker's battle against Vader in Empire wasn't just a duel with a bad guy. It was a fight for his own soul. The symbolism of this character dangling on the precipice as Vader reveals truths to him is not lost on me, and it shouldn't be lost on anybody with half a brain. Vader was toying with Luke until he got angry. Then, like any bad authority figure, when his soft handed methods (relative to Vader) didn't work, he got angry and just decided to beat Luke down and put him in a place where he'd be forced to listen to his words. Vader isn't trying to kill Luke there. He's trying to destroy him. Hollow him out so that he can remake him. However, even though Luke is confused and scared at that very moment, he still believes in something other than power. Even when almost everything is taken away from him over this failure, he would still rather die than submit.

Then, in Jedi, Luke has had some time to reflect on things and against all odds and common sense, he wants to turn this back on Vader. He wants to destroy Vader and restore Anakin Skywalker. He goes into the belly of the beast, willingly, to face the greatest evil in the galaxy, to do it. How is this not mythology with laser swords and space ships? Luke finds himself, spiritually and psychologically, at the very same precipice he found himself at in Empire. He's teetering on the verge of despair and anger. He has the upper hand this time, but he's still at risk of losing everything. He casts his lightsaber away and stares Palpatine down, declaring that he will never join him. Instead of a bottomless pit, we have a Sith lord. Both times, Luke is ready to die for his conviction and belief in some kind of hope for something better.

This is the guy you want to casually just say was ready to murder a boy in his sleep? Without context? Without a journey towards that verge? You show me Luke's growth as a person through three films and just expect me to accept he'd go the other way in the span of a two and half hour movie? In flashbacks?

Fuck off, Disney. Try again.

This movie is shit. Deal with it.

 

[StevenK]

You're starting to convince me.

 

[smokehouse]

I had to tell my wife tonight that I really cannot call myself much of a “Star Wars fan” anymore...

Perhaps I’m an original trilogy and canon fan...who knows. I’ll say this, pretty much everything made since 1999 has been a massive disappointment. Saying “I like IV, V, and VI but not I, II, III, VII, VIII”....that doesn’t make me much of a “fan”, now does it?

 

[FAT$TACKS]

I'll throw this out there. It may seem like madness but none of the new movies, to me are really anything to do with Star Wars.

It's like when you like an author, and then someone else takes over his work. How is that not just glorified fan fiction? That's how I feel about it.

Even though I didn't care for episode 1, 2, or 3, at least they were Star Wars movies. With Lucas out, it's just not the same.

Oh oh.. I bought the rights, now I'm going to write the stories how I want them.

Well fuck you and your pathetic attempt at passing off a bad fan fiction as authentic.

Star Wars ended when it was sold.

 

[fake]

I had to tell my wife tonight that I really cannot call myself much of a “Star Wars fan” anymore...

Perhaps I’m an original trilogy and canon fan...who knows. I’ll say this, pretty much everything made since 1999 has been a massive disappointment. Saying “I like IV, V, and VI but not I, II, III, VII, VIII”....that doesn’t make me much of a “fan”, now does it?

Eh, I have the same issues with a lot of bands who went in a direction that turned me off. One band that used to be in my top 5 now has 2 albums I love, 2 I like, and 2 I'm meh about, and 3 I can't stand.

 

[fake]

I'll throw this out there. It may seem like madness but none of the new movies, to me are really anything to do with Star Wars.

It's like when you like an author, and then someone else takes over his work. How is that not just glorified fan fiction? That's how I feel about it.

Even though I didn't care for episode 1, 2, or 3, at least they were Star Wars movies. With Lucas out, it's just not the same.

Oh oh.. I bought the rights, now I'm going to write the stories how I want them.

Well fuck you and your pathetic attempt at passing off a bad fan fiction as authentic.

Star Wars ended when it was sold.

Nah. Kasdan wrote more of V and VI than Lucas did, right? And you're kind of comparing apples and oranges. Yeah, I feel you on someone taking over a book series (e.g., Chris Tolkien). But comic book characters change hands multiple times a year. Movies [don't call them film; they're not even made with film anymore] are a completely different medium from novels, from comics, from games, etc. etc. And since movies are so visual and, it's so easy to replicate looks of one movie to another, I think it's much more suitable for a movie series to go through a changing of hands.

