What is so hard to understand?
- Thread starter EX_Andy
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ImMature
Guest
Suuure. OTOH your method of argument (ie. "I'm right, you're wrong") is flawless of course <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Oh and I'm pretty sure that you'd have trouble trying to download "any Nintendo game you wanted"...Just go and try d00d, even though this is irrelevant to this discussion
I'm *still* waiting for any kind of proof, oh you sooo0ooo important home users SNK never gave a fuck about...
C
Caris Nautilus
Guest
Shouldn't you guys be helping the elders of your Villiage pray for rain?
I
ImMature
Guest
Shouldn't you switch off the family dildo and give it back to your mom?
I
ImMature
Guest
?? Lay off the crack for a while d00d
And I'm *still* waiting for any of you lamers and poseurs to prove me wrong
C
Caris Nautilus
Guest
hehe, you called him a scrub, I don't think they know that slang term in cambodia yet though, it may be wasted.
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ImMature
Guest
Oh yes we do. A scrub: 1. a guy who cannot play videogames for shit 2. a NGer (see also 'lamer', 'collector' and 'poseur')
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: ImMature ]
C
Caris Nautilus
Guest
Immature your the new neo.com bitch, it was a close race between you and your cousin tempestutter, but you won out, congrates, they'll be throwing you a party back at ON.com, butt darts for everyone!
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Drift King EX ]
I think it is a very relevant argument. Putting roms on the internet is like putting oil in water; once its there, its there. There is not much you can fo about it.
You ask us for proof, right, but you still have not proved anything yourself. Youre just a little scrub with a big mouth and nothing to back up on. Sorry if I have to repeat myself, parasite.
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You've got one side saying one thing and you've got another side saying another thing. Both seem to have some valid points. Did you ever stop and think the Death of SNK could be BOTH from lack of Marketing/support of an old ass system and Roms? Give it some thought.
That's basically what I've been saying all along. SNK made a bunch of bad business decisions. One thing we haven't talked about yet is how SNK basically bore the burden of being publisher all on its own. Now that the company is dissolved, we're starting to see more involvement from more players, like Eolith and Mega, and this is a good thing. Eolith apparently already has an established means of creating "PC versions" of Neo games, but they actually seem legit.
If people can buy more affordable versions of Neo games, even in PC format, maybe the good guys will actually get some money in exchange for all the great work they've done on their games. Which is what I've been saying all along.
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ImMature
Guest
"Who knows?"? Just use your common sense d00d(*if* possible, that's it). Do you really believe that SNK survived all these years thanks to the home users or something along that line? Wake up and smell the coffee, it was the arcade market SNK cared the most about. And piracy/emulation only affected the tiny home market SNK used to have (if anything). So what's your point?
Oh and my argument may be invalid...but I'm still waiting to hear *yours*
Say, I came over to this thread trying to be a nice guy for a change and hide my absolute disregard towards you delusional lamers and what's what I get? Retarded flames as expected. C'mon d00dZ, I already know that you're no rocket scientists but can't you at least put up some *real* argument for a change?
If it doesn't make a difference, that would mean that no one buys games, and there would be no game industry. Though much of the game industry is in a slump right now (because the US is experiencing what's politely referred to as an "economic downturn," especially in the computers/technology sector, and the rest of the world ain't doing so good either), it's still a big-money market. Two major video game consoles just came out, and a third, existing one, is kicking serious behind as well.
Piracy is rampant, but not everyone pirates. People do buy new games, all the time. Check this site:
http://www.npd.com/
These guys regularly report sales figures for PC and video games. Games are being bought, by real people, otherwise retailers like EBWorld would be out of business by now. No, most hardcore ROM pirates probably won't buy an affordable, official PC/console port of Slug 4, but mainstream buyers--people who buy all sorts of games--might give it a second look if it was on the shelf of their local CompUSA or Fry's and didn't have a $270 price tag on it.
Let's think about this worthless home market...
A typical cart run from 1994 to 1998 (kof, ss, LB):
5000 home carts (US and Jap),
$200 a cart wholesale
---------------------
1,000,000 (at least)
Take into account that SNK also sold retail, which means that the gross was probably higher.
