Has Ghost Lop been dumped?
- Thread starter Amano Jacu
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Posts
- 908
Gentlemen,
The last time I posted to a thread here on this particular topic, I took the time to write very clearly, I made valid points, and I replied to any intelligent questions that resulted from it.
Despite this professionalism, I was slammed by the "masses" which resulted in nothing having been accomplished.
I am stating this because I want those who read this post to think before they reply. Too many people here are soley here for the drama, to cause problems, and to add fuel to the fires. I do not have the time nor the patience to reply to each and every single question or accusation. And I CERTAINLY do not have the interest in constantly having to re-post my points. In fact most of what I will say here and now has already been said by myself in several previous posts that I made. Proving my point that nobody who replies ever really reads what I say, they merely enjoy causing trouble. Hell, check the history if you don't believe me.
With that said...here I go again...
1) Yes, the value of say a Metal Slug One home cart is not affected by the fact that the MVS cart can be had for $75, nor that the roms (played on an emulator) can be had for free. The value of a proto however is completely different! Its value is not "elevated" due to its "condition, box, cart sticker, manual, etc." because those items do not exist! Comparing the two is completely incorrect. Picture a loose label-less metal slug one mvs cartridge...what is that worth? $50? Would you pay $1,000 for one? How about $2,000? etc. Of course not! You would be a MORON to do so because the game is "AVAILABLE". Once the game is available, not even the freakiest of collectors will pay those kinds of figures for a "generic" cartridge.
2) The argument that "Billy says Ghostlop is a great game ONLY because it cost so much" also has no foundation. I own the entire neo-geo collection; every single neo-geo released game and some protos. I have no reason to lie. If the game sucked, I would say so. Keep in mind that I also did not say that it is "the best puzzle game ever on the neo!" Because I do not feel that way. I still think that Puzzled & Bust-A-Move are the best ones. I said what I thought, nothing more, nothing less and nothing influenced by a personal bias.
3) For the LAST time, I am NOT a hypocrite. Acquiring a game which nobody else has comes with the most important benefit of all..."leverage". I (we) need this leverage in order to entice other proto owners into TRADING what they have. Which in turn, helps us to acquire another game. These proto owners will NOT trade their protos for a game that is already: "available to everyone".
Everyone who wants to, will eventually be able to play this game. This is inevitable. All things come to light. And the game is already "saved" as it was "found" by one of "us". So nobody needs to lose sleep over this particular game "being lost forever" any longer. But in the meantime, there are other protos owned by other people that we have not even found yet. Finding them is far more important then discussing the ones we already have! Lets focus on those.
annoyed
Billy Pitt
help
PS: If you want to make some progress and be a part of the solution, try getting on the case of the other neogeo proto owners out there. The ones who have yet to even share their information, screenshots, videos, etc. of the protos that they have! Attacking me while ignoring them is the only true proven hypocrisy around here! spock
The last time I posted to a thread here on this particular topic, I took the time to write very clearly, I made valid points, and I replied to any intelligent questions that resulted from it.
Despite this professionalism, I was slammed by the "masses" which resulted in nothing having been accomplished.
I am stating this because I want those who read this post to think before they reply. Too many people here are soley here for the drama, to cause problems, and to add fuel to the fires. I do not have the time nor the patience to reply to each and every single question or accusation. And I CERTAINLY do not have the interest in constantly having to re-post my points. In fact most of what I will say here and now has already been said by myself in several previous posts that I made. Proving my point that nobody who replies ever really reads what I say, they merely enjoy causing trouble. Hell, check the history if you don't believe me.
With that said...here I go again...
1) Yes, the value of say a Metal Slug One home cart is not affected by the fact that the MVS cart can be had for $75, nor that the roms (played on an emulator) can be had for free. The value of a proto however is completely different! Its value is not "elevated" due to its "condition, box, cart sticker, manual, etc." because those items do not exist! Comparing the two is completely incorrect. Picture a loose label-less metal slug one mvs cartridge...what is that worth? $50? Would you pay $1,000 for one? How about $2,000? etc. Of course not! You would be a MORON to do so because the game is "AVAILABLE". Once the game is available, not even the freakiest of collectors will pay those kinds of figures for a "generic" cartridge.
