How do you discover a combo?

SavagePencil

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I'm curious how people discover a particular combo that works. Given some of the crazy ones in KoF (very long strings of specific moves), how do you find some of these out?

I ask because there's precious little that I could find on combos in KoF '94; I'm an OK player but really want to get my skill up in general. I figured going back to a slightly simpler system would be the way to go.
 

soulthug

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Lol matey, the old FFs and KOF 94+5 dont have many combos :)

Try 96 or 98 in practice or somethings, light attacks usually easily chain into another light or a special etc..
Cancelling heavies into supers is important to learn though, for example Saisyu '98's standing C cancels right into either super.

Hope i helped a small amount, but hopefully LWK or Wes or someone can help more.
 

Piratero

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I'd like to know how to do combos in 2002 myself. All the combos I do usually reset the hit counter :crying:
 

Takumaji

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I always try to find at least one or two basic followups for all normal jumping, standing or crouching attacks (punches and kicks) of a character, plus all possible ways to combo/cancel into (S)DMs.

However, combos are just one part of the whole thing, another equally important one is strategy, finding good setups and exploiting them to the max, because even the best combo is useless if you don't come close enough to actually land it.
 

Kirk Foiden

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Here's my approach. Others may do it differently.

Another thing I notice is to test timing. Whenever you hit an opponent, there's a thing called Hit-stun. It's basically the time with which the opponent reels from an impact. You balance that with your current character's ability to do another move. If the time for you to whip out another attack is less than the time for the opponent to recover from the previous hit; you have another move in the combo. You simply experiment with that. You can start with the strongest follow-up move and work towards the weakest, or you can do it the other way around and feel for the strongest or best move you can continue the combo with.

One of the easy lists of combos I tend to do, outside of the typical weak hits lead to strong; is to test out how badly something hit stuns an opponent. Also, once you see something like that, test every special move and/or super that *might* cancel the previous move you hit stunned them with. Cancels are nice, because then you know there's a move you can pull off faster than the rest. You then test to see if you can land that cancelled move before the opponent comes out of hit stun. Some cancels allow you to continue the combo even if the previous move had a lower timed hit stun than some others, due to the speed of pulling off the followup-move.

Outside of combos, I tend to look for pressures. True pressures do anything to keep you at attack advantage. I use this for 2D and 3D games. Having good attack advantage is a state in which if you and the opponent attempt to attack *as soon as possible*; more of your moves would be able to come out and damage first before their's. That, at least, means; their weak attacks would come out too late for yours; their hard attacks come out too late for yours. You're moves are already hitboxed and doing damage before they can, and thus you have priority. This is where block stun comes into place. Block stun is measured by the time your opponent can do ANYTHING to come out of a block after blocking one of your moves. Various moves have larger block stun than others, and often the ones with the biggest hitstun *might* have the biggest blockstun. That, however, isn't always the case 100% (but pretty high); so experimenting is very useful.

Properly broken combos are a combination of the two practices. Broken does mean that the opponent has frames in which they can recover in a combo. However, if during those frames in which they can recover, they are put in disadvantage because of the rule above (your moves have a tendancy to land before theirs could), it's a decent broken combo. Attack advantage is 90% of winning fighting games, in general. The person who stays in that condition, the longest, generally wins, by default. So often enough, I tend to measure outcomes that way. Defensive play can win if your opponent can't properly press the attack...in which they never really gained attack advantage; they're just passively aggressive. Stuff like wins determined by well-placed anti-airs qualifies as such. Good defensive play generally finds whatever best moves to *get out* of the attack disadvantage, turns the tables for a bit, and forces the aggressor to step back and regroup. It's at that point the defensive player has the choice to turn offensive and attempt to stuff them.

Take note, the best defensive characters have utilitarian moves that can come out quick enough after block stun, in which it lowers the frame advantage of the attacker. Also, they may have good utilitarian moves that keep the opponent at distance, avoiding the attack advantage, in the first place.
 
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abasuto

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You can spend months on end learning new combos with different strikers in KOF2k0.
 

SavagePencil

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Takumaji said:
I always try to find at least one or two basic followups for all normal jumping, standing or crouching attacks (punches and kicks) of a character, plus all possible ways to combo/cancel into (S)DMs.

However, combos are just one part of the whole thing, another equally important one is strategy, finding good setups and exploiting them to the max, because even the best combo is useless if you don't come close enough to actually land it.

