SHMUPS.... WTF...

[TurboRotary13b]

Thanks guys.. There is some really helpful information here. I am playing on a 65 inch Plasma BTW.. So I can see everything fine. I find that my biggest problem is misjudging the speed of my own ship. I hit the d pad and expect to stop at one point and depending on the game I go too far or not far enough. I'm sure this just comes down to practice. Also I tend to lose my ship when there is a lot going on in the background or if there is a lot of fire on the screen. I find the PCE D-Pad restrictive.. Playing SHMUPS on the AES with the stick feels more natural to me. I'm trying to find one of those Hori Multi Fighting sticks so maybe that will help too. Or maybe build my own? I tried a new game last night that I got the the third stage on the first try.. Dead Moon.

 

[wataru330]

I've not played on a plasma...could the not stoping/being where you expect to, be due to lag?

 

[Chempop]

I've not played on a plasma...could the not stoping/being where you expect to, be due to lag?

I was thinking the same thing... CRT or GTFO

Also, screen size is important, but what also matters is how close you are sitting to it. These games are designed to be sitting directly in front of a 25-27" monitor that is tilted backwards a bit. Giant screens are going to be a disadvantage because your field of vision is not going to be able to really process everything at once. Many of the best players use small screens because they can see everything at once without adjusting their eyes much at all. The larger the screen, the looser the controls are going to feel, that's a fact.

As for how to play, well there have been a few good suggestions and I'll reiterate the important ones and add a few:

Lots of practice with the SAME GAME is key, but also playing a wide variety of games will help you improve faster as well. It's a catch22 but it's absolutely true. Different games teach different skills, once you gather enough skills, apply them all to a game you like AND STICK WITH IT until you see drastic progress.

Learn and apply the different techniques such:

Micro dodging - weaving with small dodges in between patterns, focus on the empty spaces between the bullets... if you look at the bullets, you'll fly into them lol!
Macro dodging - swooping around an entire pattern all together
Tap dodging aka streaming - tiny taps in the same direction to have bullets miss you by only a small distance
"U-dodging" and bullet herding - how to position yourself to control where enemies will fire
Panic Bombing - if a game has bombs, learn to use them right before you get hit. many players don't know how to do this and die again and again with bombs in stock.
Quick-shot - many enemies can be killed faster the closer you are to them due to rate of fire. learn how to be aggressive when the game allows it.

Those are some of the important skills, feel free to ask questions.

 

[RabbitTroop]

A trick I always do to get better at shooters is try the no shooting trick. Start playing and do nothing but dodge. You're not going to get very far, but as other have said it lets you learn what you can and can't get away with in the game. Some games I actually like to play like this as a challenge. No shooting until the boss. It really upped my Strikers scores when I went back to playing normal.

 

[SNKNostalgia]

I am good at Hudson Soft Shooters for the Duo now, thanks to playing a lot of Super Star Soldier for the most part. Air Zonk is still the hardest of them to me. These are my favorite shooters.

The games that tend to really hand me my ass are the Gradius/Salamander/Paradous games. All, except for Gradius 3 for SNES due to the slow down, lol. I can't for the life of me beat Gradius 2 for PC-Engine SCD on normal or higher... and really want to. Stupid crab midboss!!! I also suck at Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Gradius V, and other treasure shooters.

I am pretty good at MUSHA, Robo Aleste, Thunder Force 3 and 4, and most other Technosoft shooters beside Thunder Force 2 (overhead stages I guess). I fucking own on Lords of Thunder and Gate of Thunder due to playing them every 2 weeks at least.

I don't even play the typical bullet hell Dreamcast up to Xbox 360 games. Something about the bright neon bullets and pre-rendered graphics of most of them puts me off.

 

[malignantpoodle]

I was thinking the same thing... CRT or GTFO

Giant screens are going to be a disadvantage because your field of vision is not going to be able to really process everything at once. Many of the best players use small screens because they can see everything at once without adjusting their eyes much at all. The larger the screen, the looser the controls are going to feel, that's a fact.