2) The argument that "Billy says Ghostlop is a great game ONLY because it cost so much" also has no foundation. I own the entire neo-geo collection; every single neo-geo released game and some protos. I have no reason to lie. If the game sucked, I would say so. Keep in mind that I also did not say that it is "the best puzzle game ever on the neo!" Because I do not feel that way. I still think that Puzzled & Bust-A-Move are the best ones. I said what I thought, nothing more, nothing less and nothing influenced by a personal bias.
3) For the LAST time, I am NOT a hypocrite. Acquiring a game which nobody else has comes with the most important benefit of all..."leverage". I (we) need this leverage in order to entice other proto owners into TRADING what they have. Which in turn, helps us to acquire another game. These proto owners will NOT trade their protos for a game that is already: "available to everyone".
Everyone who wants to, will eventually be able to play this game. This is inevitable. All things come to light. And the game is already "saved" as it was "found" by one of "us". So nobody needs to lose sleep over this particular game "being lost forever" any longer. But in the meantime, there are other protos owned by other people that we have not even found yet. Finding them is far more important then discussing the ones we already have! Lets focus on those.
annoyed
Billy Pitt
help
PS: If you want to make some progress and be a part of the solution, try getting on the case of the other neogeo proto owners out there. The ones who have yet to even share their information, screenshots, videos, etc. of the protos that they have! Attacking me while ignoring them is the only true proven hypocrisy around here! spock
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2000
- Posts
- 13,852
Gotta Catch 'Em All!
-Nick
- Joined
- May 9, 2003
- Posts
- 4,705
lol
Amano Jacu
Charles Barkley
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2001
- Posts
- 8,594
Really good point there, but... You know, all the regular MVS games legally released and exploted have already been dumped and distributed, and that's even more illegal. I think that in this case the rom could be released and that wouldn't interfere in the "future" plans of it being released "officially".
And about the Zupapa issue... You know, I'm still wondering why they released an older game that played exactly like a more modern one, NITD, after it. My guess is that they prefered to make a better looking game for being released in 2000 instead of the 94 one, but after it succeeded a bit they thought of doing a second part. But then they said: hell, why spent money on making yet another game if we already have the old? So they just released the old. Pretty smart.
And Billy, what makes a game being expensive is its rarity. Metal Slug 1 AES is expensive because there are only a few, so only collectors buy it, regular gamers have more than enough with the MVS. But Ghost Lop is even rarer as there is only 1 known copy in ANY format.
Finally, and talking about legal issues, in my opinion the fact that Billy, a private buyer, owns a proto that was not made to be commercialized to the general public, just for exhibition in the arcade industry, is as illegal as it would be for me to have the rom in my computer. I don't think Data East has legally entitled you to own it, nor they produced that proto in order to have one particular person to be able to play it at home.
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2000
- Posts
- 13,852
This is a true statement, he doesn't legally own this game, and it can be seized by Playmore at anytime. Though, I doubt they would care. But this is very similar to the proto of Warlocks of the Fate seized in the NGF raid...
-Nick
N
Neotokyobikerkid
Guest
PLaymore is Gay for Stealing a Proto From Dion And Chris
They have eliminated the chance any of us would of have to play it.
In my mind Some companies Especially SNK cover games up
Keep in mind there is also A proto Turf Masters 2,Last Blade 3,And Mark Of Wolves 2
Shit at one time Even Kof 2k was a Proto
We know what happened from then on
Who gives a shit about lame puzzle games
I want to play Iron Clad,Warlocks and more shooters and fighters!!!
<small>[ July 12, 2003, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Neotokyobikerkid ]</small>
They have eliminated the chance any of us would of have to play it.
In my mind Some companies Especially SNK cover games up
Keep in mind there is also A proto Turf Masters 2,Last Blade 3,And Mark Of Wolves 2
Shit at one time Even Kof 2k was a Proto
We know what happened from then on
Who gives a shit about lame puzzle games
I want to play Iron Clad,Warlocks and more shooters and fighters!!!
