The Walking Dead TV series courtesy of AMC.
- Thread starter Average Joe
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2001
- Posts
- 6,416
So, just to clear things up -
From the "Talking Dead" episode accompanying the show, the writer [don't recall his name - Google] specifically says "There was a line earlier Herschel said - when he was wrangling the walkers with Rick - 'This used to be Otis' job, but now we have to do it', so that tells us Otis put her in the barn, and he was never aware they were looking for her because the awareness of the search came after Herschel fixed the gunshot wound on Carl - which he didn't live to see"
He also said they shot several variations on the endings - including one where Sophia looks as she did, but they do a back-shot and we see how badly she's eaten from behind, and another where she walks out non-zombie because that's what the characters wanted to see - a way to humanize the walkers (and play off the feeling of shooting someone they knew, as they just shot Herschel's wife). The point of all the makeup choices for that scene was to be non-gory and as human as possible to set the right emotional tone for that sequence.
From the "Talking Dead" episode accompanying the show, the writer [don't recall his name - Google] specifically says "There was a line earlier Herschel said - when he was wrangling the walkers with Rick - 'This used to be Otis' job, but now we have to do it', so that tells us Otis put her in the barn, and he was never aware they were looking for her because the awareness of the search came after Herschel fixed the gunshot wound on Carl - which he didn't live to see"
He also said they shot several variations on the endings - including one where Sophia looks as she did, but they do a back-shot and we see how badly she's eaten from behind, and another where she walks out non-zombie because that's what the characters wanted to see - a way to humanize the walkers (and play off the feeling of shooting someone they knew, as they just shot Herschel's wife). The point of all the makeup choices for that scene was to be non-gory and as human as possible to set the right emotional tone for that sequence.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Posts
- 60,434
HeartlessNinny
Heartlessness is a virtue
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2005
- Posts
- 14,664
It's still fucking stupid, and here's why.
Point one: Herschel doesn't want them around.
Point two: Herschel knows they're looking for a girl.
Point three: Rick's group is reluctant to leave without her.
Point four: Herschel knows he has a barn full of zombies, and given the fact the girl went missing in the immediate area, she could easily be in there.
Why not go have a look? He could see for himself the girl was in there, realize Rick & Co aren't going to find her, and start nudging him towards leaving. Or even just show them the girl... Whatever. The point is it would have been way, way easier for Herschel to get rid of them if he'd bothered to go look in his own goddamn barn.
It's almost like this show is stupid and poorly conceived. I'll try to hide my gasps.
You mean the other way 'round.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2002
- Posts
- 23,741
Ouch.
Anyway. My take on the episode last night.
I really enjoyed it. I felt as if the 'reveal' was a great use of the lost girl scenario. Did the entire scenario drag on for too long? Absolutely, but it gave the show the opportunity to have the group schism, showing a quick demonstration of each character and their motives. Shane has 'lost it' from a sense of a bygone society, but like Dale said, stands the best chance in this world. Rick is still willing to attempt to be neighborly (best word? I dunno.) with Herschel. He knows that the choice is to either respect the farm as not their own or leave. He understands that the group will be better off attempting to work it out and stay on the farm rather than hit the road. I even liked the split second 'scene' where Glenn asks permission from Maggie to join in on the zombie slaughter. I think Glenn gets it too.
The only thing that irked me about last nights episode was that Carl's lines don't seem to be well written for a child. He needs to be at least 5 years older before he starts speaking like that.
/ramble
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2001
- Posts
- 6,416
Heh. . . I think your 4 points are only point 4. But, given what Herschel thinks they'd do to the girl and that he doesn't want them to know he has a barn full of walkers, and that there's a tree and some grass skittle bowling vinegar - why didn't Glen or Dale have the same thought you did to check the barn for Sophia? Well, because essentially Shane just did that and now gets to point it out as icing on the cake to why he was right all along.
Edit: Any "they could have done this" talk could be trumped by: Shane could shoot Herschel and live happily ever after.
Edit: Any "they could have done this" talk could be trumped by: Shane could shoot Herschel and live happily ever after.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2011
- Posts
- 10,580
that happens in the comic, but i think the opposite will happen since there is now room for one more.
Anselm
Camel Slug
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Posts
- 503
Herschel made it very clear Otis always took care of gathering new walkers. Herschel also made it clear this was the first time he had to do it himself.
Glen was IN THE BARN and did not see her. Why? She is small and the barn is dark. Herschel had no reason to check the barn. He didn't know Otis did it, and why would he? She was verified alive shortly before the shooting.
