Is the sega Saturn overrated for shoot em ups?

[Massive Urethra Chode]

I think the question more focused on is it "overrated for shmups" not "overrated overall". Because overall I still think it's a shit system.

I’m curious why you say it’s a shit system. Seems like there are other consoles that are much more deserving of being labeled as shit. Like the 3DO or Jaguar. Looking through those libraries i find it hard to even find a handful of games i am interested in playing on them... saturn on the other hand has plenty of interesting games that can’t be played anywhere else. Granted i am a fan of first party sega games.

 

[roker]

I’m curious why you say it’s a shit system.

Unlike the other consoles you mentioned, Sega was one of the titans of the industry in the previous generation. Overall the games were pretty subpar. Sure the arcade ports were great but they were ports and inaccessible to most US buyers. I would have bought the Capcom and snk games but they never made it here.

For the record I had a Saturn for a year after it was released until I sold it on eBay (might have been one of my earliest eBay uses). Later I bought one after joining the forums because of all the nerd hype. I was pretty disappointed and mainly used it to play battle garrega.

I feel it's a system people talk about to out hipster the other gamer. "Look at me! I'm into the Saturn!"

PS1 was a better system for 3D (no comparison) and while it's 2D fighting games weren't as good, the PS1 got it's fair share of shmup ports/originals that play and look great.

PS1 thread hijacking:

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/phenominal-playstation-ps1-2d-shooters-shmups-library

 

[andsuchisdeath]

I feel it's a system people talk about to out hipster the other gamer. "Look at me! I'm into the Saturn!"

Oh, whatever. It's fine if you don't like it. No big deal. But saying you don't like it because trendy wannabes brag about liking it? That's what this hobby has become, so I don't think any of that should influence the perception someone has of a console as someone who "knew what was up" before all of the johnny-come-latelys.

If "out hipster" is truly a part of your video game vernacular and is a thing you're concerned with other people doing, perhaps you should take a long hard look at what this hobby truly means to you.

 

[Massive Urethra Chode]

Oh, whatever. It's fine if you don't like it. No big deal. But saying you don't like it because trendy wannabes brag about liking it? That's what this hobby has become, so I don't think any of that should influence the perception someone has of a console as someone who "knew what was up" before all of the johnny-come-latelys.

If "out hipster" is truly a part of your video game vernacular and is a thing you're concerned with other people doing, perhaps you should take a long hard look at what this hobby truly means to you.

If this forum had reputation points like Sega-16 forums i’d be giving you rep right now. The whole hipster-calling culture in the video game community is laughable.

The saturn is genuinely good. Consoles dont need a massive library to be enjoyable. A lot of people spend thousands on arcade machines that only play one game. Having a console with less games than a PS is no big deal. Just one really good game can make a machine worth owning. Battle Garegga is excellent! And hyper duel too, and panzer dragoon saga, and many others.

 

[andsuchisdeath]

If this forum had reputation points like Sega-16 forums i’d be giving you rep right now. The whole hipster-calling culture in the video game community is laughable.

The saturn is genuinely good. Consoles dont need a massive library to be enjoyable. A lot of people spend thousands on arcade machines that only play one game. Having a console with less games than a PS is no big deal. Just one really good game can make a machine worth owning. Battle Garegga is excellent! And hyper duel too, and panzer dragoon saga, and many others.

I mean, roker is OBVIOUSLY entitled to his opinion, and I don't want to gloss over nor oversimplify his rationale behind his distaste.

BUT, it kinda sounds like he's saying "it's only popular among people who want to like stuff that isn't popular", and he can't believe that there are people who genuinely like (or love) the console.

I mean, I've been creepily stalking his anti-saturn posts for a few years...and I recall him talking about a lack of "triple A" games or something like that. And that's fair. Most people like those kind of games, those are the kind of games that sell consoles, and the saturn didn't have many of those kinds of games (in the US?). So why do all of these people like the saturn now?

Well, yeah, they're aren't a lot of people who can live off of nothing but 2D arcade ports (of course the saturn offers more than this but....). And I'm sure he's correct about phonies pretending to like the saturn who don't even like 2D arcade ports, and don't really like anything about the console other than it's former "obscurity" and collectors relevance. But like...those people should be perceived as a joke, and acknowledging their existence and bringing them into a discussion on why a console is weak, is well, weak.

 

[Massive Urethra Chode]

Beyond shmups, I’d say the fighting game library is stronger on Saturn than PS. Tekken is okay but Sega’s fighters are just more fun to play IMO

 

[andsuchisdeath]

Beyond shmups, I’d say the fighting game library is stronger on Saturn than PS. Tekken is okay but Sega’s fighters are just more fun to play IMO

You're not helping the pro-saturn argument

 

[oliverclaude]

I mean, I've been creepily stalking his anti-saturn posts for a few years...and I recall him talking about a lack of "triple A" games or something like that. And that's fair. Most people like those kind of games, those are the kind of games that sell consoles, and the saturn didn't have many of those kinds of games (in the US?). So why do all of these people like the saturn now?