I have to disagree with this. Most players aren't looking at the entire screen when the action is hot.
For me, I'm generally looking at the whole screen when nothing is happening, then as the rounds start coming in, I'm focusing more and more on my own ship, until the screen is completely filled with incoming fire in which case I'm staring at my hitbox.

Playing on a projector with a 12' diameter I can see fire in games the size of a quarter that are only a couple of pixels in size on a normal sized CRT. Playing on a tiny screen makes me feel like I'm doing surgery on a tadpole, whereas a large screen feels like surgery on an elephant.

Not trying to say you 're wrong or anything, just pointing out that playing on tiny screens doesn't work for me, especially since I'm almost never trying to look at and absorb the entire playfield.

 

[SNKNostalgia]

Hmmm, my 27" Sony Trinitron gets the job done sitting 4-5 feet away. I have no problems seeing anything at all. All my consoles use S-Video and Component Video except for my NES (even it looks pretty great due to the digital comb filtering of the TV). I am sure that a better quality set helps. Love the newer S-Video mod on my Duo for this BTW. Looks ridiculously sharp and colorful. I can see a 15-20" monitor being a little troublesome unless you sit like 2-3 feet away, lol.

 

[Chempop]

You guys are correct, most players stare at their ship or hitbox when the action is hot, and then die because they weren't planning how to deal with the next pattern. Most people haven't made the hurdles required to really kick ass at these games.

I can see a 15-20" monitor being a little troublesome unless you sit like 2-3 feet away, lol.

You'd be surprised, like I said earlier, many of the best players prefer a smaller monitor, as long as they are sitting basically directly in front of it as if playing on a cab or using computer. I prefer 24-27", but I suggest you plop a 20-27" TV right in front of you, once you adjust to the change you might really dig it

 

[malignantpoodle]

You guys are correct, most players stare at their ship or hitbox when the action is hot, and then die because they weren't planning how to deal with the next pattern. Most people haven't made the hurdles required to really kick ass at these games.

So I take this as a stab that I suck because I contradicted your advice?

Ok, I'll play along... and wonder how I could ever 1cc Pink Sweets or be #2 on Fast Striker MVS since I'm so terrible. Geez. If only I used a 13" screen and listened to you I'd be the best there is huh?
I'm no super human player (I doubt you are either), but I'm confident in saying I'm better than most. I know what works for me.

"Some of the best players" use comparatively large screens. Japanese super human champs are typically on 27-29" arcade monitors with their face stuck right to it.

 

[Chempop]

Which version of Pink Sweets, and did you trigger infinite lives? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to take a stab or anything.

Anyway, earlier in this thread I spoke to using what you are comfortable with as means to do the best (stick vs pad). I'm not saying there is a right or wrong, just trying to spread some knowledge, that's all. The whole "stare at your hitbox" method is beyond me though, you should know where your ship is without looking directly at it.

Here's how it works for me:

enemies enter - I either decide to kill them immediately or maneuver to safety and then kill them
they start shooting - my brain calculate trajectories and I recognize the safe spots
I move into the safe spots - I don't need to worry about my hitbox, because I know I'm safe

 

[Mendel]

Learn to concentrate on the fire more than looking at your ship - let the control of your craft become more of a peripheral thing, if you can.

For me looking at my ship or the area in the near vicinity of my ship seems to work a lot better than looking at where my bullets end up.

If I look where Im firing, I tend to get killed. But if I concentrate on where my ship is relative to nearby bullets, I tend to survive. I just keep mashing the fire button and not caring where all my bullets go because often enough they end up hitting enemies anyways.

 

[malignantpoodle]

Which version of Pink Sweets, and did you trigger infinite lives? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to take a stab or anything.

I played the 360 arcade version, did not trigger infinite lives.

The whole "stare at your hitbox" method is beyond me though, you should know where your ship is without looking directly at it.

It depends upon the game. Some games fill the screen with so much incoming fire that you have to be in an exact perfect position to avoid taking a hit, which I can't see doing by just knowing your general location on the screen.

