Neo-geo.com Official WTF NEO Auction Thread

D

Double Reppuken

NGFL Member., xROTx,
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Posts
43
madman said:
This. Also if the carts are simply using the Neo as an A/V output (he has yet to link to what he's read that claims this), how does he explain the bootleg copies of Last Hope made using original SNK boards? But hey, that's probably just me antagonizing people again by asking them to back up their claims with facts.

Also if we look at the NXP chip, based on the datasheet I'd guess it's mostly handling the USB/external programmer side of the house and not doing any sort of heavy lifting.

Edit: https://wiki.neogeodev.org/index.php?title=NG:Dev.Team Confirms what I was thinking. If there is information to the contrary, I'd be interested in reading it.
Click to expand...

I never claimed this was a fact. It was something I read years ago, maybe on this forum, I don't recall.

That's why I stated ****IF***** it was true, then the games were of even less value in my eyes.
 
D

Double Reppuken

NGFL Member., xROTx,
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Posts
43
madman said:
lulz.
Click to expand...

I wasn't the one doing the antagonizing in the quote above. That dude (Oliver Claude) came at me sideways for no reason at all. I've seen his type many times. Typical arrogant asshole who thinks he's God because he has a big Neo Geo collection. So I stand by what I said. If he were to humble himself and apologize that would be a different story.
 
Last edited:
D

Double Reppuken

NGFL Member., xROTx,
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Posts
43
ShootTheCore said:
It's my understanding that the microprocessors inside the NG Dev carts handle data decompression, decryption and multiplexing. They also double as an anti-piracy mechanism.

Many of the NG Dev games do stream some pre-rendered animations for backgrounds and special effects, but SNK devs did the same things with games like Viewpoint, Pulstar and Prehistoric Isle 2.

Sure, it's possible that one of the NG Dev cart processors is doing some level of game logic processing or graphics rendering like Nintendo did with the various SNES enhancement chips. But the Neo Geo's procs are still doing plenty of heavy lifting-its hardly a dumb terminal.
Click to expand...

I doubt all that processing power is only being used for encryption. That would certainly be overkill.

Doesn't matter anyway. The fact is those games are not legit SNK. They do look well done, but if I'm going to spend thousands I'd rather it be on a real SNK release. That's really my only point.
 
HeavyMachineGoob

HeavyMachineGoob

My poontang misses Lenn Yang's wang
10 Year Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Posts
5,850
The Neo Geo doesn't have a way to directly output analog or digital video from the cartridge slot, it is impossible for the Neo Geo to be a "dumb terminal" and act as just a power and AV source for a system-on-a-chip in a cartridge. Whoever told you NG DEV games do that is a moron.

The only reason they went with "all that processing power" is those chips are still being manufactured and are therefore inexpensive. Why would they pay more for a less powerful solution to their needs? Given what we know about the Neo Geo hardware (see http://wiki.neogeodev.org), it's safe to say the FPGA and CPLD chips in NG DEV cartridges is just for data mapping, decompression, decryption, demultiplexing and/or anti-piracy protection.
 
D

Double Reppuken

NGFL Member., xROTx,
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Posts
43
HeavyMachineGun said:
The Neo Geo doesn't have a way to directly output analog or digital video from the cartridge slot, it is impossible for the Neo Geo to be a "dumb terminal" and act as just a power and AV source for a system-on-a-chip in a cartridge. Whoever told you NG DEV games do that is a moron.

The only reason they went with "all that processing power" is those chips are still being manufactured and are therefore inexpensive. Why would they pay more for a less powerful solution to their needs? Given what we know about the Neo Geo hardware (see http://wiki.neogeodev.org), it's safe to say the FPGA and CPLD chips in NG DEV cartridges is just for data mapping, decompression, decryption, demultiplexing and/or anti-piracy protection.
Click to expand...

So what's that fat 32 bit micro being used for?

So far it looks like none of us really know what's going on inside the cart, we're all speculating or passing along what we've heard or read elsewhere.