I know you're saying, 5000 carts?! who's going to buy 5000 carts, but if you see how big SNK still was in Japan, Korea, and other parts of Asia, and how Asian people don't often come to US sites and make their presence known (because they don't like to type in English) then you'd agree, 5000 seems about right, especially for the big name carts I pointed to (kof, ss, lb).
And so each year from 1994 to 1998 they'd be pulling in around $2,000,000, off of TWO titles alone! And then you look at the smaller titles that they also sold in tandem with the big names, such as Metal Slug 1 & 2, breakers, kizuna, ninja masters, pulstar, blazing star, fatal fury 3, RBFF 1, Special, and 2, and Super Sidekicks 2,3,4 - you get the idea (MSX, STSS, MS3, S1945+, & MotW were all made after 1998, so I don't count them, but you know they made money). Home carts were a pretty lucrative side market.
Even if you cut my production figures by 60% (you can't successfully argue that SNK made less than 2000 KoF carts in any given year) - even if cut by 60% SNK is still making over a million a year gross - not an insubstantial figure.
But really, MVS games amde the money, and with emulation, poor ass gamers like ImMature could stop picking through their parents pockets for quarters and stay home, playing "arcade perfect" games on the layaway discount PII they picked up at RadioShack.
And of course Neo Geo games were the first to get the royal treatment, with the new games dumped and made public only days after their release (Metal Slug X), and so why would an arcade op invest in that game? Kids are staying home to play it, just as they stayed home to play KoF 98.
It wasn't SNKs fault that people could break their encryption, or protection scemes and spread the roms on the net. People are actually just really smart sometimes.
So SNK had to rely on the countries that aren't so computer heavy, like in South America with Brazil (yes, they have a lot of computers, but the population is not as computer crazy and sloth-like as in the US), and eventually the MVS was just not supportable. This of course began in 1998 with the release of KoF 98 roms, only a few months after the MVS release (how generous... then again, it was released almost immediatedly after they dumped it).
So yeah, emulation has hurt the MVS market. It hasn't hurt all the companies. It didn't hurt Nintendo because most people couldn't play the roms on their computer with substandard graphics cards, and the fact that N64 emus all sucked. It didn't hurt Sega, or Sony, and it didn't hurt Capcom, but then again, I think the dumpers were way too kind to Capcom. All the CPS games coming out 2 1/2 years after Street Fighter Alpha 3. Arcade ops easily made a return without worrying about Capcom games eing emulated.
It did hurt SNK.
A typical cart run from 1994 to 1998 (kof, ss, LB):
5000 home carts (US and Jap),
$200 a cart wholesale
---------------------
1,000,000 (at least)
Take into account that SNK also sold retail, which means that the gross was probably higher.
I know you're saying, 5000 carts?! who's going to buy 5000 carts, but if you see how big SNK still was in Japan, Korea, and other parts of Asia, and how Asian people don't often come to US sites and make their presence known (because they don't like to type in English) then you'd agree, 5000 seems about right, especially for the big name carts I pointed to (kof, ss, lb).
And so each year from 1994 to 1998 they'd be pulling in around $2,000,000, off of TWO titles alone! And then you look at the smaller titles that they also sold in tandem with the big names, such as Metal Slug 1 & 2, breakers, kizuna, ninja masters, pulstar, blazing star, fatal fury 3, RBFF 1, Special, and 2, and Super Sidekicks 2,3,4 - you get the idea (MSX, STSS, MS3, S1945+, & MotW were all made after 1998, so I don't count them, but you know they made money). Home carts were a pretty lucrative side market.
Even if you cut my production figures by 60% (you can't successfully argue that SNK made less than 2000 KoF carts in any given year) - even if cut by 60% SNK is still making over a million a year gross - not an insubstantial figure.
But really, MVS games amde the money, and with emulation, poor ass gamers like ImMature could stop picking through their parents pockets for quarters and stay home, playing "arcade perfect" games on the layaway discount PII they picked up at RadioShack.
And of course Neo Geo games were the first to get the royal treatment, with the new games dumped and made public only days after their release (Metal Slug X), and so why would an arcade op invest in that game? Kids are staying home to play it, just as they stayed home to play KoF 98.
It wasn't SNKs fault that people could break their encryption, or protection scemes and spread the roms on the net. People are actually just really smart sometimes.