Of course, then there are the games where the bullets come in set patterns regardless of your position (Perfect Cherry Blossom comes to mind). In those, regardless of where you are, the bullet positions and paths are always the same. I can see in these games never looking at your ship; as the patterns are always the same, it's more of a pattern of movement rather than making a decision about ship position on the fly.

When I stare at the hitbox it's usually for a second or two in order to deal with a particularly nasty barrage. To be clear, I'm not referring to watching it the whole time. In my opinion, one must be looking at different areas, at different times, depending upon the situation.

If you play Bullet Soul for example, you'll notice that different colored rounds have different patterns. So as an example, when fighting in the third round on the 4th boss, I know that my general location will miss the pink bullets coming in, but are in danger from the dark blue ones. When they all come at once, I may stare at the hit box for a second or two, but in doing so I can still see the next volley incoming at the edge of my vision. This tells me where I need to be and once the current hazard is dealt with, I can look elsewhere while moving out of the way. Kind of hard to explain, I should post a video.

 

[Chempop]

I played the 360 arcade version, did not trigger infinite lives.

Well congrats, that's something I don't think anyone on the entire shmups forum has accomplished (if you are talking about v1.00).

I appreciate you explanation, I don't play Touhou or Bullet Soul, but I get what you mean.

In my opinion, one must be looking at different areas, at different times, depending upon the situation.

I agree. Most of the time however, I'm looking at everything, for the really fast dodges I'm looking in front of my ship because it gives me the time to decide if I need to move right or left to get to a safespot.

 

[malignantpoodle]

Well congrats, that's something I don't think anyone on the entire shmups forum has accomplished (if you are talking about v1.00).

To be honest, I could probably never do it again. It was a total fluke and LOTS of luck throughout. It seems that there is no shortage of demos online of people doing it though. For some reason I do not think it was 1.00, I'd have to go back and look.

If you haven't played Bullet Soul it's really worth checking out. 360 region free non Cave game.

 

[malignantpoodle]

By request from Chempop;

Pink Sweets 1cc (arcade)
230,621,480

The version is 1.01
I don't know what difference is makes from 1.00 because I've never played 1.00
There might be a huge difference, I don't know.

Chempop said in chat that I imagined it and made other remarks that he doubted that I 1cc'd Pink Sweets and that I made it up. He asked for me to post my score in this thread, so I'm giving it here. It was all quite hostile. He said here that he was genuinely interested but then berated me in chat when I couldn't provide instant results as I was dealing with two other folks that were asking for links to something at the time.
I do not have a demo so I have no other way to prove it. If we have some kind of standard here where I have to show a demo running of me 1cc'ing the game in order to make the statement, then I must retract the statement and just say I've never done it.

With Fast Striker I do have proof.

One can go to faststriker.com and see under rankings.
That's me in second place.

 

[Chempop]

First of all, no one gives a shit about Fast Striker, especially original mode.
Second, your claims are seriously messed up, here was the conversation:

[Chempop] 12:16 pm: yo shroom, DK, poodle
[Chempop] 12:17 pm: Poodle, you sure it wasn't PinkSweets arrange mode
[malignantpoodle] 12:17 pm: yes
[malignantpoodle] 12:17 pm: I've done arrange that's ez
[Chempop] 12:18 pm: you got a score for that 1CC? also interested to know which character you used

As you can see, I'm being very hostile. Here are some added bonus quotes that were unrelated to our brief conversation:

[malignantpoodle] 12:20 pm: can't say that I do because I don't know him, doesn't change the fact that you're backing down like a fucking pussy now
[malignantpoodle] 12:21 pm: stupid fuck
[malignantpoodle] 12:22 pm: As a matter of fact, my post was more honest than anything you've put on the forums
[malignantpoodle] 12:23 pm: Brag? Never bragged, shared experiences. Still, if I bragged, how is that lying?
[malignantpoodle] 12:24 pm: calling someone a hipster because they think owning a piano for decoration is cool. Yes, that is my opinion
[malignantpoodle] 12:25 pm: Believe me, validation from you is something not at all important