<small>[ July 12, 2003, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Neotokyobikerkid ]</small>
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Posts
- 908
Pretty silly and ridiculous statements which do not even deserve a reply, but I will give you both credit for one thing, at least they bring up new questions that were not covered before. So for this reason alone I will answer them.
I am both a neo-geo home system owner (gamer & collector) as well as an arcade operator. (It's what I do for a living) So you can look at it any way you want to. But the fact is that the game was a sample demo cartridge specifically given to an operator here in the United States for testing purposes. The game obviously did not play test very well & earned poor revenues, and so it was not released. (Most likely reason being its complicated initial gameplay learning curve as it plays very different then other similar looking puzzle games imho)
Then, fast forward to February 28th, 2003, I in turn then acquired this cartridge from this operator. That's it. Nothing "shady" here guys. Therefore, the game is 100% "legal". There is nothing "illegal" about this game. There is nothing "confiscatable" about it either! lol
Playmore, nor the former SNK and/or Data East, has absolutley NO FOUNDATION to lay ANY claims to it. It does NOT belong to them.
This is logical to any person with half a sense, and it is also clearly evident to everyone else here that what your doing by raising this completely off-tangent angle is nothing short of "reaching" at this point. You don't need to personally attack me in ways like this. I am not the bad guy here.
Now play friendly...
wink
Billy Pitt
I would like to ask if is valid to have anything specially software or hardware) "away" from the public knowledge for 50 or 60 years?
Look at Nintendo the original NES games will be public until 2050, it will be worthy in that time? Do u think if it would be enough only 15 or 20 years?, Who and how decide about this issue? US?, The goverment?, The creator?, The actual owner?
The same is happening with PC software, does somebody is still using WRITE for D.O.S version 1.0?
And the most famous formula of all time, is still under secret, even if the patent ended 10 years ago (I think), yes you know about this formula, a lot of us drink Coke every day.
So is an interesting issue rised here, about what intelectual property or technology should be public, and when.
Think about the AIDS vaccine, do u really think that the company that finds out the formula to cure this ill will share the formula to all others farmaceutical companies, just like that?, Think again.
About this dump, I think that probably not all of us are really interested in the game. But it could be almost morbid to play such rarety, I think thats the main reason to have interest in this game.
Look at Nintendo the original NES games will be public until 2050, it will be worthy in that time? Do u think if it would be enough only 15 or 20 years?, Who and how decide about this issue? US?, The goverment?, The creator?, The actual owner?
The same is happening with PC software, does somebody is still using WRITE for D.O.S version 1.0?
And the most famous formula of all time, is still under secret, even if the patent ended 10 years ago (I think), yes you know about this formula, a lot of us drink Coke every day.
So is an interesting issue rised here, about what intelectual property or technology should be public, and when.
Think about the AIDS vaccine, do u really think that the company that finds out the formula to cure this ill will share the formula to all others farmaceutical companies, just like that?, Think again.
About this dump, I think that probably not all of us are really interested in the game. But it could be almost morbid to play such rarety, I think thats the main reason to have interest in this game.
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2000
- Posts
- 13,852
Do you know how this test material works Billy? You do know that any and all promotional material is owned by the copyright owner at all times and that you merely have the use, but not ownership of said item. At anytime the parent company could ask for its return and it must be returned. Also, these test items are not to be transfered or sold ever, as per most likely an agreement with the original owner of this cart, who is in clear violation. Of course this is seldom ever the case, and companies hardly ever care... but whether they care or not, they could still ask for the items return,
-Nick
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2000
- Posts
- 13,852
<img src="http://foetusized.org/co-stick.gif" alt=" - " />
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2001
- Posts
- 908
Again this amounts to nothing more then "reaching". Yes, what you state here is "somewhat" true, but it applies to EVERYTHING in life! Obviously when one purchases a music CD, or a movie DVD, or a video game, they are legally purchasing a "copy" of the original "studio" item. And they are NOT receiving (along with it) the "rights" to use said item in whatever way they choose, such as charging admission to a public display. However this material item cannot be "confiscated". That is absolutely ridiculous!
