MAME vs HARDWARE

Missile

Another Striker
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Translation: I'm a psychopath. We got it. Metal Slug 2 has slowdown because of the technical incompetence of the people who programmed it--NOT because it was some artistic intention that came from meditating in the full lotus position at the top of a mountain. Every Neo Metal Slug is a technical disaster, really. 30hz update sacks of shit. I'm going to get around to fixing that at some point.

OK seriously. I for one would be happy if you fix the Slowdown in MS2 on MVS/AES. Keep the 30fps, Slug wouldn't look right at a smooth 60fps. The 30fps makes it more cartoon-like

Say what you want... but owning original hardware is better. I have a Blazing Star AES conversion that is perfect. If I had the real version it would look and play the same but I'd be 100% happier and 1000% more wealthy.
 

bulbousbeard

Iconic Romhacker Analinguist
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OK seriously. I for one would be happy if you fix the Slowdown in MS2 on MVS/AES. Keep the 30fps, Slug wouldn't look right at a smooth 60fps. The 30fps makes it more cartoon-like

Say what you want... but owning original hardware is better. I have a Blazing Star AES conversion that is perfect. If I had the real version it would look and play the same but I'd be 100% happier and 1000% more wealthy.

It'll look amazing at 144fps. People say shit like that but have no idea. Cuphead runs at 60fps and looks more like a cartoon than Metal Slug ever will.

And 2's slowdown was already fixed years ago by trap.

http://blog.system11.org/?p=1442

http://blog.system11.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/metal_slug_2_turbo.zip
 
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F4U57

General Morden's Aide
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You're better off just making those yourself. Those aren't even anything special to assemble, they're just MicroATX motherboards with a microATX power supply, RAM, CPU, a m.2 SSD hard drive and a JPAC slapped on. Just throw that shit in a cart from newegg.com.

Hmm, if that’s all, that’s certainly something to consider. Thanks.
 

thermaltreasure

Ninja Combat Warrior
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This thread seriously spiced up my day. Still rocking CMVS via CRT and MAME (which looks pretty fantastic these days) on a PC monitor. Best of both worlds with a high end joystick thrown into the mix.
 

adeneo

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"I'm a credulous weirdo who believes in ghosts, so I think that digital games made up of 1s and 0s are magically different when emulated even though I'm middle aged and don't even have reaction time fast enough to notice the difference if there's multiple frames of input lag."

I'm a credulous weirdo that thinks some hobbyist trying to reverse engineer a proprietary 68k chip, and then making a modern Intel CPU do the exact same thing, at the exact same speed, doesn't always turn of that well.
It's not about the lag or the game ROM being the same 1s and 0s, emulation will never be the same as real hardware, but some emulators are quite well made, to the point that they're better than original hardware in some cases.

I'm going to get around to fixing that at some point.

Good for you, but seeing as you're banned from pretty much every other forum on the internets, for being rude and condescending, where are you going to post all this great work you're doing? Maybe you could go upstairs and tell your mom about it?
 

bulbousbeard

Iconic Romhacker Analinguist
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I'm a credulous weirdo that thinks some hobbyist trying to reverse engineer a proprietary 68k chip, and then making a modern Intel CPU do the exact same thing, at the exact same speed, doesn't always turn of that well.
It's not about the lag or the game ROM being the same 1s and 0s, emulation will never be the same as real hardware, but some emulators are quite well made, to the point that they're better than original hardware in some cases.

"Some hobbyist." What a joke. Almost every MAME dev works as professional software engineers (many times even in the game industry). Most of the people who worked on the Neo Geo driver in MAME are smarter than anyone who ever worked at Motorola, Yahama, or SNK during the Neo Geo's heyday. And the 68k in the Neo Geo wasn't proprietary, you dumb cunt. It was an off the shelf part. And MAME isn't written for specific platforms. It runs on ARM CPUs, PowerPC CPUs, Intel CPUs, and dozens of other architectures. Stop blubbering nonsense when you have no idea what you're talking about.

Good for you, but seeing as you're banned from pretty much every other forum on the internets, for being rude and condescending, where are you going to post all this great work you're doing? Maybe you could go upstairs and tell your mom about it?