Somewhere in the middle of that I realize that I'm in the middle of a shitstorm:

[Chempop] 12:22 pm: okay okay, I'll go for a walk, it's gorgeous outside

After taking a leak and getting my walking shoes on:

Chempop] 12:25 pm: poddle, you find that high score yet?
[DangerousK] 12:25 pm: He's busy looking for imaginary posts Chem
[Chempop] 12:26 pm: well get busy looking for imaginary scores instead

Just to clarify, I did doubt your Pink Sweets 1CC, you have provided zero information about it other than "To be honest, I could probably never do it again. It was a total fluke and LOTS of luck throughout. ". That sounds fishy to me, you honestly don't know the name of which character you used, don't know the differences between 1.00 and 1.01 (huge difference btw), and now are accusing me of outright bullshit. I don't appreciate it, we should be shmup bros, but if you'd rather be a cock smoker I guess it can't be helped.

 

[Chempop]

I forgot one thing:

Pink Sweets 1cc (arcade)
230,621,480

The version is 1.01

Is that your score?

 

[malignantpoodle]

Notice, you left out all the parts where you were talking about how I made it up, how I imagined it, etc. Then you added in parts where I was talking to someone else. Very deceptive what you're trying to do here.

edit;

[malignantpoodle] 12:20 pm: can't say that I do because I don't know him, doesn't change the fact that you're backing down like a fucking pussy now
[malignantpoodle] 12:21 pm: stupid fuck
[malignantpoodle] 12:22 pm: As a matter of fact, my post was more honest than anything you've put on the forums
[malignantpoodle] 12:23 pm: Brag? Never bragged, shared experiences. Still, if I bragged, how is that lying?
[malignantpoodle] 12:24 pm: calling someone a hipster because they think owning a piano for decoration is cool. Yes, that is my opinion
[malignantpoodle] 12:25 pm: Believe me, validation from you is something not at all important

None of that was ever directed at you. You were perfectly happy to jump in with some folks saying I was to be shivved in a back alley and all this kind of garbage. Now you're posting it here... for what?

end edit.
----------

I should have known all along you weren't really interested. You were just butthurt because I disagreed with you about small screens all along.

I have stated already that I don't have proof. What you asked of me that I could provide, I did. That which I couldn't provide, I told you I couldn't. That's just me being honest.

I do not know the names of the characters. But don't you think if I was trying to BS you I could just google it and tell you that way? Why would I tell you I played the furthest on the right when I could really bullshit you and google the name? I really don't see what the big deal is anyway, lots of people have done it. I guess I just don't see what kind of advantage it gives me to make up doing something that lots of people have done already.

By default, the game is on 1.01
I never changed it, never played 1.00

But I understand if the proof isn't good enough for the claim. I can't prove it, I said that to you. Where you and I ran afoul is you being hostile with me over it. Now you want to shit on Fast Striker and say nobody cares, etc. I bet there are a lot of games you're proud about that most people don't give two fucks over, but I'm not going to hold your feet to the fire over that either.

 

[Chempop]

I did believe you, and this was never about the screen size debate. That is a separate thing and it's not relevant anymore. I wanted to clarify if you were certain it was 1.01 or 1.00 mode and not arrange. I had hoped you could give me some helpful tips to clearing some parts I suck at, but you were in the middle of sorting out something and I knew it wasn't a good time to ask.

Now this:

Pink Sweets 1cc (arcade)
230,621,480

The version is 1.01

Is 230,621,480 your score???

If so, that is about twenty times the world record

 

[malignantpoodle]

You're absolutely right, that's my arrange score.

I had to go back and look;

4,378,070

Well, you have every reason to doubt me then, I understand. The evidence doesn't support the claim and that's my fault. You shouldn't be lambasted because of that.