This item may be one of the "holy grails" in the neo-geo community (at the present time anyway), but you can be damn sure that it is quite USELESS to Playmore (SNK)! They have ALL of the protos on some computer someplace, so if/when they ever needed that data, they certainly would not need to look for it or confiscate it from us! lol
I detect a clear case of bitterness in your writing. You need to let this issue go. Let me re-state that...your the ONLY one here who even has an issue! If the roles were reversed, and this game was in your possession right now, and I was the one pulling silly notions out of thin air, you would be laughing at me!
I am trying to be nice here, both by actually replying to your post (in essence reluctantly taking your bait), as well as wording what I write nicely. Please be just as respectfull of my time (which is limited for this thread) and only bring up questions or issues that are valid.
By the way, your driver's licence does not belong to you. It belongs to the state. Driving a vehicle is a privilidge in this country, NOT a right. It CAN be taken away by the state at any time. This one does actually work the way you describe. This IS a REAL example of what you speak of.
Billy Pitt
Amano Jacu
Charles Barkley
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2001
- Posts
- 8,594
Sorry, but your examples don't make sense. When I go to a shop and buy a regularly released music CD, I'm paying the releasing company for the pleasure of listening to it in that format. That's their intention. But it's not comparable in any way to the case we are discussing. When a company releases a pre-version product that is just for exhibition purposes, it can't be resold without the company's permission.
Notice that I'm not accusing you for owning it, I don't think Playmore would care about you, but I think the fault here was from the person that actually sold it to you, making quite a lot of profit, I'm sure. I would go for that one.
The proto is quite useless to Playmore! Holy shit, then why don't release the rom, if they don't mind? Hey, I'm also an arcade dealer (I buy and sell MVS carts, that's for sure) so can I just have the rom to be able to test it too, just like you? I promise I will only distribute it to arcade dealers too!
The driver's license is out of the question too. It's just a piece of paper that says you have the permission to do something, and is to be used only by the person who it was entitled for. If you want to use this example, what is illegal here is selling it to somebody else for profit to be used in a different way it was intended for. What does this example say to you?
Billy, I can assure you that if the roles were reversed now everybody who wants to have a go at this game would be playing it right now.
Billy, I do know this thread is a loss of time and that you have made your mind and feel as justified as you ever need to be. But I just want you to think a bit about your position.
<small>[ July 13, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Amano Jacu ]</small>
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2000
- Posts
- 13,852
No Billy, I am not trying to be a dick, I am not attacking you either. I am refering to the promotional items given to record stores, radio stations, and etc... That is where that sticker is from. They are similar to the promos sent to arcades in that there is an agreement that the item is only for testing and not for ownership or sale... Look, Billy, I've worked with these promo things for years and never once had anyone ever ask for it back, like I stated above, but it is possible (JUST HIGHLY UNLIKELY). I think you are taking my words as a personal attack, or that I think you should loose your copy... not so, just stating fact... so don't keep skirting around it while trying to put me down...
-Nick
-Nick
I can honestly say I have an emulator installed on my pc, but i can also honestly say that I NEVER use it to play games.
So why bother? Simple, screen grabs for my fan made inserts. Seriously, I just dont feel like emulators serve much of a purpose other than that, at least not to everyday people like myself.
As an excuse that you dont want to pay out for games, well im sorry, but thats just pathetic. There are limitless options to play neo titles on the cheap, such as phantom convertors for AES owners, majority of cd games are cheap, you can build a jamma rig for around 100 dollars, or you can enjoy release both old and recent on other formats.
If you feel like saying that none of those methods are on a par with the neo release (i hate snes fatal furys) then thats tough, pay for the quality and enjoy.
Use of emulation to save money on playing games harms the industry, and also devalues the appreciation of a game.
So why bother? Simple, screen grabs for my fan made inserts. Seriously, I just dont feel like emulators serve much of a purpose other than that, at least not to everyday people like myself.
As an excuse that you dont want to pay out for games, well im sorry, but thats just pathetic. There are limitless options to play neo titles on the cheap, such as phantom convertors for AES owners, majority of cd games are cheap, you can build a jamma rig for around 100 dollars, or you can enjoy release both old and recent on other formats.