As far as using the Neo as a "dumb terminal" from a cart, that could probably be achieved by having a program running on the Neo's processor which just passes along controller input and copies video frame buffers from the cart (generated by the more powerful chips)...something along those lines.
 
madman

madman

Blame madman, You Know You Want To.,
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Posts
7,518
Double Reppuken said:
If you think that these chips aren't being used to run the game (or at least do some serious heavy lifting to help out) you're delusional.
Click to expand...

Double Reppuken said:
I never claimed this was a fact. It was something I read years ago, maybe on this forum, I don't recall.

That's why I stated ****IF***** it was true, then the games were of even less value in my eyes.
Click to expand...

OK let me see if I'm following. I would be delusional to think that the chips on the NGDev games aren't running the entire game or doing serious heavy lifting. Except you never said it was a fact that those chips are doing any game related processing. So I'd be delusional to not believe something even you don't believe and never said was a fact? Is that what you're saying to me?
 
radiantsvgun

radiantsvgun

They call him Mr. Windy
15 Year Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Posts
1,695
madman said:
OK let me see if I'm following. I would be delusional to think that the chips on the NGDev games aren't running the entire game or doing serious heavy lifting. Except you never said it was a fact that those chips are doing any game related processing. So I'd be delusional to not believe something even you don't believe and never said was a fact? Is that what you're saying to me?
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
Claudia Schiffer

Claudia Schiffer

back to basics
15 Year Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Posts
4,621
madman said:
OK let me see if I'm following. I would be delusional to think that the chips on the NGDev games aren't running the entire game or doing serious heavy lifting. Except you never said it was a fact that those chips are doing any game related processing. So I'd be delusional to not believe something even you don't believe and never said was a fact? Is that what you're saying to me?
Click to expand...

lol wut? yeah i don't get it.
 
madman

madman

Blame madman, You Know You Want To.,
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Posts
7,518
Double Reppuken said:
So what's that fat 32 bit micro being used for?

So far it looks like none of us really know what's going on inside the cart, we're all speculating or passing along what we've heard or read elsewhere.

As far as using the Neo as a "dumb terminal" from a cart, that could probably be achieved by having a program running on the Neo's processor which just passes along controller input and copies video frame buffers from the cart (generated by the more powerful chips)...something along those lines.
Click to expand...

We do know what the "fat 32 bit micro" is being used for. I posted the data sheet. You can also follow some of the pin traces on the various board scans and see where they are connected, though with a multi-layer PCB we obviously cannot see all of them.

I don't see how one can copy "frame buffers" solely from the cart when the CHA board is separate from the PROG board which contains the processors that you believe are handling the bulk of the processing power. You are aware the Neo uses 5 separate buses and what their purposes are? You are aware the VRAM used on the Neo isn't used like typical VRAM to store at least an entire frame? You are aware the 68000 CPU can only access the P bus/ROMs and nothing from the CHA board that contains the majority of the graphics data? So how would your method of "the Neo's processor" accessing that data work exactly?
 
Last edited:
D

Double Reppuken

NGFL Member., xROTx,
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Posts
43
madman said:
Except you never said it was a fact that those chips are doing any game related processing.
Click to expand...

NO. I never stated it was a fact that the carts were doing EVERYTHING game related, and essentially using the Neo as a dumb terminal. That is just something I read, which I believe is POSSIBLE, but I don't know if it's true. If it IS true, then IMO that's lame.

I also believe you are delusional if you think NOTHING game/graphics related is being done by the cart with all the processors it has, and that all that processing power is just for security or compression, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong. If so, I've got no problem admitting it. Even in that case, it would't matter. My only point is I don't see why people feel inclined to pay thousands for homebrew carts. The topic of how much processing is being done on cart vs. console is just a side note. I've stated that at least twice, so I'm going to give this topic a rest.
 
madman

madman

Blame madman, You Know You Want To.,
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Posts
7,518
Double Reppuken said:
ok man, you're right i'm wrong. no way cart could help out with game processing.
Click to expand...