To clarify...you think Herschel takes inventory of his zombies, throuroughly checks the barn for missing/added walkers, and the writers just totally blew this?
And here's one more rational explanation for you. Herschel did not want them to know about the barn. If he knew she was in there, do you think he felt they would look and go "Oh, we'll be on our way", or do you think he believed they would execute his family members stashed in the barn? He made the latter epicly clear on several occasions.
~Anselm~
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Posts
- 60,434
keep it civil.
Wachenroder
Galford's Poppy Trainer
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2010
- Posts
- 2,626
Excellent episode and a great way to close out the season. I'm loving the disparity between those who precariously cling to their humanity and those who give into their unmitigated visceral instinct to survive. Shane is one BAMF and is ready willing and able to do what it takes to survive. I love what they are doing with his character. His method may be short sighted but that doesn't make him wrong. I mean look at the shameful display Rick was reduced to. Playing zombie catcher for a crazy old man who doesn't know how to let go. I would have been pissed off too.
Also nice save at the end with Rick taking the shot. A slight vindication for his character and definitely a move in the right direction. I can't wait till next season.
Also nice save at the end with Rick taking the shot. A slight vindication for his character and definitely a move in the right direction. I can't wait till next season.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Posts
- 60,434
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2000
- Posts
- 19,380
The boldfaced point is precisely what I was thinking.
It's possible Herschel knew and, unable to reconcile the problem, was hoping they'd just be on their way. But once he got his 'in' to the group with Rick, their leader, he figured he might have had a chance getting the rest of his group to see his side of things.
Herschel doesn't believe that the wakers can't be saved. He is holding out hope that they can be cured somehow. He is acting on limited information, of course, but those are his beliefs and he clearly isn't going to be swayed from that.
There is probably some sentimental part of him that thinks he was doing the group a favor by hiding Sophia from them, provided he knew she was in there at all. He probably figured they'd just give up on her, and it's clear from the way he was able to compromise with Rick that he was hoping to make those inroads with them to get them to not be so hasty to off the zombies as purely walking, motorized death.
And to bring it back to the human theme, the 'kill or be killed' mentality when it can completely be avoided is to give up your own humanity. Those walkers were not a threat until Shane let them out.
I don't see any of this as rationalizing the storyline at all. I see it all as entirely possible character motivation for Herschel to keep a lid on the whole thing.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Posts
- 60,434
Things unraveled well considering the arguments about Rick not taking command like a leader should. Rick left the door open for Shane to take over. If nothing happened there, if Shane didn't take control, the story would have been weaker. It was the right way for things to unwind.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2000
- Posts
- 19,380
Completely agree. It makes everything more unsettled now, to where the voices of reason will have a harder time getting through to the scared and frustrated supporting characters. It'll make for potentially great storytelling.
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2011
- Posts
- 10,580
until this board brought that up earlier i honestly never thought of that. thats probably the best way for them to have to leave the farm now that im thinking of it.
- Joined
- May 4, 2004
- Posts
- 13,782
The whole season was just a build up to Rick having a chance to show that he is the only one able to do what needs to be done. Regardless of him clinging to the last remnants of old humanity. As Taiso said Shane is a straight up punk. All geeked out but when shit gets really real he's impotent.
Sophie being in the barn the whole time is a cheap move and an excuse to keep them all at the farm the entire season but it was effective once revealed. Shit, better than them finding her and having her running to her mother arms or whatever. I think the whole thing about her being relatively non-mutilated is just keeping with the groups collective innocence. Not to say they haven't been through a lot but Sophie was kind of the hold out hand. It doesn't really matter. Rick shot her straight up, shit had to be done. Making them all suck it up and face the truth.
As for nothing happening this season.. got to disagree. I did expect more to go down but on a character development level things happened. Not as much as expected but still not a total waste of time. Key characters had their spot light but everyone else didn't to do shit. The black dude, Sophies mom etc. There are way too many characters who's names I don't even know. So kind of a throw up.
Either way as a TV show and spin off of the comic the show is interesting enough to make me tune in each week. That is really all that matters.
Sophie being in the barn the whole time is a cheap move and an excuse to keep them all at the farm the entire season but it was effective once revealed. Shit, better than them finding her and having her running to her mother arms or whatever. I think the whole thing about her being relatively non-mutilated is just keeping with the groups collective innocence. Not to say they haven't been through a lot but Sophie was kind of the hold out hand. It doesn't really matter. Rick shot her straight up, shit had to be done. Making them all suck it up and face the truth.