On top of that, Lucas had NO IDEA what the fuck he was doing or what made his work so great. I'm relieved he can't touch Star Wars anymore.

 

[FAT$TACKS]

While I get what you are saying, I'm just trying to point out that my feeling is, once the creative forces behind something when I came to enjoy it are no longer a part of it, it ceases to feel the same to me, and anything after that feels an imitation.

Many a times I've quit following comics because of writer or artist changes, or stopped reading books when the writers changed, or quit watching shows when they changed out the cast or writers. When it is no longer what you enjoyed even if it is masked in the same trappings, it isn't the same and while it can still be enjoyable, it is a different experience.

Aside from that, a lot of movies are shot on film still. Including this newest star wars. Now they are digitally processed to shit afterwords most of the time, so that at that point does it even matter what they shoot them on. It's almost like the directors are trying to make it seem more legitimate or some such by being able to say they did their movie on film.

 

[fake]

While I get what you are saying, I'm just trying to point out that my feeling is, once the creative forces behind something when I came to enjoy it are no longer a part of it, it ceases to feel the same to me, and anything after that feels an imitation.

Many a times I've quit following comics because of writer or artist changes, or stopped reading books when the writers changed, or quit watching shows when they changed out the cast or writers. When it is no longer what you enjoyed even if it is masked in the same trappings, it isn't the same and while it can still be enjoyable, it is a different experience.

Aside from that, a lot of movies are shot on film still. Including this newest star wars. Now they are digitally processed to shit afterwords most of the time, so that at that point does it even matter what they shoot them on. It's almost like the directors are trying to make it seem more legitimate or some such by being able to say they did their movie on film.

Fair enough, but I'd still say that, at least to me, the prequels felt dramatically different from the original series. VII felt more like the original series than the prequels, though it obviously looked pretty different. (And to be fair, I'd say that was called for, both so they weren't trying to recapture something they couldn't quite duplicate the magic of, as well as the 35 lapsed years in-universe.)

The Last Jedi was primarily shot on an Alexa 65 (digital), Alexa XT Plus (digital), and IMAX (I'm assuming digital since this is playing in 3D and only the digital IMAX can do 3D). They did use the Panasonic XL2, which is a film camera, but I think they used it only for the island scenes.

I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic here, but it's not far from the truth.

2014 movies shot on film: 39
2015 movies shot on film: 65
2016 movies shot on film: 29
2017 movies shot on film: 29

These numbers include movies with only certain units or whatever shooting with a film camera. People like Tarantino or Nolan (Dunkirk was 100% 65mm I think) are going to insist on film. But within a decade, those numbers are going to be in the single digits.

 

[Taiso]

It's all about the curation.

I have been reading Marvel comics for most of my life and I've experienced many creative teams with many creative directions.

There were writers and artists who I felt carried the torch well and saw value in continuing to tell stories with those characters and didn't need to deconstruct them or take them in wild, different directions solely to break from the norms. Doing something different just for its own sake is not ever a good idea. If the idea is good enough, it can stand on its own merits and doesn't need to ghoulishly wrap itself up in the skin of something that already exists, then make an original work. Or even an original work within an existing universe.

There have been many great examples of Star Wars curation. Even when they advanced the storyline a hundred years in Legacy and Cade Skywalker was an absolute dick at the beginning, John Ostrander and Jan Duursema did a very good job with the IP. Quinlan Vos is NOT your average Star Wars character. He's basically Grimjack in Start Wars. But because Ostrander understood Star Wars, he crafted a very good story that paid tribute to the franchise while also being something just different enough to stand on its own.

Kathleen Kennedy is a terrible curator and she's proving that she only ever stood on the shoulders of giants. She has to go. She is the problem.

 

[Taiso]

Disney is expecting Han Solo to bomb

Whether true or not, this kind of press damages the movie's chances and it also damages the legacy of this sacred trust.

But in my opinion, this needs to happen.

 

[fake]

Eh, I don't know that much about Kennedy, but having loved both VII and Rogue One, I wouldn't throw her overboard just yet. The fact that she had the foresight to fire the Lego boys from the Han Solo movie makes it seem like she can spot a turd. But then again, she let VIII out the door.