If you feel like saying that none of those methods are on a par with the neo release (i hate snes fatal furys) then thats tough, pay for the quality and enjoy.
Use of emulation to save money on playing games harms the industry, and also devalues the appreciation of a game.
Amano Jacu
Charles Barkley
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2001
- Posts
- 8,594
We are not discussing about the legitimacy of playing released games in the emulator other than for trial purposes, we all know that is wrong. I agree with most of your post. But I also use the emu in order to try the games, and if I like them I buy the MVS version for dirt cheap, as I agree the emu is just a pale version of the game and I can't stand playing it for more than a while. What's wrong in doing so with the older titles (doing this with games that has just been released is a crime)?
I only want the Ghost Lop rom to be released in order to TRY this game, I doubt I'd play it for more than 30 minutes. The industry is not losing money here. That's all. And don't tell me I can try it by paying 3500$, I'm not going to do so for all the reasons I explained. And by the way, those 3500$ wouldn't go to help the industry.
you have a air point, it was not my intention to criticise you, im sorry if thats how I came across, and I do agree that paying large sums of money such as that is ridiculous. I guess its very easy to scrutinise the ghost lop rom as im not to bothered about it, due to the fact that there are quite a few good puzzlers anyway on the neo. I can understand to an extent as I would love to see what warlock of the fates is like.
Once again, if I ofended you, I apologise.
Once again, if I ofended you, I apologise.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2002
- Posts
- 1,147
There are only two possibilities:
1) Te actual proto owner stole the proto from Data Eat then, yes he owns it illegally.
2) Otherwise, if he bought it from another person he is a legal owner, he performed a standard purchase contract, that is to say he paid a price for a good.
How this proto went out from Data East is another story and all the previous purchases/transactions should be traced in order to determine if this proto left that firm legally. While this is not proved the actual owner has a legit right.
If the previous seller/holder was not entitled to do so then he was the one infringing the law, not the new buyer who bought it under good faith.
Anyhow, nobody has the right to ask for a bumping of this proto. This is illegal all the way, should you like it or not the law is the law. If the seller does not want to bump it that’s up to him.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2001
- Posts
- 4,042
<img src="http://www.neo-geo.com/ubb/edit_ubb6.gif" alt=" - " />
Amano Jacu
Charles Barkley
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2001
- Posts
- 8,594
No problem, I didn't feel ofended, I just wanted to discuss a bit our very similar, but not identhical, opinions. By the way, as supergoose says I've observed in this and other threads that you have the nasty habit of replying twice or even 3 times in a row to the same thread, please use the edit function instead, thanks.
Well, I only want to play it for curiosity. That's all. I'm not that desperate at all, in fact I couldn't care less if it wasn't dumped. But I think the neo community deserves the pleasure to try this game, not only one person.
At Pep: I'm not a law expert but what you said makes sense. But there's a big gap between the real law and the practical law. In my opinion, and I could be wrong, that proto was send to some arcade dealer by Data East only for trial purposes. After that they didn't care to have the proto back (as Billy said, the proto itself is useless to Data East), and it was stored somewhere during years, til Billy managed to discover where it was and somebody that had access to it illegally sold it to him without authorization from Data East, making a big profit.
OK, this is only a guess, and maybe it wasn't like this, but I bet it was very similar, maybe with somebody else other than Billy buying it the first time and then reaching his hands though a chain of trades.
Would the release of the rom be illegal? Yes, I'm not arguing about that. Does it really matter in a practical way? I don't think so. Think about this.
Fist Of Legend
Kula's Candy
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2002
- Posts
- 300
if we can't play it, we can hear it ! 
<a href="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/fistoflegend/ghostlop.mp3" target="_blank">ghostlop soundtrack</a>
<small>[ July 14, 2003, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Fist Of Legend ]</small>
<a href="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/fistoflegend/ghostlop.mp3" target="_blank">ghostlop soundtrack</a>
<small>[ July 14, 2003, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Fist Of Legend ]</small>