The Metaphysical / Philosophical / Critical Terminator Salvation Thread

Hello, everybody.

I saw the Terminator Salvation movie last night. Yes, I know there is a thread already dedicated to this film, but I think the points below deserve a thread of their own, as well as their own discussion/debate and would probably be lost if I posted them in the other thread.

If you have not seen the movie, you probably don’t want to read below because I will give the movie away.

I thought the movie was okay, meaning, the idea for the movie was good, but it could have been done better had the producers and director not churned out a half-a** effort in an attempt at a quick-cash-grab off the Terminator franchise.

I acknowledge the Terminator series to be sci-fi/fantasy, but even then, I like a plot to be realistic, and not far-fetched as this one was. Most important of all, the plot should make sense, and in many instances, the plot to TS makes no sense at all.

Here are some points of the movie that make no sense at all:

1. Skynet identifies Kyle Reese as its #1 target for termination, but when Skynet captures him, what does it do? Kill him, right? Wrong. After going out of its way to capture and identify its #1 target for termination, Skynet keeps him alive and imprisons him so that John Connor can free him. Great idea, Hollywood. Like a machine is going to go against its own mission priorities to keep alive the suspense and drama.

2. Skynet creates Marcus Wright as a precursor to the T-800, and he is supposedly half-man, half-machine. But the whole dialogue between Marcus and the Skynet computer makes absolutely no sense after all. Skynet tries to reason with Marcus that he is a machine and is on Skynet’s side. Now, this is ridiculous. Skynet is trying to reason with Marcus, instead of simply programming him. And then, when Marcus decides that he is human, not machine, gee, Skynet not only doesn’t see that coming, but it also has no defense (e.g., other terminators or machines around) to attack Marcus or defend itself against him.

3. At the part when Arnold Schwarzaneggar appears in the film, he is the prototype T-800 lying in wait in a trap to kill John Connor. But while every other Terminator in the movie is armed with a Gatling machine gun, the very terminator that is being used in the trap to kill John Connor, the very one assigned this great mission, is completely unarmed, and instead of killing Connor, it simply smacks him around a bit.

4. Skynet headquarters are supposed to be heavily guarded so that both infiltration and escape are impossible, but John Connor finds his way in readily easily, and is able to move around quite easily without any Terminators finding him or knowing he is there. To make it worse, this was a trap for Connor laid out by Skynet, and it still has not terminators around to kill him while he wanders freely through Skynet HQ.

5. When John Connor finds the prison cells in Skynet, he is able to open them by what is essentially a manually-controlled switch. Ahem, but why would a completely mechanized base that is controlled by a computer and filled with machines have a switch panel for a human to open the cells? Hello?

6. Skynet headquarters are supposed to be heavily guarded so that both infiltration and escape are impossible (see # 4 above), but rescue choppers are able to fly in and rescue all the humans without a single terminator or Hunter-Killer or anything else for that matter opening fire on, or offering any sort of resistance to, the choppers.

I'm sure there are other parts to the movie that made no sense to me, but I'll think of them later.

Anyhow, TS > T3, but that isn't saying much. TS wasn't bad, it just wasn't great, and it had the potential to be so.

TS is to T1/T2 what Phantom Menace is to Star Wars.

It is just a movie.

Something in T2 that made no sense.

At the end the liquid terminator shoved his hand (in spike form) through Sarah's arm and told her to call for John.

It was shown prior that the terminator was fully capable of mimicing people's voices (ie...when he mimiced John's foster mother over the phone).

In keeping in true terminator behavior, it would have just killed her on the spot and then mimiced her when approaching John, not leave her alive after demanding she do something it could do.

To me, that little quirk was a huge deal because up to that point, the T-1000 behaved just like Arnold did in T1, like a terminator. No bartering, no gimmicks, no small talk, no fucking around. Just a machine on a purpose. How relentless and to the point the terminator was in T1 and up to that point was what made them seem so dangerous. It toying around with Sara at the end made it seem like a human villain.

Abasuto said:

Something in T2 that made no sense.

At the end the liquid terminator shoved his hand (in spike form) through Sarah's arm and told her to call for John.

It was shown prior that the terminator was fully capable of mimicing people's voices (ie...when he mimiced John's foster mother over the phone).

In keeping in true terminator behavior, it would have just killed her on the spot and then mimiced her when approaching John, not leave her alive after demanding she do something it could do.