 

[Chempop]

Glad we got that cleared up. Bygones be bygones?
Sorry if I offended your Fast Striker score, I'm sure it was a lot of work.
I was not trying to be malicious in chat, I understand if my comments blended into whatever argument was going on (I don't even know what it was about). Spending a saturday afternoon arguing with DK can sometimes get the better of us, we've all been there

 

[mmsadda]

I was thinking the same thing... CRT or GTFO

Also, screen size is important, but what also matters is how close you are sitting to it. These games are designed to be sitting directly in front of a 25-27" monitor that is tilted backwards a bit. Giant screens are going to be a disadvantage because your field of vision is not going to be able to really process everything at once. Many of the best players use small screens because they can see everything at once without adjusting their eyes much at all. The larger the screen, the looser the controls are going to feel, that's a fact.

As for how to play, well there have been a few good suggestions and I'll reiterate the important ones and add a few:

Lots of practice with the SAME GAME is key, but also playing a wide variety of games will help you improve faster as well. It's a catch22 but it's absolutely true. Different games teach different skills, once you gather enough skills, apply them all to a game you like AND STICK WITH IT until you see drastic progress.

Learn and apply the different techniques such:

Micro dodging - weaving with small dodges in between patterns, focus on the empty spaces between the bullets... if you look at the bullets, you'll fly into them lol!
Macro dodging - swooping around an entire pattern all together
Tap dodging aka streaming - tiny taps in the same direction to have bullets miss you by only a small distance
"U-dodging" and bullet herding - how to position yourself to control where enemies will fire
Panic Bombing - if a game has bombs, learn to use them right before you get hit. many players don't know how to do this and die again and again with bombs in stock.
Quick-shot - many enemies can be killed faster the closer you are to them due to rate of fire. learn how to be aggressive when the game allows it.

Those are some of the important skills, feel free to ask questions.

Here's how it works for me:

enemies enter - I either decide to kill them immediately or maneuver to safety and then kill them
they start shooting - my brain calculate trajectories and I recognize the safe spots
I move into the safe spots - I don't need to worry about my hitbox, because I know I'm safe

The above are points of good advice from someone who knows his shmups

 

[malignantpoodle]

Glad we got that cleared up. Bygones be bygones?
Sorry if I offended your Fast Striker score, I'm sure it was a lot of work.
I was not trying to be malicious in chat, I understand if my comments blended into whatever argument was going on (I don't even know what it was about). Spending a saturday afternoon arguing with DK can sometimes get the better of us, we've all been there

I'm sorry man you just caught me at a bad time.

Also, I wouldn't believe me either considering the circumstances.

It's ok about the Fast Striker score. It's easy to be #2 when hardly anybody has it I have to be honest if it had the distribution some of our beloved 360 games get I wouldn't be in the top 10.

 

[oldschool]

I love shmups but there is a lot to be desired in my own skills (there is room for improvement, always!). Having some time with a Shuwatch has improved leaps and bounds.

When getting a feel for the flow/pace of a shooter, I move around the screen a lot in tiny 'circles', just more so habit to help with how quick the enemies may come. As with other arcade games, get a real feel what finger(s) you're most comfortable with, unless you're sticking to thumbs on a gamepad.

I really like the pacifist practice, although I use the same methods frequently, but change the gameplay for yourself, shoot a few ships and then practice your weaving, even though it may seem fruitless at first. In Gradius, hone in on the enemy spawns that seem to hug the walls but weave through the airborne enemies that follow at will.

 

[-D-]

I generally agree on CRT or GTFO, at least when it comes to older consoles. Whether you're sensitive to the lag or not doesn't matter, it's still there, and it will impact your game on some level.

But I'm pretty impartial between Semitsu sticks and Saturn pads; played a ton of both and when I beat my high scores it seems to be random which one I'm playing with. But a Semitsu stick is going to be a step up from an NEC pad, for sure. I actually use a Tototek controller adapter on my Duo, it allows me to use a Saturn pad(but one of the Japanese for PS1/PS2 types) for all the great PCE shmups.

I can't really think of any advice that hasn't been given already though, these guys have nailed all of it, just practice practice practice is the most important.

Also: PLEASE vote for Blazing Lazers in that Shmup of the month poll.