How do you feel about red flag laws?

norton9478

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Sure...yeah, your initial reply was completely free of emotion or cynicism...not a drop to be found.




You've made your views on this topic crystal clear elsewhere, fella...don't act all middle-of-the-road about it now...

It was a bit trolly....

My views on the topic are that people should generally be able to own guns and be a danger to the community(I even support the automatic right of ex-felons to own guns). Just because I pick apart your emotionally driven arguments doesn't mean that I'm anti gun. I'm anti bad argument. And gun nuts make a lot of bad arguments.
 

norton9478

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In the case of parkland, one of the first things the gun nuts did was blame the FBI for missing "Red Flags" (their words). But in all actuality, Nicholas Cruz didn't break any laws.

Then, they tried to blame the coward school resource officer.
 

Lagduf

2>X
20 Year Member
Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply. They take lots of shit (including you) without proof or conviction.

Due process is not subverted as any order has to be signed by a judge and there is legal recourse for reinstationing.

I will Have to ruminate on this. Ultimately we’re going to need some data. But how do we even know something like this is effective? How do we know we’re preventing violence. If you are infringing in someone’s right I’m going to need some evidence showing it’s worth it or justified.


God forbid someone loses their guns for a few weeks while shit gets sorted out. It ain't like your car got taken away, or your house or your kids.
-They are just tools.. Am I rite???

Why not just arrest you then? They are tools protected by the constitution.


And finally, what do you guys do for someone who owns guns and tells everyone how he would like to shoot up a public place?

Isn’t that already a crime? Threats of violence?
 
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Lagduf

2>X
20 Year Member
In the case of parkland, one of the first things the gun nuts did was blame the FBI for missing "Red Flags" (their words). But in all actuality, Nicholas Cruz didn't break any laws.

Then, they tried to blame the coward school resource officer.

They extremist, vocal minorities, of all interest groups and parties male said entities look bad. Makes for good television.
 

smokehouse

I was Born This Ugly.,
15 Year Member
It was a bit trolly....

My views on the topic are that people should generally be able to own guns and be a danger to the community(I even support the automatic right of ex-felons to own guns). Just because I pick apart your emotionally driven arguments doesn't mean that I'm anti gun. I'm anti bad argument. And gun nuts make a lot of bad arguments.

Can you address how you think my arguments are incorrect? You keep chucking out insults or remarks, but never address anything directly.

I'm claiming that:

-red flag laws are not following rule of law correctly. It is penalizing otherwise legally acting individuals based solely on an accusation. Red flag laws do not have anything to do with illegal acts, those have their own set of laws.

-overwhelmingly, laws attempting to "prevent" crime are problematic, over-reaching, and have proven to take minor offenders and make them legal high level criminals...or criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens.



Murder, rape, theft, arson...I could go on and on, they're all completely illegal already. Time and tie again, new laws making penalties more severe, or increased police/DEA/etc intervention has not been effective...yet we continue to "crack down" more and more. Since that isn't working, now were experimenting with thought crimes to "prevent" the acts from happening in the first place. I don't feel this is a road we need to go down. The sad fact is that no matter how hard the laws are, how stiff the punishment, someone will break it before the ink on the paper is even dried.
 

norton9478

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I will Have to ruminate on this. Ultimately we’re going to need some data. But how do we even know something like this is effective? How do we know we’re preventing violence. If you are infringing in someone’s right I’m going to need some evidence showing it’s worth it or justified.

If someone is stockpiling guns and talking about fantasies shooting up a public place, there is a pretty good indication of what might happen.


Isn’t that already a crime? Threats of violence?

Not necessarily. It depends on the circumstances. But even if it was a threat, you and others are implying the argument that the guns should not be removed until AFTER the person is convicted.
 

norton9478

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Can you address how you think my arguments are incorrect? You keep chucking out insults or remarks, but never address anything directly.

I'm claiming that:

-red flag laws are not following rule of law correctly. It is penalizing otherwise legally acting individuals based solely on an accusation. Red flag laws do not have anything to do with illegal acts, those have their own set of laws.

So I take it you are conceding the point on "Due Process....

Anyways, It is about balancing the interests of public safety with individual rights to property. There is always a line.

-overwhelmingly, laws attempting to "prevent" crime are problematic, over-reaching, and have proven to take minor offenders and make them legal high level criminals...or criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens.

This statement is too big and too vague to effectively respond to.
 

norton9478

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I will Have to ruminate on this. Ultimately we’re going to need some data. But how do we even know something like this is effective? How do we know we’re preventing violence. If you are infringing in someone’s right I’m going to need some evidence showing it’s worth it or justified.

Obviously, the law has to be on the books and enforced to know the effectiveness.

Also worthy of study will be the instances and circumstances in which the law is invoked.



Why not just arrest you then? They are tools protected by the constitution.