To me, that little quirk was a huge deal because up to that point, the T-1000 behaved just like Arnold did in T1, like a terminator. No bartering, no gimmicks, no small talk, no fucking around. Just a machine on a purpose. How relentless and to the point the terminator was in T1 and up to that point was what made them seem so dangerous. It toying around with Sara at the end made it seem like a human villain.

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It wasn't toying with her for the purpose of being sadistic. It was simply being strategic, trying the surest thing to lure John based the fact that he would respond to his mother being in distress. It was employing a logical strategy for the purpose of killing John, nothing more.

Abasuto said:

Something in T2 that made no sense.

At the end the liquid terminator shoved his hand (in spike form) through Sarah's arm and told her to call for John.

It was shown prior that the terminator was fully capable of mimicing people's voices (ie...when he mimiced John's foster mother over the phone).

In keeping in true terminator behavior, it would have just killed her on the spot and then mimiced her when approaching John, not leave her alive after demanding she do something it could do.

To me, that little quirk was a huge deal because up to that point, the T-1000 behaved just like Arnold did in T1, like a terminator. No bartering, no gimmicks, no small talk, no fucking around. Just a machine on a purpose. How relentless and to the point the terminator was in T1 and up to that point was what made them seem so dangerous. It toying around with Sara at the end made it seem like a human villain.

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The T-1000 had already failed to fool John by mimicking John's foster mom. It had to realize there was a good possibility John would see through a fake mom. Plus, seeing his mom in jeopardy would probably bring John faster than a wooden, fake mom asking for a hug.

Loopz said:

It wasn't toying with her for the purpose of being sadistic. It was simply being strategic, trying the surest thing to lure John based the fact that he would respond to his mother being in distress. It was employing a logical strategy for the purpose of killing John, nothing more.

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It had the ability to mimic Sara and lure John itself and leaving her alive (knowing she's trying everything to stop it) was a pure liability; illogical.

Every other person it mimiced in the process of hunting down John it killed, yet it let someone trying to destroy it live ?

SouthtownKid said:

The T-1000 had already failed to fool John by mimicking John's foster mom. It had to realize there was a good possibility John would see through a fake mom.

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Good point.

This is best arguement as to why it let her live instead of just taking her out I've ever heard.

Lastblade said:

It is just a movie.

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True, but I don't enjoy a movie that serves no other purpose than to entertain. I prefer a movie that stimulates intellectual thought.

McG.


That's all I have to say. This guy is a yes-man director for hire.

That being said, I still had hopes that this film could at least be watchable. Yes, it lacked what made T1 and 2 special; they were born of one man's vision and brought to life with the assistance of artists and talented special effects experts.

With T4, (and this is only judging by reviews) it's committee, committee, committee.


In regards to the T2 and that Sarah scene, you have to remember that the whole plot, logically, makes little sense. Drama, suspense and action come before logic in most action movies' storylines anyways. The fact that T2 works so well should be enough to ignore some of these small problems.

Bibliophile said:

True, but I don't enjoy a movie that serves no other purpose than to entertain. I prefer a movie that stimulates intellectual thought.

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uh yeah, I think you should look for that in other films, not action/scifi movies.

kernow said:

uh yeah, I think you should look for that in other films, not action/scifi movies.

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There's nothing wrong with injecting a little dime store intellectualism into action flicks - or desiring it. I thought it worked really well for Minority Report.

Abasuto said:

Good point.

This is best arguement as to why it let her live instead of just taking her out I've ever heard.

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After rationalizing some of the stuff that happened in Revenge of the Sith, making excuses for T2 poses little challenge for me.

Abasuto said:

To me, that little quirk was a huge deal because up to that point, the T-1000 behaved just like Arnold did in T1, like a terminator. No bartering, no gimmicks, no small talk, no fucking around. Just a machine on a purpose. How relentless and to the point the terminator was in T1 and up to that point was what made them seem so dangerous. It toying around with Sara at the end made it seem like a human villain.

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This is what didn't make sense about TS. Skynet captures Kyle Reese but does not kill him.

Then when the T-800 attacks Connor, it is unarmed and just toys with him, smacking him around rather than straight up killing him.

I enjoy these movies as pure escapism. Pure and simple.