Either way, I wouldn't expect her to be gone as long as SW keeps making money. It's like the DC movies. They're going to keep coming and they're going to keep being awful because they make so much money.

Edit: I'm not surprised about the Solo news. It seems like it's been a disaster all around. I really don't know why the scheduled it for early spring, either.

 

[Taiso]

Eh, I don't know that much about Kennedy, but having loved both VII and Rogue One, I wouldn't throw her overboard just yet. The fact that she had the foresight to fire the Lego boys from the Han Solo movie makes it seem like she can spot a turd. But then again, she let VIII out the door.

Either way, I wouldn't expect her to be gone as long as SW keeps making money. It's like the DC movies. They're going to keep coming and they're going to keep being awful because they make so much money.

Edit: I'm not surprised about the Solo news. It seems like it's been a disaster all around. I really don't know why the scheduled it for early spring, either.

It's not that I 'expect' her to be gone. She NEEDS to be gone. She's a shit curator that has greenlit the worst film in the franchise. And you can't say that 'she can spot a turd.' She didn't flush The Last Jedi like she should have.

She can't get fired from this position soon enough for me or for Star Wars.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Anyone cay say Luke wanted to murder Ben Solo while he slept because he sensed something too dangerous in him.

But you can't tell that story, with these characters, and expect me to buy it. It's fanfiction nonsense.

It's like that dumb question people love to ask: If you could go back in time and kill Hitler as an innocent baby to prevent the millions murdered later, would you? Most people answer "yes." Most people answer yes immediately.

So I buy it.

Anyone cay sayThen, in Jedi, Luke has had some time to reflect on things and against all odds and common sense, he wants to turn this back on Vader. He wants to destroy Vader and restore Anakin Skywalker. He goes into the belly of the beast, willingly, to face the greatest evil in the galaxy, to do it. How is this not mythology with laser swords and space ships? Luke finds himself, spiritually and psychologically, at the very same precipice he found himself at in Empire. He's teetering on the verge of despair and anger. He has the upper hand this time, but he's still at risk of losing everything. He casts his lightsaber away and stares Palpatine down, declaring that he will never join him. Instead of a bottomless pit, we have a Sith lord. Both times, Luke is ready to die for his conviction and belief in some kind of hope for something better.

When I see people arguing against what they see as the mishandling of Luke in this movie, it always seems like selective memory.

Having a moment of weakness and making disappointing decisions when worried about future innocent deaths is completely in character for Luke. You talk about Luke throwing his lightsaber away in Jedi to uphold his convictions. Yes, that happened. You seem not to remember what happened immediately before that. Yes, he surrendered peacefully. Yes, he tried to sway his father without fighting.

BUT THEN

Vader mentions one word about Luke's sister and what happens? Luke instantly flies into a mindless, murderous berserker rage. He came a hair's breadth away from killing his dad and probably would have if the Emperor hadn't inadvertently snapped Luke out of it by continuing to needle him.

Their handling of Luke is the single thing this movie DID do right. I get that it's a disappointing moment for fans. It's supposed to be. People have disappointing moments in real life. And Luke has never been perfect. I don't get why fans think he should've suddenly been perfect now.

 

[Turbogfx]

It's like that dumb question people love to ask: If you could go back in time and kill Hitler as an innocent baby to prevent the millions murdered later, would you? Most people answer "yes." Most people answer yes immediately.

So I buy it.

Really? Darth Vader probably already killed millions of people before Luke confronted him.
Once he found out it was his daddy, he suddenly felt the need to turn him back to the Light side anyways, because gee, it's family.
So then what about his nephew, who up until that point hadn't killed anyone? "Nope, I'll just murder him."

So no, I don't buy it. At all.

 

[smokehouse]

Disney is expecting Han Solo to bomb

Whether true or not, this kind of press damages the movie's chances and it also damages the legacy of this sacred trust.

But in my opinion, this needs to happen.

I haven’t been optimistic about a sand alone Solo film ever since I caught wind of it happening. Han Solo is Harrison Ford...plain and simple. Re-cast the role all you like, it wont help. No matter how well the film is made, as a viewer it will feel wrong the entire time...or at least it will for me.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Really? Darth Vader probably already killed millions of people before Luke confronted him.
Once he found out it was his daddy, he suddenly felt the need to turn him back to the Light side anyways, because gee, it's family.
So then what about his nephew, who up until that point hadn't killed anyone? "Nope, I'll just murder him."