Your right to detainment is also protected. But there is an exemption for person who are deemed to be a threat to themselves or others.
 

smokehouse

I was Born This Ugly.,
15 Year Member
So I take it you are conceding the point on "Due Process....

No, I'm not.

In Illinois, any family member or police officer can file a petition for a temporary restraining order. According to law, these must be expedited to a judge, most often the same day of filing. According to Illinois law, this hearing and order can occur ex parte and if the judge agrees to the order, the police are granted the immediate permission to serve this to the individual and as of filing all firearm rights are suspended including their Ill FOID card as well as concealed carry, if they have one.

The accused has to wait a minimum of two weeks before they are even allowed to file a petition to regain property and other rights. The order will not expire, it stays in effect until the accused files a petition.

How, in any world, is this not guilty until proven innocent? Based on an accusation, not an actual illegal act, a person can lose rights and property and then have the burden of proof laid at their feet to remove the order.

Who pays for this? Who deals with the aftermath of this happening to you in front of your neighbors? Who will cover your time and possible legal fees to regain rights/property?

This is a punishment...there's other way to describe it. Sadly, it's all done without what most people would consider to be due process.
 

Lagduf

2>X
20 Year Member
Obviously, the law has to be on the books and enforced to know the effectiveness.

Also worthy of study will be the instances and circumstances in which the law is invoked.

Any states have laws that require analysis of legislation after it has been implemented for X years?

Part of my opposition is probably my cynicism. Passing laws like these are easy and don’t seek to treat the root problem.
 

norton9478

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No, I'm not.

In Illinois, any family member or police officer can file a petition for a temporary restraining order. According to law, these must be expedited to a judge, most often the same day of filing. According to Illinois law, this hearing and order can occur ex parte and if the judge agrees to the order, the police are granted the immediate permission to serve this to the individual and as of filing all firearm rights are suspended including their Ill FOID card as well as concealed carry, if they have one.

The accused has to wait a minimum of two weeks before they are even allowed to file a petition to regain property and other rights. The order will not expire, it stays in effect until the accused files a petition.

How, in any world, is this not guilty until proven innocent? Based on an accusation, not an actual illegal act, a person can lose rights and property and then have the burden of proof laid at their feet to remove the order.

Who pays for this? Who deals with the aftermath of this happening to you in front of your neighbors? Who will cover your time and possible legal fees to regain rights/property?

This is a punishment...there's other way to describe it. Sadly, it's all done without what most people would consider to be due process.


Is this what you are talking about?

https://fox2now.com/2018/12/26/illinois-firearms-restraining-order-act-goes-into-effect-january-1st/

I'm actually surprised this is new. I know that when my uncle was on a BS protective order 40 years ago, they took his guns.
 
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norton9478

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I also don't see anything about a police officer being able to file a petition. Only Family members. Although Police can provide evidence/testimony in support of.
 

norton9478

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Anyways I understand that while to some a restraining order might feel like punishment... It isn't. It just sucks. Like most things in life.

I also understand that some people feel like they can't live without their guns for a few weeks. Maybe they shouldn't have any.
 

Lagduf

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20 Year Member
Anyways I understand that while to some a restraining order might feel like punishment... It isn't. It just sucks. Like most things in life.

I also understand that some people feel like they can't live without their guns for a few weeks. Maybe they shouldn't have any.

Many people probably shouldn’t have things, but with regard to firearms, (and for better or worse) it’s their right.
 

Lagduf

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20 Year Member
In what instance would it be appropriate to removes someone’s firearms via a Red Flag law but not also charge them with a crime or have them medically detained (such as CA 5150 or FL Baker Act) for actually being a threat to themselves or others?

Don’t we already have the mechanisms to remove firearms from those who are threat to society?
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
In what instance would it be appropriate to removes someone’s firearms via a Red Flag law but not also charge them with a crime or have them medically detained (such as CA 5150 or FL Baker Act) for actually being a threat to themselves or others?

Don’t we already have the mechanisms to remove firearms from those who are threat to society?

I haven’t read the law, but there will likely be legal challenges early on to test it. If it’s not written well, it will likely be struck down, and we will have at the least precedence.
 

norton9478

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Many people probably shouldn’t have things, but with regard to firearms, (and for better or worse) it’s their right.

Not if you have an order of protection against you..... In some states at least.
 

norton9478

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In what instance would it be appropriate to removes someone’s firearms via a Red Flag law but not also charge them with a crime or have them medically detained (such as CA 5150 or FL Baker Act) for actually being a threat to themselves or others?

Don’t we already have the mechanisms to remove firearms from those who are threat to society?

Even if you are charged with a crime, you are still "innocent until proven guilty right"?
Or do you concede the point on this issue?

Also. to answer your question, some states have civil (but not criminal) assault/harassment laws that necessitate an order of protection.

