Gun Lord - Another new game by NG:DEV Team

[SignOfGoob]

If they outsource the pcb manufacturing to China, the game is probably going to end up on the next revision of the multicart.

Nah, just have them leave one (or all) of the chips off and install it by hand once you get the things. The PCBs themselves are the difficult things to make. Soldering in ROMs is a cinch.

Anyway, here's my opinion. I am not a Neo-Elitist, at least not by the standards set around here for that sort of thing. That is to say, I bought everything on Neo CD or Saturn back in the day and switched to MVS when they became easy to afford. I love the Neo and will take the real deal over any port, but I only paid $18 for my KOF 98 cart. So anyway, this is where I'm coming from.

I think its really stupid to complain about the price of releases from NG: DEV. They should charge whatever it takes to continue releasing games. I can't afford them (the Neo versions anyway) and frankly I don't even really want them very much, but this is a very small market we are talking about. Sure they could "go large" and sell more copies at a lower price, but if they didn't guess the ratios right they cold also go completely broke.

People are used to homebrew developers making zero money. Actually, that's probably not true. Most homebrew devs actually lose money. NG: DEV doesn't want to PAY YOU to TAKE the game off their hands. I seriously doubt that even at the high prices they charge they are making as much money off these things as they make from their day jobs.

If you can't afford an $800 MVS game (or whatever it costs) then hey, neither can I. Welcome to planet Earth. It would be insane to pay that anyway. I'm no wealth worshiping wanabe player, but I'm also not a chiseling cheap-ass that wants other people to give me good shit for free.

If the game itself ends up being really awesome, buy it on DC for $50 or whatever. The only reason to get the Neo one is for the charm...and if you want the charm, you have to pay.

 

[Lochlan]

lol

There are, first of all, two kinds of authors: those who write for the subject’s sake, and those who write for writing’s sake. The first kind have had thoughts or experiences which seem to them worth communicating, while the second kind need money and consequently write for money.

It is certain that this will be yet another clumsy aping of superior (and much older) Japanese games. If NGDEV team was at all interested in making good games, rather than exposing us all to this desperate and mediocre money grab, they would continue to explore a single genre--so that they could actually learn something about how to design a good game. (And, furthermore, they would properly debug their games.)

Like the rest of their output, this game will be purchased exclusively by collectors who will keep it on a shelf and will never 1cc anything before they die.

 

[SignOfGoob]

There are, first of all, two kinds of authors: those who write for the subject’s sake, and those who write for writing’s sake. The first kind have had thoughts or experiences which seem to them worth communicating, while the second kind need money and consequently write for money.

It is certain that this will be yet another clumsy aping of superior (and much older) Japanese games. If NGDEV team was at all interested in making good games, rather than exposing us all to this desperate and mediocre money grab, they would continue to explore a single genre--so that they could actually learn something about how to design a good game. (And, furthermore, they would properly debug their games.)

Like the rest of their output, this game will be purchased exclusively by collectors who will keep it on a shelf and will never 1cc anything before they die.

This is such bullshit.

Do you think Fatal Fury Special was funded by some endowment of the arts, programmed by homeless dudes, and played only by devote monks in arcades where everything is set to free play?

You do realize that profit was a major motivator for SNK during all of their best and worst projects, right? You realize they had huge dev teams (by comparison) and a staff of bug checkers and still glitches are not exactly rare in SNK games.

Some people only do it for the money (Acclaim) and some do it completely for the love (annual Bung coding competition) but there is a broad range of middle ground, and the vast majority of all software comes from that middle ground. If you want cheap games, play freeware homebrew Neo ROMs in an emulator. What? The few that exist are mostly no fun? Hm...interesting...

Its true that the people who buy these games will never actually play them, but that's always been true of Neo "collector" types (people who want to play it will just buy the DC one, which is very affordably priced) and its been that way with art for centuries. The people who actually funded Mozart's work didn't know WTF they were listing too either, they were just the spoilt rich fanboys of their own day.

This is a lot of jealousy for a game that will probably be quite a bit too "European" for your average SNK fan's taste anyway. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you can't afford it and you don't like it (which I suspect is most of us) then...you guessed it, then why the hell do you even give a shit?. If Fast Striker looks interesting do you, then buy Iridion on GBA, its got most of the same stuff going on and its $5.

 

[Hewitson]

The bottom line is why the fuck is the DC version cheap while the MVS is hundreds of dollars. It's the same game. A cartridge does not cost much to produce, ROM is dirt cheap these days and has been for a very long time.