I mean, if we're really gonna get deep on Skynet...wouldn't it be easier for them to simply crank out nuclear weapons and continue to just bomb every nook and cranny of the Earth except for their own installations? I mean, if they're that hellbent on wiping out humanity, that would be a much simpler solution, rather than all of these cockamamie schemes involving retroactive time-travel abortions and killer cyborgs.

Fact is, the entire premise of this saga is pretty far-fetched. You either accept the rules of it, that Skynet is in fact a beatable entity, rallied against by a single man who led humans back from the brink...or you may as well just reject the whole thing. Yeah, there's some big holes in TS if you pick at it...but check the calendar man. It's summertime. Time for big explosions, killer robots, you name it. I just want something that doesn't completely insult my intelligence (cough cough, TRANSFORMERS). I'm willing to suspend disbelief if it's done in an entertaining way.

Michael Bay makes McG look like fucking Kubrick.

Loopz said:

Michael Bay makes McG look like fucking Kubrick.

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AMEN!

Loopz said:

I enjoy these movies as pure escapism. Pure and simple.

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This is part of my problem. I like movies like books, ones that stimulate, or are the result of, some level of thought. I haven't read an escapist novel since 1996, so I guess my taste in books is somewhat reflected in my critical thinking of movies.

I mean, if we're really gonna get deep on Skynet...wouldn't it be easier for them to simply crank out nuclear weapons and continue to just bomb every nook and cranny of the Earth except for their own installations? I mean, if they're that hellbent on wiping out humanity, that would be a much simpler solution, rather than all of these cockamamie schemes involving retroactive time-travel abortions and killer cyborgs.

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Well, it could, except for the fact that Skynet supposedly used all its nukes on Judgment day against Russia. So it may be that it exhausted its supply of nukes, and has to resort to conventional weaponry to wipe out the survivors of Judgment Day.

Fact is, the entire premise of this saga is pretty far-fetched. You either accept the rules of it, that Skynet is in fact a beatable entity, rallied against by a single man who led humans back from the brink...or you may as well just reject the whole thing. Yeah, there's some big holes in TS if you pick at it...but check the calendar man. It's summertime. Time for big explosions, killer robots, you name it. I just want something that doesn't completely insult my intelligence (cough cough, TRANSFORMERS). I'm willing to suspend disbelief if it's done in an entertaining way.

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Here is where I disagree. A sci-fi/fantasy film can still have a plausible plot, if done well. T1 did. T2 did. T3 broke the chain. TS was an opportunity to follow in the footsteps of T1 and T2, but it didn't. Instead, the writers just churned out a shallow plot to just rake in summer blockbuster bucks.

Bibliophile said:

Well, it could, except for the fact that Skynet supposedly used all its nukes on Judgment day against Russia. So it may be that it exhausted its supply of nukes, and has to result to conventional weaponry to wipe out the survivors of Judgment Day.

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All the various Skynet mecha are powered with nuclear cells. I'm pretty sure building another simple nuclear weapon is a hell of a lot simpler than producing endless waves of aerials, HKs and various T units.
I'm just saying that if you really pick at it, all the Terminator movies are just as far-fetched, T1 and 2 included. I think you're allowing nostalgia to color your mindset over just how 'bulletproof' the plots from those earlier films were.

Abasuto said:

It had the ability to mimic Sara and lure John itself and leaving her alive (knowing she's trying everything to stop it) was a pure liability; illogical.

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I haven't seen the Special Edition (or at least I don't remember, it all melts together) but here's a quote from Wikipedia:

"While pursuing the protagonists, the T-1000 is frozen with liquid nitrogen until it becomes brittle and shatters. However, when the pieces melt, it is able to reconstitute itself. At this point in the theatrical cut of the film, the T-1000 has suffered no apparent damage at all, leaving the protagonists wondering if anything will destroy it. In the Special Edition, the freezing and subsequent shattering causes the T-1000 to glitch repeatedly, melding with any metal it touches, such as the catwalks and hand rails, enabling John Connor to see through its ruse when it impersonates his mother."

In that case, it makes sense why it had to capture the mother.

Regarding the rest of this thread, yes, it would have been great if the last half of the movie didn't suck with the numerous plot holes. However, much like the Predator franchise, there isn't a lot of depth in this particular genre. It's mainly meant to be pure entertainment. It would be great to have more depth in the movie, but to infuse it with that would easily make it as complicated and ultimately illogical as what turned out with the Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions.