I have also known people to get an order of protection without having anybody charged with a crime(or even civil infraction).
 

norton9478

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The phrase "Red Flag Law" is ubiquitous and can mean different things (see also "Sanctuary City").
 

Lagduf

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Even if you are charged with a crime, you are still "innocent until proven guilty right"?
Or do you concede the point on this issue?

Also. to answer your question, some states have civil (but not criminal) assault/harassment laws that necessitate an order of protection.

I have also known people to get an order of protection without having anybody charged with a crime(or even civil infraction).

I don’t know what you mean in your first paragraph.

In the latter are you saying there already are mechanisms to deprive a person of their firearms? It seems like there are, but I suppose it varies by state.
 

Karou

Gandalf Of Gibberish,
10 Year Member
copy paste

This IS the way it will happen. It already has in a few states...
It’s a Sunday night and your family has all gone to bed. You let the dogs back in and lock the deadbolt like you do every night. All the lights are off now except a couple of night lights scattered throughout the house leaving that dim glow throughout your home. It’s bedtime and work and school are going to come early in the morning. You crawl in bed, kiss your wife and drift off to sleep being thankful for the air conditioning that allows you to pull that heavy quilt up over your shoulder despite the fact it’s still 85 degrees outside. A few hours pass...
0200 Monday morning and your wife taps your leg and says, “baby I heard something outside”. As you sit up in bed you hear the dog growling in the living room and you know something isn’t right. You grab that trusty 'ol 870 and head into the living room. Your wife grabs her 9mm and heads down the hall to the kids rooms just like you have rehearsed. “Good boy” you say as you enter the living room, trying to calm both the dog and your wife just as splinters fly across the room and the front door flies open. “Oh shit!” As you shoulder your weapon and send a load of 00 Buck across your living room and see the perpetrator fall in a heap. Before the “thank God” can even run across your brain, you see a second man coming in the door and you fire again. This time you hear the pop of your wife’s 9mm as she has joined in the fight. It has to be those damn meth heads from down in town! Just then you are consumed by a wall of bullets as you see multiple muzzle flashes from just outside the door and you realize something isn’t right. You turn to yell at your wife to “get down” just in time to see her take a load of buckshot to the face and her brain matter splatter the wall behind her. You feel the burning as 5.56 rounds riddle your body. One clips your spine as you’re scrambling away and paralyzes your lower body. The last thing you see before you bleed out is a SWAT guy from your local PD holding your teenage daughter on the floor with a knee in her back as she screams and cry’s because she just watched her parents being murdered.
Why did this happen? You’re no criminal. You’re a Conservative and an honest family man. Your wife is a school teacher and your daughters are on honor roll. Why did this happen?
ell two days ago, you and your wife went down to welcome the new neighbors to the community. Your wife made them some of her “world famous” cookies and you invited them to church on Sunday. Later that afternoon, you got a friend request on Facebook from your new neighbor, which you gladly accepted. They seemed a little odd, but in the few minutes you talked they were pleasant enough. The next day while you and your family sat in church, your new neighbor scrolled through your Facebook profile. He saw that “Trump 2020” post and got infuriated because he’s a staunch liberal and he hates your kind. The next thing he sees are the hunting pictures you took last fall when your daughter bagged her first buck. Now he’s seething with fury because he is wholeheartedly against the “slaughter of innocent animals”.Next he sees your post from the last range day with your buddy and sees those scary black assault weapons on the table and that does it! He has to do something about the racist, right wing extremist, domestic terrorist living next door. He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The Sheriffs Office follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent.
Now you, your lovely wife and two deputies have been killed for nothing. Your daughter will have absolute hell for the rest of her life. She will never be that successful person you dreamed for her to be because of the mental tragedy caused from seeing her parents murdered. The local news paper will report that you were killed after firing-on, and killing, two deputiesand that “over a thousand rounds of ammo and 22 guns were confiscated from your residence”.
Oh... those two deputies were just following orders. They left behind families as well and had served their community for over a decade. They didn’t know you were a stand-up guy with a great family. They weren’t allowed time to investigate things under due process. They were told you had threatened your neighbor and were out in the street waving an AR15 around.
This is the reality of Red Flag gun laws. Innocent people will lose their lives, including police serving these unconstitutional no-knock warrants. Red Flag laws will be used for petty and vengeful reasons without merit by gun hating liberals who believe if you own guns, that it somehow automatically makes you a threat to society and therefore you are a right wing extremist domestic terrorist who MUST be stopped and neutralized at all costs (for the safety of others).
Do not forget that ALL gun laws are an infringement of your rights! Now, call and write all of your elected officials including the president, and let them know how you feel! Yes, it’s that important!

i read that whole thing once, it is long!
 

wyo

King of Spammers
10 Year Member
How can I complain to the president and elected officials if I'm dead?
 
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