Not using that NPX chip, no. Read the data sheet, dude. Look at all the serial interfaces on it.

The LPC2468 microcontroller is ideal for multi-purpose communication applications.
These features make this device optimally suited for communication gateways and protocol converters.
All of these features make the LPC2468 particularly suitable for industrial control and medical systems.
Click to expand...

Sure sounds like a real number crunching powerhouse of a chip!!

I'm done with ya.
 
HeavyMachineGoob

HeavyMachineGoob

My poontang misses Lenn Yang's wang
10 Year Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Posts
5,850
Double Reppuken said:
NO. I never stated it was a fact that the carts were doing EVERYTHING game related, and essentially using the Neo as a dumb terminal. That is just something I read, which I believe is POSSIBLE, but I don't know if it's true. If it IS true, then IMO that's lame.

I also believe you are delusional if you think NOTHING game/graphics related is being done by the cart with all the processors it has, and that all that processing power is just for security or compression, etc.

Maybe I'm wrong. If so, I've got no problem admitting it. Even in that case, it would't matter. My only point is I don't see why people feel inclined to pay thousands for homebrew carts. The topic of how much processing is being done on cart vs. console is just a side note. I've stated that at least twice, so I'm going to give this topic a rest.
Click to expand...

Let's look at those Gunlord scans again:

http://www.mvs-scans.com/index.php/File:Gun_lord_unofficial1_b1_front.jpg
http://www.mvs-scans.com/index.php/File:Gun_lord_unofficial1_b2_front.jpg

Going by the visible layout of the two boards, the FPGA and CPLD on the PROG board do not appear to be sitting between the P and V ROMs and the cartridge edge connector. Not only that, but the CHA board is only ROMs and glue logic (probably level shifters). Unless those black connectors on top are joining the two boards together, it's very highly unlikely the FPGA and CPLD chips are running the show here.

The other problem with your theory is the Neo Geo is too application-specific to support literally streaming a complete game and inputs from a system-on-a-cartridge. The amalgamated data from the cartridge slot is available to the following data buses:

68000
Z80
YM2610 ADPCM-A
YM2610 ADPCM-B
Graphics chipset odd
Graphics chipset even

All of those processors must be fed compatible data in order for the Neo Geo to work. The closest you can get is purely ADPCM music, even then you still need graphics that are in Neo Geo format. 95% of the game screen is done with "sprites", but you still need to code those sprites so they can be game characters, backgrounds and foregrounds.

You can't literally execute a game from the cartridge boards and stream it through the Neo Geo, it doesn't work like that. The best you could do is pre-render polygons with a processor on the CHA board, but you still need to code a Neo Geo game like normal.
 
Neo Alec

Neo Alec

Warrior of the Innanet
20 Year Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2000
Posts
12,025
I think Double Reppuken may be referring to earlier conversations on this board I was involved in, around the time Fast Striker or maybe Gunlord was released. Some of us felt that Fast Striker didn't feel Neo Geo-y enough and speculated that there might be hardware on the cart helping process the game.

I've since read the Neo Geo programming manual and learned more about the hardware, so I've realized it's not possible.

However, I would be very interested to learn more about how they managed to stream stereo ADPCM at such an apparently high sampling rate.
 
M

MetalSludge

Armored Scrum Object
15 Year Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Posts
260
The NG DEV "complete" AES set ultimately went for 6,600 euros.

Suspect that we will see a few more NG DEV cart auctions testing the waters in the coming weeks and months after that happened.
 
frazer99

frazer99

Living on the wrong, side of the Pennines,
20 Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2000
Posts
344
Niko said:
Fuck no, thats a $25 dumpster cart. That guys a member here too. He should know better.
Click to expand...

That was my eBay sale. I picked up that Mahjong game from a store in Bangkok. I paid £20.00 for it and put it on ebay to start at £25.00. It was at £31.00 for ages and that's what I thought it would sell for. Couldn't believe it went for nearly £200.00. I was going to list it originally for £35.00 as a BIN. The cart was sold to a german buyer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top