 

[Dr Shroom]

The bottom line is why the fuck is the DC version cheap while the MVS is hundreds of dollars. It's the same game. A cartridge does not cost much to produce, ROM is dirt cheap these days and has been for a very long time.

Because there are idiots like me who buy games for such ridiclous prices.

 

[moonwhistle]

It's obvious that they specifically chose the Neo Geo platform to develope for so they could charge these prices. That's just the way it is. If you want it cheap buy the DC version.

Whoever said that the prices they charge are 400% more than when the Neo Geo AES was on the market is completely wrong. Neo Geo AES games were about $300-400 when they were new releases. With inflation that's the same if not more than NG DEV team charge. It's a moot point anyway because there's little point in comparing official releases with unlicenced homebrew.

Good point about sticking to one genre. I think they want to fleece daft collectors across the full range of game genres rather than stick to one and actually improve their output.

 

[distropia]

If they outsource the pcb manufacturing to China, the game is probably going to end up on the next revision of the multicart.

Probably, but do you think that isn't gonna happen even if NGdev develop the cart in the US?
Anyways, as you'll know, those multigame carts die after some months (due to crappy manufacture)
IMHO I think who would buy this cart is people that really appreciate what the real thing is. We do not use emulators, we avoid bootlegs...
Take a look at the big user community in this forum (8326 users at this time)... If only 1000 of us buy this cart at a decent price, the developers would make big bucks! For example:
1000 copies X $60 profit = $60000
100 copies X $400 profit = $40000

 

[Kim Woo]

Fast Striker is cool and worth every penny, i'm sure this game will be great.

The real issue for those talking about cost I assume is that it is no longer possible to visit the local arcade and spend a few coins on a new MVS release or just watch and admire it being played.

 

[Lochlan]

Do you think Fatal Fury Special was funded by some endowment of the arts, programmed by homeless dudes, and played only by devote monks in arcades where everything is set to free play?

I think it was made by people who were at the height of their craft during the greatest era in gaming, and who were in it for things other than only money.

Of course money factors in, as it does with almost everything--but craftsmanship should be a large part of it as well, and I genuinely don't believe it is with NGDEV team.

If you can't afford it and you don't like it (which I suspect is most of us) then...you guessed it, then why the hell do you even give a shit?

I can afford it. I just would rather play, y'know, good games. As for why I care, well, I just really love video games.

 

[Hewitson]

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that SNK (along with a number of other companies) made games for much more than just money.

Ocean, on the other hand...

 

[Jaelus]

Of course money factors in, as it does with almost everything--but craftsmanship should be a large part of it as well, and I genuinely don't believe it is with NGDEV team.

I can't speak for Last Hope since I haven't played it, but I know quite a few people who purchased Fast Striker (myself included) and everyone likes it. Due to the price, people tend to compare it to the seminal works in the genre that you could buy for that amount of money (some of which are on more advanced hardware). While that is definitely a valid comparison and argument against buying it, I don't think it's a fair comparison from a development quality standpoint. This is a small development team, and the Neo has its hardware limitations. While it's not in the top of its genre, Fast Striker is by no means a bad game either. Since it's on the Neo, I compare it to other Neo shooters, and quite favorably. They really got a lot of performance out of the Neo with this game, and the hardware design is very admirable. They designed with the ability to upgrade the game in the future, and even built in a hardware failsafe that lets you recover in the event that it gets corrupted during an update.

I love the Neo, and I don't mind paying a bit more than I normally would to support all the hard work that goes into a professional quality homebrew release. It keeps things interesting on the Neo scene.

 

[Xian Xi]

Cost is cost. They'll sell carts no matter what price they set it at. My point about the peice is just that it's 2011 and to this day the Neo still is the most expensive as far as releases go no matter official or not. Of course they deserve to get what they charge but they need to think about the consumer, bring down the cost by making bigger batches.

Case and point, fast striker was a relatively small run and now they announce that another print will come. If they made a bigger batch from the get go more people would have bought it. I don't know if it's limited funds that keeps the runs small or maybe they aren't confident in their end product to make a large amount to keep costs down fearing they will be stuck with multiple copies unsold.

 

[Dolphin]

I haven't paid serious attention to these releases until now. A new run-and-gun for the Neo is conceptually exciting, but not to the tune of $800.00.