So SNK had to rely on the countries that aren't so computer heavy, like in South America with Brazil (yes, they have a lot of computers, but the population is not as computer crazy and sloth-like as in the US), and eventually the MVS was just not supportable. This of course began in 1998 with the release of KoF 98 roms, only a few months after the MVS release (how generous... then again, it was released almost immediatedly after they dumped it).
So yeah, emulation has hurt the MVS market. It hasn't hurt all the companies. It didn't hurt Nintendo because most people couldn't play the roms on their computer with substandard graphics cards, and the fact that N64 emus all sucked. It didn't hurt Sega, or Sony, and it didn't hurt Capcom, but then again, I think the dumpers were way too kind to Capcom. All the CPS games coming out 2 1/2 years after Street Fighter Alpha 3. Arcade ops easily made a return without worrying about Capcom games eing emulated.
It did hurt SNK.
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not going to say much.
just that yes. SNK wasnt totally based around
just the home market. but also that
about this time when home systems have
caught up with the NEOGEO finally
SNK doesnt have too much of a choice since
the games have been emulated anyways.
like rade said. once it hits the internet
its already spread.
yes emulation hurt SNK.
i personally hope SNK takes measures to
prevent emulation still but i doubt it will
stop the pirates.
just that yes. SNK wasnt totally based around
just the home market. but also that
about this time when home systems have
caught up with the NEOGEO finally
SNK doesnt have too much of a choice since
the games have been emulated anyways.
like rade said. once it hits the internet
its already spread.
yes emulation hurt SNK.
i personally hope SNK takes measures to
prevent emulation still but i doubt it will
stop the pirates.
ThePunisher
SouthTown StreetSweeper
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So do I <IMG SRC="smilies/glee.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/glee.gif" border="0">
RyoGeo
Global Moderator, Voice of Reason, Member #13
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EW, that was a very well written take on the manner in which emulation hurt SNK. To argue that it didn't, in the face almost immediate dumps, is both ludicrous and displays a remarkable lack of thought process. When games are dumped within days of hitting market, is there anyone reading this that can say that such an act would not have appreciable effect on the ability for an arcade operator to make money on the title? Absolutely NOT.
In fact, since someone went so far as to call the home market insignificant, let me ask this. Why is it that SNK INTENTIONALLY delayed the release of ANY home cart by (I believe) six months from any MVS release? The answer is that the "insignificant" home buyer had a DIRECT impact on MVS performance. When home carts were available, arcade performance went down, period. And we are supposed to believe that the dumping of code to MILLIONS will not have an appreciable effect on MVS performance? Please. Take a rational look at that model.
All of this lead to SNK's attempt to protect (encrypt) their games, which had worked up until a couple months ago. It delayed the dumping of their code months and, in some cases, years allowing them to limp along until they were ultimately hunted down and consumed.
Now that this encryption routine is broken, MVS is now a marginally viable platform at best. And why is that? Certainly not due to the install base. Aside from your generic JAMMA cabinet, I would imagine that Neo cabinets are the most present in the world. Whatever could make the single most widely distributed and popular arcade platform in the world a bad bet? Hmm, let me think. This ain't hard to figure out folks.
And, ImMature, you have asked for proof. Well, none of what I said can be contested in an appreciable way. You mentioned that MVS was SNK's bread and butter. You are correct. And that platform has been rendered practically useless by ROM dumpers and is no longer viable. You say it's their fault for sticking to the same format. I say, why should a company that is still able to produce WONDERFUL content on existing technology not continue to develop for it.
And again, on the one hand you chastize SNK for sticking to the MVS and on the other berate them for trying to introduce the H64 to the market. Make up your mind. Are they resting on the laurels with the MVS or are they trying to innovate (albeit, with not enough power under the hood) with the H64? The H64 was simply a matter of not building enough power into their spec. Nothing more, nothing less. They made a mistake and paid HEAVILLY for it. So much so that they almost didn't make it. Thank God the MVS still allowed for cash flow. Oh, but wait. Now we're back to why ROM dumping hurt SNK, aren't we. Here's the short version.