As for nothing happening this season.. got to disagree. I did expect more to go down but on a character development level things happened. Not as much as expected but still not a total waste of time. Key characters had their spot light but everyone else didn't to do shit. The black dude, Sophies mom etc. There are way too many characters who's names I don't even know. So kind of a throw up.
Either way as a TV show and spin off of the comic the show is interesting enough to make me tune in each week. That is really all that matters.
sp3ctr3
Mr. Big's Thug
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Posts
- 197
This is exactly what I felt.
I think it was a good choice that it was Rick that had to end Sophia. He put her in the situation that got her turned, so he had to step up to her face to face to get a smack in the face and realise what he had done.
Otis coming back would be stupid. We saw that a dusin zombies was over him. No way he would escape that.
Im excited to see what happens next? How will the group react to the way Shane blew up?
Herschel, will he let them stay after they killed/executed all those walkers/people?
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2000
- Posts
- 19,380
I agree. I feel that Rick was, at least partly, doing the deed himself as penance for the mistakes he's made. I personally think if anybody else would have had the balls to step up and try to off Sophia, Rick would have stopped them and done it himself.
100% agree. If Otis were to shamble onto the farm, I think I'd stop watching.
I can accept Sophia being bitten, running off and dying/turning somewhere alone. It was a pretty big gouge, but adrenalin can make people do amazing things. I don't think it's that hard to suspend one's disbelief for that scenario.
But Otis is nothing but bones now.
Frankly, I think Rick has the group back at the very end.
I don't think Shane took over anything. I think he had it, but he lost it the second he locked up with the rest of the group when he saw Sophia. He became just like the rest of them in that moment-a follower needing someone to take control.
I think Rick asserted himself, in one motion, to the whole group AND to the residents of Herschel's farm.
But that's going to eat at Shane. It's still effective storybuilding and Shane's action has created a lot of tension for the group to sort through for the next season.
I don't see how he kicks them out. I don't see how he can. Herschel was as lost and confused as everyone else in that moment. Only Rick could do what needed doing, and I think he knows it. I think Herschel got his wake up call and now he understands the world they live in. And I think Herschel will recognize that Rick's view is just a variation on his own mindset, but altered just the right amount for this new world.
Rick isn't immoral/amoral. He's actually a good deal like Herschel. But he is also just different enough that he's properly equipped to live in this world. A good person willing to do what is needed when it's truly necessary.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Posts
- 60,434
The group isn't staying on the farm. Why do people think Herschel won't tell them to leave? They have places to go and people to see.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2000
- Posts
- 19,380
Because it doesn't matter anymore. Why send them away now? Any hope of preserving the farm's sanctity is shot, and that's why he wanted them gone. That is symbolized through Maggie just as much as through the barn massacre.
Herschel got his wakeup call. He knows it can never be the way he wants it to be anymore. He realizes he can't make the world the way he wants it. If he did, he would have reacted more strongly during the event. Instead, he sat there in horror at everything.
And I don't see him as a reactionary sort to angrily kick them out after all that. I see him as begrudingly accepting the circumstances and continuing to strive for more hopeful resolutions. He may harbor resentment and be mistrustful of them, but he won't push them away just because they broke his rule.
The group will leave the farm eventually, but not right away and not because Herschel will be pushing them away.
My .02.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2000
- Posts
- 19,380
That's exactly what I was thinking.
I just think Herschel will come to reveal he can't protect or preserve anything anymore. Everyone and everything he loves is gone now, and can never be recovered. Even Maggie. He's lost her to the group too, just like he lost everything else. Everything his life had ever been to that point ended there, at that barn.
What's he supposed to do? Start over? Why? What's the point? The summation of his experiences and beliefs have been wiped out in a hail of gunfire and he's been shown just how fragile his philosophy is, and all the social threads it relies on to suspend it.
I think that what happens from here is:
Tension builds with the group, who remain distant from the farm people. It gradually becomes about Rick vs. Shane and factionalism. It comes to a head. There's another violent incident. The group moves on because there's just too much pain and stagnation associated with the farm at that point and wherever they're going to make their future, it won't be at a place that can now only be associated with misery.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2000
- Posts
- 11,654
I was waiting for Shane to shoot Hershel actually. I couldn't tell how far over the edge he went.
They have to leave the farm because it's boring. The farm setting was all about character building. Shooting stray walkers is not that interesting.
Hershel probably dies or sets fire to his house. Something along those lines.
They have to leave the farm because it's boring. The farm setting was all about character building. Shooting stray walkers is not that interesting.
Hershel probably dies or sets fire to his house. Something along those lines.