 

[SSS]

At the current exchange rate $800 US is about 60 Neo $'s.

Which is fair for a new release. Consider those $30 US MVS titles like sam sho 3 $2.50 in Neo dollars which is equivalent to the old Playstation bargin bins at gamestop.

 

[Dolphin]

At the current exchange rate $800 US is about 60 Neo $'s.

Which is fair for a new release. Consider those $30 US MVS titles like sam sho 3 $2.50 in Neo dollars which is equivalent to the old Playstation bargin bins at gamestop.

Your inflation argument doesn't hold water. There are very clear deflationary trends at work within the domain of consumer electronics and other consumer technology products. Sure, there is rampant inflation ongoing in the food and energy sectors, but within the category where one would place a game, the trend is toward deflation.

 

[Hewitson]

$800 fair? You've got to be fuckin kidding. Anyone who spends that sort of money on one cartridge has more money than sense.

 

[SSS]

You're never going to be a big tymer with that kind of attitude.

 

[Jaelus]

There are very clear deflationary trends at work within the domain of consumer electronics and other consumer technology products. Sure, there is rampant inflation ongoing in the food and energy sectors, but within the category where one would place a game, the trend is toward deflation.

This really isn't a valid comparison. The arcade market is a niche market not directly comparable to consumer electronics as a whole and Neo Geo is an extreme subset of that niche market.

Anyone who spends that sort of money on one cartridge has more money than sense.

This whole hobby is about paying 10 times more, hell even 100+ times more for games that are cheaply available on other systems or on mame for free. Even aside from the games, people spend thousands on cabinets for an authentic experience when they could just use the tv or computer they already have. Is that nonsensical? This hobby is all about the willingness to spend disposable income because you think the real deal is worth it.

 

[Hewitson]

You're never going to be a big tymer with that kind of attitude.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm not here to win a popularity contest mate

 

[Dolphin]

This really isn't a valid comparison. The arcade market is a niche market not directly comparable to consumer electronics as a whole and Neo Geo is an extreme subset of that niche market.

It is valid if you're taking into account the cost of the raw materials that go into the finished product.

 

[Hewitson]

1000 copies X $60 profit = $60000
100 copies X $400 profit = $40000

In my opinion, no more needs to be said. distropia has far more business sense than NG DEV TEAM ever will.

 

[Jaelus]

It is valid if you're taking into account the cost of the raw materials that go into the finished product.

Lots of expensive things are made from relatively cheap raw materials. Besides, if you're going to look at the value of direct materials you also need to include the value of direct labor. That shit don't cost a dollar. I think the Dreamcast version was priced cheaper than it should have been, but then again they can easily print cds on demand with no cost. The kits take a lot of planning in advance and probably cost something like ~$60 not including labor. A lot of risk in over producing which cuts your ability to get volume discounts.

 

[SNKorSWM]

Its true that the people who buy these games will never actually play them, but that's always been true of Neo "collector" types (people who want to play it will just buy the DC one, which is very affordably priced) and its been that way with art for centuries. The people who actually funded Mozart's work didn't know WTF they were listing too either, they were just the spoilt rich fanboys of their own day.

Like the rest of their output, this game will be purchased exclusively by collectors who will keep it on a shelf and will never 1cc anything before they die.

Here's a record of my 1cc (as well as Neo Alec's). It's under MVS section:

http://ranking.ngdevteam.com/index.php

It's usually the homecart versions that people are reluctant to insert into their home systems for fear of creating scratches. That's not really a problem for mvs carts.

Take a look at the big user community in this forum (8326 users at this time)... If only 1000 of us buy this cart at a decent price, the developers would make big bucks! For example:
1000 copies X $60 profit = $60000
100 copies X $400 profit = $40000

1000 copies X $60 profit = $60000 Dreamcast version
100 copies X $400 profit = $40000 MVS version

Hey if they're going to make money, might as well go both ways.

 

[Lochlan]

Due to the price, people tend to compare it to the seminal works in the genre that you could buy for that amount of money (some of which are on more advanced hardware). While that is definitely a valid comparison and argument against buying it, I don't think it's a fair comparison from a development quality standpoint. This is a small development team, and the Neo has its hardware limitations.

While their work is impressive for such a small team (two people and some occasional collaborators for things like playtesting, or so I've read) that doesn't negate that their games are competing for my attention alongside the entire history of videogames. Why play Fast Striker instead of a Cave PCB, or another better-designed game?