Well, the lack of games by major publishers with higher development and marketing budgets can definitely spike the popularity of a console after it's long discontinued. Generally those so called triple A games are designed to appeal to a broad audience, hence they don't offer much originality and are mostly carbon copies to corresponding blockbusters on other consoles. So it's the smaller, more unusual, more obscure stuff, that forms a console's appeal during its afterlife. 2D arcade games definitely fit that description now, where 2D sprites only exist as an exception.

Considering that the Saturn was from the 5th generation, i.e. the beginning of polygon based 3D gaming, I'd add that those former blockbusters often don't age too well, because their appeal was based on the use of state of the art visuals during pioneering days of 3D and will loose any comparison with successors from generations that followed. That's not the case with 2D sprite-based games, which reached their heyday during that time. This would suggest, that a 5th gen library with less 3D "blockbusters", but more 2D games, will also age better.

When you think of the Saturn, then think of van Gogh, who never sold during his lifetime, because he didn't do, eh, "tripple A" paintings. Long after his death, he's considered tripple A for collectors and art historians alike, while from time to time someone will call him overrated.

 

[andsuchisdeath]

oliverclaude, it was a rhetorical question.

Well said though

 

[roker]

Not for nothing guys but if somebody starts a thread and asks for an opinion and the responses are positive but people give shit to the dissenting opinions then what's the point of asking? I"m a bit harsh when it comes to the Saturn primarily because people were just fawning over it in the past without an asshole like me to talk about the negatives of it.

A lot of the best ports got ported. It has few original titles that I would consider to be above average. Most of the 3D games for the system are ok at best. Etc.

Sorry I let you down andsuchisdeath, but thanks for respecting my right to an opinion.

 

[andsuchisdeath]

You didn't let me down. I very much enjoy having a dialogue and enjoy thinking about perspectives different than my own.

The only way you could have let me down was if you had never posted in this thread.

 

[Massive Urethra Chode]

You're not helping the pro-saturn argument

There’s no need for a pro saturn argument. Those who know the saturn’s value will just play and enjoy it. Those who fail to see the appeal wont. I love the system but i would also agree that it’s library isn't for everybody. If you are looking for 3D platformers or N64-like collect-a-thon games, saturn will disappoint you. If you like high quality arcade style games then Saturn will likely be a really fun console. If you’re the type of person that would want a Sega astro city cab in your house, a saturn and an arcade stick would be the next best thing if you dont have a ton of money to spend. It’s basically an arcade PCB with a CD-ROM drive, anyway.


But I will say that people who hate the Saturn are probably filthy casuals lol

 

[neo_mao]

I haven’t played Saturn in ages...but I had one at launch (or near launch). I was never a huge arcade kid but the one close to my home did have a bunch of sega cabs. Being able to play Virtua Fighter, Daytona etc at home back then was amazing. Yeah in retrospect the ports were not great perhaps, but it didn’t feel that way back then.

I feel very lucky to have been able to experience all that as a youngster. I definitely did not regret having a Saturn back then - and that was just US games...I didn’t even know about imports etc until years and years later when I joined this place.

 

[andsuchisdeath]

There’s no need for a pro saturn argument.

Ok, you're right there isn't, and maybe that was a poor choice of words.

But going "uhh it has fighting games too" just sounds like you're reaching really hard.

 

[Massive Urethra Chode]

Ok, you're right there isn't, and maybe that was a poor choice of words.

But going "uhh it has fighting games too" just sounds like you're reaching really hard.

I’d say there is a small number of things that the saturn does really well, while pretty much failing at being a jack of all trades like the PS1.

 

[opt2not]

I'd say the Panzer Dragoon series increase the quality factor of the console. Sure it's not the most beautiful 3D, but the gameplay and pacing kicks ass. That's where it counts IMO. 1 and 2 are classic. Saga, from what I've read is a great RPG take on the series. I have only put a couple hours into it, so I can't make a judgement on it, but from what I played it's been enjoyable. I really need to do that FRAM save mod so I don't have to worry about my save game being wiped to really invest time into it.

Someone will say Orta for OG Xbox is the best Panzer Dragoon. They may be right, but that doesn't mean I am going to avoid 1 and 2, and it doesn't deminish the quality of the Saturn.

 

[Shmuppy]

The Saturn initially was designed for 2D as we all are aware of, right? I believe to know "everything" involved into the Saturn developement including a "self-translated" 150 pages interview with Hideki Sato the chief engineer of all SEGA consoles from the SG-1000 upto the Dreamcast. He messed up everytime/every console more or less but there is no discussion about the Saturn as a 2D powerhouse and therefore perfect for shmups and fighters and Astal Look at Terra Diver SAT and then the PS1 version which has way less colors and way more slowdown b/c PS1 had to emulate all these 5 Saturn BG layers with textured 2D polygons. I wonder what could have been if the 4MB cart was used for shmups? On top the Japanese or 2nd gen west controller is the best for everything 2D based. PS1 digi pad sucked so much I even got a bloody thumb in Tekken2, meh...