So no, I don't buy it. At all.

If that's what happened, maybe you'd have a point. But no.

I haven’t been optimistic about a sand alone Solo film ever since I caught wind of it happening. Han Solo is Harrison Ford...plain and simple. Re-cast the role all you like, it wont help. No matter how well the film is made, as a viewer it will feel wrong the entire time...or at least it will for me.

Making a Han Solo film with any other actor is the most ill-conceived idea since Casablanca 2 starring Ben Affleck, which thankfully, got nipped in the bud.

Guaranteed disaster, and I have no desire to see it, especially after the unbelievably underwhelming Rogue One. I'll watch episode 9, but no more side stories.

 

[Taiso]

It's like that dumb question people love to ask: If you could go back in time and kill Hitler as an innocent baby to prevent the millions murdered later, would you? Most people answer "yes." Most people answer yes immediately.

So I buy it.


When I see people arguing against what they see as the mishandling of Luke in this movie, it always seems like selective memory.

Having a moment of weakness and making disappointing decisions when worried about future innocent deaths is completely in character for Luke. You talk about Luke throwing his lightsaber away in Jedi to uphold his convictions. Yes, that happened. You seem not to remember what happened immediately before that. Yes, he surrendered peacefully. Yes, he tried to sway his father without fighting.

BUT THEN

Vader mentions one word about Luke's sister and what happens? Luke instantly flies into a mindless, murderous berserker rage. He came a hair's breadth away from killing his dad and probably would have if the Emperor hadn't inadvertently snapped Luke out of it by continuing to needle him.

Their handling of Luke is the single thing this movie DID do right. I get that it's a disappointing moment for fans. It's supposed to be. People have disappointing moments in real life. And Luke has never been perfect. I don't get why fans think he should've suddenly been perfect now.

It is absolutely NOT the best way to handle Luke.

Luke has already BEEN down this road. His journey in the previous films has already taken him down this path and he's overcome this particular challenge and overcome this particular set of hurdles.

If they want me to believe Luke can fall down into this pit again, after everything they've already established with this character in the previous films and the fact that the character's entire arc evolved into overcoming the risk of turning to the Dark Side, they have to sell it to me. They didn't even try.

Rather than selective memory, I think you just really want to like this so you're finding reasons to do that.

Killing Hitler when he's a baby? Luke would not kill Hitler when he was a baby. Not after everything they established with his character in the previous films. He would work to keep him in the light because it's already been established that's how Luke would do this from the previous films.

They didn't sell this. They didn't do this properly at all. They fast tracked it and hotshotted it and its messy execution shows.

EDIT: You know, something else you said also bears a special comment:

BUT THEN

Vader mentions one word about Luke's sister and what happens? Luke instantly flies into a mindless, murderous berserker rage. He came a hair's breadth away from killing his dad and probably would have if the Emperor hadn't inadvertently snapped Luke out of it by continuing to needle him.

This is really not a very good argument.

Point One:

Vader mentions Luke's sister as a way to trigger his anger and continue the old struggle. Yes, Luke fails because at that moment, alone with his thoughts and fears as he struggles against Vader and the presence of the Emperor, he's back in that tree. He fails there and commits to using violence to solve the problem.

BUT THEN

When it matters most, he casts away his lightsaber, thus PROVING Luke has at last overcome his weaknesses. That is the moment when Luke matures beyond giving in to anger and fear. This arc is done. Having Luke regress to pre-Jedi form is a hard sell and unwise. If they're going to go down that road, it needs to be done better than it was done in The Last Jedi.

Point Two:

When Luke does break, it's before he steps away from the precipice. When Yoda and Ben are speaking to Luke on Dagobah, the nature of the conversations are foreshadowing that his challenge is yet before him. It's not as if Luke had overcome all of his anxieties and fears before confronting Vader and suddenly regressed. He hadn't completed that journey yet. He couldn't have completed that journey yet because the movie is building towards that exact moment when he finally breaches the gap.

So yeah...I have to dismiss your argument.

 

[itsofrustratin]

I wonder how much time and money was spent on that random milking scene.