I think the best thing that can be said of Fast Striker is that it's certainly better than their earlier titles (which were abysmal), which demonstrates that their STG design tastes are improving. But, instead of improving their rule systems within the context of a STG, which would be the next logical step for improving their game design, they are changing genres--which is the next logical step for their NG game engine design, platform-based games having a somewhat more complex game mechanic than STGs in terms of programming (due to the "gravity," increased emphasis on collision detection, non-forced scrolling, etc.). I do wonder if they've run out of STG ideas after having made Fast Striker...although, I think it's more likely that they simply believe improving upon Fast Striker would be a more difficult task than changing the genre.

At this rate, maybe their 10th game will be good. They're certainly doing a much better job of making games than any other western "indie" developers, but, on the other hand, their games can't compete with the best Japanese Doujin STGs

Here's a record of my 1cc

There are always a few outliers. Since I have not made any serious attempt to master the game, I am curious to know from you: how difficult was it for you to 1cc it compared with other danmaku?

There are very clear deflationary trends at work within the domain of consumer electronics and other consumer technology products.

The real economic argument is that old Neo games were released for use in an arcade where the operater could recoup his costs and then some.

NGDEV team might be economic geniuses. Their Neo Geo releases create a speculative market. They can command such high prices because some people believe that the games' value will appreciate, which is probably true. As the sealed games phenomenon has proven, there is a (detestable) class of collectors who will buy a game without regard for its intrinsic value, but instead solely for its rarity and economic sign value. That is, for the most part at least, the class of people who are buying these Neo Geo releases.

 

[Jaelus]

While their work is impressive for such a small team (two people and some occasional collaborators for things like playtesting, or so I've read) that doesn't negate that their games are competing for my attention alongside the entire history of videogames. Why play Fast Striker instead of a Cave PCB, or another better-designed game?

Absolutely I agree, however, I can still think of many reasons a buyer might want it over another better-designed game:

• They might already have all the other games they're interested in, removing the competing opportunities for purchase.
• They might want to play it because it's new and otherwise unavailable to try. Certainly before release the quality was unknown.
• They might want it for speculative purposes. If you can buy it, try it, and sell it for the same or more than you paid then there's little reason not to buy.
• They might want it simply because they're a Neo collector.
• Since a Neo cab is the best single cab to own due to the great library, multi slot boards, and small cart size, I could see a lot of people only owning a Neo cab. If they're not interested in arcade hardware other than Neo, the competing games might not be considered. Keep in mind also you can't 'tate the monitor on a big red so...
• They might want it because it's vertizontal if they don't have the room for a dedicated vert cab.
• They might also buy it if money is not an object; they don't really need a reason then.

I think the best thing that can be said of Fast Striker is that it's certainly better than their earlier titles (which were abysmal), which demonstrates that their STG design tastes are improving. But, instead of improving their rule systems within the context of a STG, which would be the next logical step for improving their game design, they are changing genres--which is the next logical step for their NG game engine design, platform-based games having a somewhat more complex game mechanic than STGs in terms of programming (due to the "gravity," increased emphasis on collision detection, non-forced scrolling, etc.). I do wonder if they've run out of STG ideas after having made Fast Striker...although, I think it's more likely that they simply believe improving upon Fast Striker would be a more difficult task than changing the genre.

I think this is in part due to hardware limitations they ran into trying to further develop ideas in Fast Striker. For example adding 2P could not be done. Refining a genre is also more risky to do than switching to a new one. When you refine, you expose yourself to more criticism as your target audience becomes more hard core within the genre. They know very specifically what they like and do not like. With a new genre, it's unknown again.

NGDEV team might be economic geniuses. Their Neo Geo releases create a speculative market. They can command such high prices because some people believe that the games' value will appreciate, which is probably true. As the sealed games phenomenon has proven, there is a (detestable) class of collectors who will buy a game without regard for its intrinsic value, but instead solely for its rarity and economic sign value. That is, for the most part at least, the class of people who are buying these Neo Geo releases.

I do think they know what they're doing. They limit risk by making smaller batches, price it high enough that they can still sell them out, and the retain the option to make additional batches as needed. I completely disagree with you on who is buying these though. I don't think sealed game collectors have much interest in releases outside of consoles. If it was AES, I could absolutely see it, but for MVS, I think that's the vast exception rather than the rule. Aside from me, I personally know four others who bought this and all of them only collect the games they want to play and they play the hell out of them.