Sincerely,

Mikhail

Kiselgof said:

I haven't seen the Special Edition (or at least I don't remember, it all melts together) but here's a quote from Wikipedia:

"While pursuing the protagonists, the T-1000 is frozen with liquid nitrogen until it becomes brittle and shatters. However, when the pieces melt, it is able to reconstitute itself. At this point in the theatrical cut of the film, the T-1000 has suffered no apparent damage at all, leaving the protagonists wondering if anything will destroy it. In the Special Edition, the freezing and subsequent shattering causes the T-1000 to glitch repeatedly, melding with any metal it touches, such as the catwalks and hand rails, enabling John Connor to see through its ruse when it impersonates his mother."

In that case, it makes sense why it had to capture the mother.

Regarding the rest of this thread, yes, it would have been great if the last half of the movie didn't suck with the numerous plot holes. However, much like the Predator franchise, there isn't a lot of depth in this particular genre. It's mainly meant to be pure entertainment. It would be great to have more depth in the movie, but to infuse it with that would easily make it as complicated and ultimately illogical as what turned out with the Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions.

Sincerely,

Mikhail

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The liquid nitrogen truck made no sense to me. I have never in my life seen a semi truck carrying a giant tank of liquid nitrogen.

OrochiEddie said:

The liquid nitrogen truck made no sense to me. I have never in my life seen a semi truck carrying a giant tank of liquid nitrogen.

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How do they do it where you're from -- wheelbarrow?

SouthtownKid said:

How do they do it where you're from -- wheelbarrow?

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donkey pulled cart




















obviously

Loopz said:

All the various Skynet mecha are powered with nuclear cells. I'm pretty sure building another simple nuclear weapon is a hell of a lot simpler than producing endless waves of aerials, HKs and various T units.

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Okay, Loopz. I am trying to not debate from a scientific point of view, but the temptation is still there. Forgive me.

Building a nuclear weapon is not necessarily easier than building nuclear cells. Nuclear cells are probably miniature versions of the technology found in nuclear power plants. Nuclear weapons are far more complicated than nuclear power plants, as shown by the fact that many countries have nuclear power, but only a handful of them have been able to develop nuclear weapons.

Now keep in mind, we are assuming that skynet has the know-how to build a nuclear weapon, but even if so, it might not have sufficient material to do so.

Another possibility is that maybe the survivors are to be found in areas that are close to Skynet installations, so it can't nuke them without nuking itself.

But that is all beside the point. I don't think T4 needed to be perfect, just plausible. I don't think it is necessary for every movie to come out of Hollywood to pass muster by Caltech physicists and a board of Los Alamos researchers, but I do think the writers should do a better effort of trying to write a plot than one that just leaves the viewer thinking "yeah, whatever," or "lame," or something along those lines.

I'm just saying that if you really pick at it, all the Terminator movies are just as far-fetched, T1 and 2 included. I think you're allowing nostalgia to color your mindset over just how 'bulletproof' the plots from those earlier films were.

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Well, not really. I don't think they are bulletproof, but at least they are plausible.

However, I do think there is one serious flaw in the plots of both T1 and T2, which I readily admitted here:

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2565149&highlight=terminator#post2565149

Abasuto said:

Good point.

This is best arguement as to why it let her live instead of just taking her out I've ever heard.

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Actually I think the T-1000 was already severely damaged by the liquid nitrogen. Check the deleted scenes on the T2 DVD and you'll see a part where the T-1000 has trouble keeping his form, suggesting that attack severely damaged his ability to morph (and perhaps mimic through voice) as well.

EDIT: I see this was touched upon earlier in the thread.

If Kyle Reese had to travel back in time to father John Conner, how did Conner ever come into existence to begin with so he could send his own father back in time?

Didn't Skynet come into existence because they used parts from the original Terminator to create advanced technology? So Skynet couldn't have been created in the original timeline because there was no Terminator there to be destroyed. Or was Skynet just created a different way in the original timeline?

Time travel is a clusterfuck, just enjoy the ride.

genjiglove said:

If Kyle Reese had to travel back in time to father John Conner, how did Conner ever come into existence to begin with so he could send his own father back in time?

Didn't Skynet come into existence because they used parts from the original Terminator to create advanced technology? So Skynet couldn't have been created in the original timeline because there was no Terminator there to be destroyed. Or was Skynet just created a different way in the original timeline?

Time travel is a clusterfuck, just enjoy the ride.

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The Star Trek movies do that kind of bullshit every time they go back in time.