As time went by, SNK tried to innovate and keep up with the times/technology. The attempt to do so failed and almost cost SNK its life. The platform that kept blood flowing in the SNK body was MVS. They sought to encrypt their releases to protect their content, but it was too little too late. The encryption did not come soon enough and MVS titles were given such a short life span that they became less desirable to arcade operators. They still sold a lot, but not like they used to. Now, with their protection broken and no real ability to develop new ecryption (meaning a new board and chipset) and reeling finacially from another attempt to diversify (NGPC), SNK dies and MVS will now, more than likely die with it.
I would imagine that there may be a few titles after 2k1, but not many, and they'll get dumped quickly enough that they won't be all that lucrative in the arcades anyway.
If anyone can poke a hole in that, pease do, but you'd better have thought it through REAL well, because there are not many logical holes in which you may manuever.
When KoF 2k1 gets dumped in probably 30 days time (or less) from it's major release, would any ROM defender have so little brain as to say that won't hurt the performance of that title? And have no misconceptions. They don't sell out of a title right away. A LOT of operatros wait for the prices to drop a bit before they buy. Oh but wait. It's been dumped by then. Why, as an operator, would I buy it when my customers can now play for free at home?
Bad investments in new technology and piracy killed SNK. End of story.
Screw this. I'm gonna go eat some fuckin' pie.
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: RyoGeo ]
In fact, since someone went so far as to call the home market insignificant, let me ask this. Why is it that SNK INTENTIONALLY delayed the release of ANY home cart by (I believe) six months from any MVS release? The answer is that the "insignificant" home buyer had a DIRECT impact on MVS performance. When home carts were available, arcade performance went down, period. And we are supposed to believe that the dumping of code to MILLIONS will not have an appreciable effect on MVS performance? Please. Take a rational look at that model.
All of this lead to SNK's attempt to protect (encrypt) their games, which had worked up until a couple months ago. It delayed the dumping of their code months and, in some cases, years allowing them to limp along until they were ultimately hunted down and consumed.
Now that this encryption routine is broken, MVS is now a marginally viable platform at best. And why is that? Certainly not due to the install base. Aside from your generic JAMMA cabinet, I would imagine that Neo cabinets are the most present in the world. Whatever could make the single most widely distributed and popular arcade platform in the world a bad bet? Hmm, let me think. This ain't hard to figure out folks.
And, ImMature, you have asked for proof. Well, none of what I said can be contested in an appreciable way. You mentioned that MVS was SNK's bread and butter. You are correct. And that platform has been rendered practically useless by ROM dumpers and is no longer viable. You say it's their fault for sticking to the same format. I say, why should a company that is still able to produce WONDERFUL content on existing technology not continue to develop for it.
And again, on the one hand you chastize SNK for sticking to the MVS and on the other berate them for trying to introduce the H64 to the market. Make up your mind. Are they resting on the laurels with the MVS or are they trying to innovate (albeit, with not enough power under the hood) with the H64? The H64 was simply a matter of not building enough power into their spec. Nothing more, nothing less. They made a mistake and paid HEAVILLY for it. So much so that they almost didn't make it. Thank God the MVS still allowed for cash flow. Oh, but wait. Now we're back to why ROM dumping hurt SNK, aren't we. Here's the short version.
As time went by, SNK tried to innovate and keep up with the times/technology. The attempt to do so failed and almost cost SNK its life. The platform that kept blood flowing in the SNK body was MVS. They sought to encrypt their releases to protect their content, but it was too little too late. The encryption did not come soon enough and MVS titles were given such a short life span that they became less desirable to arcade operators. They still sold a lot, but not like they used to. Now, with their protection broken and no real ability to develop new ecryption (meaning a new board and chipset) and reeling finacially from another attempt to diversify (NGPC), SNK dies and MVS will now, more than likely die with it.
I would imagine that there may be a few titles after 2k1, but not many, and they'll get dumped quickly enough that they won't be all that lucrative in the arcades anyway.
If anyone can poke a hole in that, pease do, but you'd better have thought it through REAL well, because there are not many logical holes in which you may manuever.
When KoF 2k1 gets dumped in probably 30 days time (or less) from it's major release, would any ROM defender have so little brain as to say that won't hurt the performance of that title? And have no misconceptions. They don't sell out of a title right away. A LOT of operatros wait for the prices to drop a bit before they buy. Oh but wait. It's been dumped by then. Why, as an operator, would I buy it when my customers can now play for free at home?