You think I do anything for some caps on a forum? I do what I do because I want to.
 

adeneo

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Most of the people who worked on the Neo Geo driver in MAME are smarter than anyone who ever worked at Motorola, Yahama, or SNK during the Neo Geo's heyday.

If you're one of them, I sincerely doubt it.
I'll just assume some really smart people, like Mensch and Peddle, worked at Motorola, and pretty much invented modern day computing, but sure, you and your game devs are smarter than those guys, what an ass.

And the 68k in the Neo Geo wasn't proprietary, you dumb cunt. It was an off the shelf part.

The IC probably, the instruction set not so much.

And MAME isn't written for specific platforms. It runs on ARM CPUs, PowerPC CPUs, Intel CPUs, and dozens of other architectures. Stop blubbering nonsense when you have no idea what you're talking about.

I know, and it's completely irrelevant, my point still stands, trying to make any of those CPU's act like an old 68k running proprietary code, is never going to be the same as the original.
How close to the original it really is, depends on a lot of things, but it's never going to be a 68k with a Z80, it's still going to be software running in an OS trying to do whateever it was the original IC did.

You think I do anything for some caps on a forum? I do what I do because I want to.

Clearly, if only that included getting professional help on how to act around other people, you'd be golden !
 
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bulbousbeard

Iconic Romhacker Analinguist
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It's a completely off the shelf 68k. Nothing custom about it.

EjzaoEZ.jpg


See that gigantic off the shelf 68000? With the gonzo Motorola logo printed on it?
 

Heinz

Parteizeit
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Bulbo I don't think you know even the slightest about what you're talking about. Clearly the 68k present is a custom chip BY motorola! are you fuckin stupid? :rolleyes: It's like you need glasses or something or maybe your eyes are full of cum from loving yourself too much? anyone's guess.
 

bulbousbeard

Iconic Romhacker Analinguist
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Bulbo I don't think you know even the slightest about what you're talking about. Clearly the 68k present is a custom chip BY motorola! are you fuckin stupid? :rolleyes: It's like you need glasses or something or maybe your eyes are full of cum from loving yourself too much? anyone's guess.

People have replaced broken CPUs in Neo boards with ones they bought off Digikey.

They cost $12 you retard.

https://www.digipart.com/part/MC68HC000FN

It's an off the shelf part.

How does it feel to have a prolapsed anus?
 

adeneo

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It's a completely off the shelf 68k. Nothing custom about it.

Sure, most of those components on that 1FZ board are off the shelf, even that CMOS 68k, so what?
Are you saying it doesn't have registers and runs opcode proprietary to SNK?

Emulating it still takes reverse engineering and making a whole lot of assumptions about what the original hardware and code does, and even if SNK released everything to the public, running it on a modern CPU as software emulation still wouldn't be the same.
 

bulbousbeard

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Sure, most of those components on that 1FZ board are off the shelf, even that CMOS 68k, so what?
Are you saying it doesn't have registers and runs opcode proprietary to SNK?

Emulating it still takes reverse engineering and making a whole lot of assumptions about what the original hardware and code does, and even if SNK released everything to the public, running it on a modern CPU as software emulation still wouldn't be the same.

That sure is a lot of words to say "I was wrong about the CPU being custom."

I don't know what the crap you're even talking about. The 68000 is over abundantly documented. Its behavior is well understood. There are no "custom registers" or "custom opcodes" for the Neo Geo CPU. It uses a bog standard 68000 that anyone who knows 68000 assembly could trivially write code against. The video hardware is custom, but that's also been copiously tested and documented. MAMEdev actually did extensive hardware tests on the Neo Geo to get the raster effect emulation down to 1:1 pixel accuracy. If you dumped frames from MAME and real hardware in Super Sidekicks, for example, you'd see that the raster effects on the field would be exactly the same on both.

The Neo Geo is one of the best emulated platforms out there. Emulation of it in MAME is virtually perfect. You can actually compare Last Resort in MAME and real hardware and see that the slowdown and flicker are the same in both. There are several tiers of emulation: there are platforms that are emulated so well that even experts really familiar with the hardware wouldn't be able to distinguish (SNES, Genesis, Neo Geo), platforms that are pretty well emulated but still have minor defects (Playstation 1), and stuff that's pretty obviously buggy and crappy (pretty much the N64 and beyond fall into this category).