I see the Saturn as a perfect 2D Arcade (way cheaper) substitution with some nice, heavily nice 3D sprinkles like Panzer1/2/Saga, SRally, FightersMegamix, Nights... A nightmare system from a HW point of view but yeah, 2D goodness to the max

 

[Massive Urethra Chode]

I’m more curious about what could have been done with 3D games using the 4 MB cart. Final Fight Revenge is a joke. How about an “open” world game, ala donkey kong 64

 

[Shmuppy]

That is exactly my question as well, 4MB in other than the usual great(!!) Capcom stuff, Revenge not counted obviously). I've heard the ST-V was not only a JAMMA Saturn but with 4MB extra by default. That would explain the more slowdowns in games like Terra Diver on Saturn judging by MAME. Still I can't get the information if the 4MB was Main RAM or VRam? Saturn with 4MB killed and whiped the floor with the PS1 in 2D in "sleep-mode"... Maybe GalaxyForceII and PowerDrift would have run @60fps with the 4MB?...

 

[Massive Urethra Chode]

Imagine a saturn with a comically massive RAM expansion... how about 128 MB??? I wonder if there is a limit to how much ram you can add? A ram expansion like that would make the saturn the most insane 2D console ever.. imagine fitting the equivalent of a 683 megabit NEO•GEO game in the saturn’s ram... man they should have come out with a really expensive “arcade card” for saturn for crazy shit like that. Hehe... it would kick the neo geo’s ass

 

[oliverclaude]

You didn't let me down. I very much enjoy having a dialogue and enjoy thinking about perspectives different than my own.

The only way you could have let me down was if you had never posted in this thread.

+1

roker, you have a talent to challenge nerdy video game perspectives different than one own's. A roker though[SUP][SUB][SUP]TM[/SUP][/SUB][/SUP] stays in there like a splinter, which you don't really want to remove... once LoneSage had that talent, too. He created threads about odd R-Types like Leo or the gloomy bonus stages in Metal Black. But then his shmups-forum alias (LoneSage) was compromised by a Wasabi of Evil proportions and he ceased to share his splinters with us.

What is it with you two anyway? Let me guess, once you were best friends, but then you both fell for the same seriously successful woman. Of all the arcade joints in all the towns in all the world, she walked right into yours and torn you apart. Sage can still hear her sweet voice, right? Sage, dear, I'll go with you any place. We'll get on a plane together and never stop. But he got on that plane alone, economy class, to hole up in Casabl... eh, China. Looking back, you can see a Sage standing on an airstair in the rain with a comical look under his face mask, because his insides had been kicked out. While you kicked out that lady anyway, obviously, if she had feelings for Sage, she wasn't successful enough. Shortly after, you went on to mock him, some might say, in a seriously successful manner. Goddamn you roker, how could you?!

 

[yagamikun]

When I was a teen in the 90's, the Saturn was my go-to 32-bit machine because I'm a nut for arcade style games. But then, toward the end of the 90's, I got my first AES and eventually a MAS Supergun with a decent CPS2 library - haven't really looked back since.

I still enjoy the Saturn, but I've lovingly come to call my console the Rockman 8 machine as that is usually what I play when I turn it on. I'll play some Panzer Dragoon here and there, or some Sonic R when I need to "Feel the Sunshine to brighten up my day", but I don't need it for its arcade ports as I have access to the vast majority of those games on their original hardware - and/or there are some modern ports that overshadow the Saturn version, like the PS3 port of Virtua Fighter 2.

I've never seen the Saturn as overrated, though. The people that love it have good reason to, and it is awesome that people are rediscovering its great library of games. It may not have the breadth of titles or publishers as the PS1, but if you like the quirkyness of Sega then you'll feel right at home.

 

[Shmuppy]

Imagine a saturn with a comically massive RAM expansion... how about 128 MB??? I wonder if there is a limit to how much ram you can add? A ram expansion like that would make the saturn the most insane 2D console ever.. imagine fitting the equivalent of a 683 megabit NEO•GEO game in the saturn’s ram... man they should have come out with a really expensive “arcade card” for saturn for crazy shit like that. Hehe... it would kick the neo geo’s ass

I like your thoughts! At least KOF '95 with that special ROM-Cart showed what can be done. A rematch with the same fighters took NEO "loading" times aka ZERO! The only thing Saturn wouldn't kick Neo's ass is sound. The Saturn Yamaha was more capable but sucked due to lacking sound compression and too little 512KBytes of sound RAM. So Neo always sounded better than Saturn in chip tune mode. IF, if the (your) expansion would have included more sound RAM, then it would be another story. The magic about Neo is the instant streaming of data at any given time in real-time from ROM. 330Mbit max (without ROM bank switching) acting like virtual RAM/VRAM (the cart itself) is another thing than Saturn's complete 36Mbit RAM which wanna be filled here and there via the CD drive. Funny thing is XBoxSeriesX and PS5 will "abuse" the SSD/"ROM" in the same way. Sega's Model3 did a similar thing btw.