Bad investments in new technology and piracy killed SNK. End of story.
Screw this. I'm gonna go eat some fuckin' pie.
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: RyoGeo ]
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I'm not gonna get into any pointless flaming of anyone on either side of this argument, but I do have one question:
If perfect PC ports of newer Neo Geo stuff were easily available and at a good price, how many of you emu players reading this would actually buy them? Would you buy legit copies to support the games/companies you like, or would you download pirate copies of these too (be honest!)? You can't use the excuse that they are too expensive, and you can't say that pirating these games hurts no-one with this type of thing... so whats your answer?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame anyone, just wondering is all <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> Before anyone asks though: yes I do use emus, but yes I also own an MVS and NGPC... and I'd definitely buy PC or console ports of games if they were easily available here in the UK.
If perfect PC ports of newer Neo Geo stuff were easily available and at a good price, how many of you emu players reading this would actually buy them? Would you buy legit copies to support the games/companies you like, or would you download pirate copies of these too (be honest!)? You can't use the excuse that they are too expensive, and you can't say that pirating these games hurts no-one with this type of thing... so whats your answer?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame anyone, just wondering is all <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> Before anyone asks though: yes I do use emus, but yes I also own an MVS and NGPC... and I'd definitely buy PC or console ports of games if they were easily available here in the UK.
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RyoGeo:
I'd add that bad marketing strategies and insignificant home console development during a gradual shrinkage in the arcade industry were also factors in SNK's demise. I'd even say that these factors are a greater component of their failure than piracy.
Capcom games are emulated too, but that company's still around. Why? Because they knew how to develop for the home console market and knew how to sell what they developed. It would be nice to live in a world without EMU, but we do and Capcom realized it. Unlike SNK, they didn't put all their eggs in one basket.
So, RyoGeo, I think your points are valid enough, but the above two factors can't be discounted.
Kazuya:
I own all the FF, RB, AOF, KOF games and Garou and SS1 and 2 on home cart. I have purchased ports of:
RBS (PSX)
KOF 98 (DC)
KOF 99 (DC)
KOF 99 (PSX)
KOF 98 (PSX)
KOF 97 (PSX)
KOF 96 (PSX)
KOF 95 (PSX)
Garou (DC)
Samsho 1 and 2 fencing pack (PSX)
Samsho 3 and 4 collection (SATURN)
Samsho 3 (PSX)
Samsho 4 (PSX)
Metal Slug X (PSX)
Last Blade (PSX)
Last Blade 2 (DC, IMPORT VERSION!!!)
Yeah, I'd buy ports if they're for games I like, even if I already have the carts or not.
But then again, the question wasn't posed to me because I'm not a hardcore EMU guy.
I just felt like answering it <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">!
I guess the point is that I'll spend money on games I already have to get different versions.
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Taiso ]
I'd add that bad marketing strategies and insignificant home console development during a gradual shrinkage in the arcade industry were also factors in SNK's demise. I'd even say that these factors are a greater component of their failure than piracy.
Capcom games are emulated too, but that company's still around. Why? Because they knew how to develop for the home console market and knew how to sell what they developed. It would be nice to live in a world without EMU, but we do and Capcom realized it. Unlike SNK, they didn't put all their eggs in one basket.
So, RyoGeo, I think your points are valid enough, but the above two factors can't be discounted.
Kazuya:
I own all the FF, RB, AOF, KOF games and Garou and SS1 and 2 on home cart. I have purchased ports of:
RBS (PSX)
KOF 98 (DC)
KOF 99 (DC)
KOF 99 (PSX)
KOF 98 (PSX)
KOF 97 (PSX)
KOF 96 (PSX)
KOF 95 (PSX)
Garou (DC)
Samsho 1 and 2 fencing pack (PSX)
Samsho 3 and 4 collection (SATURN)
Samsho 3 (PSX)
Samsho 4 (PSX)
Metal Slug X (PSX)
Last Blade (PSX)
Last Blade 2 (DC, IMPORT VERSION!!!)
Yeah, I'd buy ports if they're for games I like, even if I already have the carts or not.
But then again, the question wasn't posed to me because I'm not a hardcore EMU guy.
I just felt like answering it <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">!
I guess the point is that I'll spend money on games I already have to get different versions.
[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Taiso ]