No one here would be able to tell the difference between two 4 slot cabinets side by side, one with a real MVS in it and one with a GroovyMAME PC properly configured. As I said before, when it comes to the Neo Geo, the input and output devices (controls and monitor) make more of a difference than whether it's emulated or not at this point. Real Neo Geo hardware on an LCD is objectively worse than GroovyMAME on a good CRT.
 

adeneo

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That sure is a lot of words to say "I was wrong about the CPU being custom."

Well, proprietary, as in running proprietary code on proprietary hardware, and I wasn't even specifically talking about the 68k in an MVS board, but emulation in general, you're the one who brought an MVS board into this?

I'm a credulous weirdo that thinks some hobbyist trying to reverse engineer a proprietary 68k chip, and then making a modern Intel CPU do the exact same thing, at the exact same speed, doesn't always turn of that well.

Also ...

...and stuff that's pretty obviously buggy and crappy (pretty much the N64 and beyond fall into this category).

So now you're saying some emulation do suck? What about those 1s and 0s that weren't magically different, except to certain credulous weirdos?

"I'm a credulous weirdo who believes in ghosts, so I think that digital games made up of 1s and 0s are magically different when emulated...

You've been claiming from the start that emulation is just as good as the real thing, as those 1s and 0s can't possibly feel different on modern hardware through software emulation?
 
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bulbousbeard

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Well, proprietary, as in running proprietary code on proprietary hardware, and I wasn't even specifically talking about the 68k in an MVS board, but emulation in general, you're the one who brought an MVS board into this?



Also ...



So now you're saying some emulation do suck? What about those 1s and 0s that weren't magically different, except to certain credulous weirdos?



You've been claiming from the start that emulation is just as good as the real thing, as those 1s and 0s can't possibly feel different on modern hardware through software emulation?

Of course some emulation sucks. I wouldn't WIPE MY ASS with any Atari Jaguar or 3DO emulator I've used.

No one ever made the argument that emulation, on 2/22/2019, is objectively perfect for every piece of hardware ever made. Now, emulation of any digital device COULD be as good as the Neo Geo, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily is. When emulation is good and verified correct, though, and then you come to me in a drunken stupor and tell me that the hardware is magical and can't be emulated, that's when I blow you up.

I'm talking about Neo Geo emulation, because this is a Neo Geo forum and I'm talking about Neo Geo hardware VS MAME and not every piece of hardware ever made VS MAME. Savvy? I don't think you get it. I'm MORE picky about it than anyone here, and Neo Geo emulation is so good with a proper setup that even I don't have a problem with it. Don't mistake me, though. Every digital arcade game through the early 2000s COULD be perfectly emulated. It just isn't done yet. To put this in perspective, this is nothing new. As far back as 1998 I can recall small minded idiots telling me that CPS2 hardware would never be emulated because the hardware was magical and a PC could never do it. That's the problem with your reptile brained argument. It's a line of bullshit that perpetually recedes as knowledge grows, computers get faster, and emulation inevitably gets better and better.

An inordinate amount of time and effort have gone into emulating the Neo Geo well. What really helped Neo Geo emulation is the fact that it uses fairly common components, and unlike many arcade machines, it was a long-lived platform that had a lot of software written for it so there are more test cases, and it's easier to test the correctness of the emulation. The most difficult hardware to emulate is the one where there was just one game written for it and that's it. You have one test case. This is why emulation of Konami games generally sucks balls. Konami tweaked the video hardware in basically every fucking game. They're all slightly different.

This is also why console emulation, generally speaking, is higher quality than arcade emulation. There's just more software to test the correctness of the emulation.
 

adeneo

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No one ever made the argument that emulation, on 2/22/2019, is objectively perfect for every piece of hardware ever made.

Except that's exactly what you did, you even managed to behave like a complete ass doing so ...

I'm a credulous weirdo who believes in ghosts, so I think that digital games made up of 1s and 0s are magically different when emulated....


... that's when I blow you up.

If by "blow up" you mean being rude and wrong, sure thing buddy !

I don't think you get it. I'm MORE picky about it than anyone here ... I can recall small minded idiots telling me ...That's the problem with your reptile brained argument

I think I get it just fine, arguing with entitled pricks online is a complete waste of time, but I knew that already!
 
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