Yeah, where I'm at right now is playing against more experienced (very good) players. I've learned a lot, quickly. Where I'm at now is not having the chops to memorize the requisite combos, which they can essentially do in their sleep.

We'll do training with just normal moves, and that's helped a lot with jumping distances, timing, mix-ups, cross-ups, etc. And I know when to do many moves on defense; it's the offensive combos I'm having trouble with.

Perhaps I'll move back up the scale to KoF '98 (I only have 94, 98, and 99) and start trying out some of those combos.
 

Takumaji

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SavagePencil said:
Yeah, where I'm at right now is playing against more experienced (very good) players. I've learned a lot, quickly. Where I'm at now is not having the chops to memorize the requisite combos, which they can essentially do in their sleep.

This is why it's a good idea to stick to one or two characters at first and learn all their strengths and weaknesses, then practise them to death until you have reached a skill level where you don't have to think about the next move or attack anymore and thus can fully concentrate on your opponent.

You did the right thing with going back to KoF94 and 95, both of them have cool combos with very strict timing. Play the two (preferrably in 2P) for a few months and you will have no problems adapting your style to games with more relaxed timing like the post-95 KoFs, the later SFs (namely Alpha 3 or 3s) or current games like KoF NW, Tenka, etc.. Timing-wise I also learned a lot from FFS... and yes, specially FFS has some badass combos, most of the older games just don't have a rush hit counter but it's still possible to land some cool 5-hitters or strings.

The idea is to train long enough not only to memorize combos and setups but literally implant them into your mind to make your reaction faster, because if you have to think about which special is better after a f+B command attack, you have lost already.

Most characters have one or two "signature combos", like good old Takuma's jD, start charging db -> sC -> f+D -> f,b,f+C or Iori's Aoi Hana combos (qcb+P x3) starting off of a command attack, etc. They are good to use in almost any situation, so it's recommended to learn them. For more of these combos, check out KoF combo faqs on GameFAQs or search the Gameplay and KoF forums, we had a lot of nice combo threads here in the past, namely the KoF 98 combo thread which still is stickied. Many combos you find there will work in other KoFs (or even SFs) as well, most of the time it's just a matter of different timing.

Oh, and here's another tip to avoid (or induce...) frustration: If you can't beat them - annoy them! :D
 

SavagePencil

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Thanks for the advice! Here's another one for you:

I've stuck predominantly with the normal characters, and haven't been able to do Kyo's style very well. Especially in the later games, it seems to be linking move after move after move, but I'm terrible at pulling it off.

At what point do you enter the "follow-up" command? Like for his Style 114 in SVC, when do you input the command for Style 128, etc.? Is it *after* the first blow has landed, but before it's finished animating?
 

cam347

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Leanr your basic combos liek punishment situations that require less than 3 commands. One's that are easy, good damage and quick for example I always use
crouching C, Moon Slasher or standing D (2 hits), Rebel Spark with Leona. I could use a Baltic Launcher or a ground V-Slasher but not safe and dont wanna take the risk of messing up the command, psositioning and my timing.

Learn offensive combos for example
run, crouching B, Crouching A, Moon Slasher (C) with Leona.
No one expects a run up attack to combo espcially from a charge character along with it starting from a low attack and no when not to do the combo

for example
if the block crouching B, A then don't do the Moon Slasher or wait a second then do it so if they throw soemthing out u punish it.

Leanr combos off high-attacks and low attacks. Find a good normal to verify it fro man SNK is very good at that. For example take Terry's standing close C
1st hit - qcf
2nd hit - qcf + P
and you have a nice Buster Wolf combo! :D

Also learn the positioning for example in SNK games
For some people maybe like Ryo u cannot do standing close C, Koho (C) or one hit will whiff and not knock the opponent down leaving you wide open.
 

Takumaji

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SavagePencil said:
At what point do you enter the "follow-up" command? Like for his Style 114 in SVC, when do you input the command for Style 128, etc.? Is it *after* the first blow has landed, but before it's finished animating?

Yep, you have to be finished inputting the command for the follow-up shortly after the first move has hit but still is in its anim phase.

Example: Kyo in KoF95.

jumping C -> standing C -> qcf+C

First of all, it's important to land the jumping C "deep", which means as shortly before touching the ground as possible. The jumping C has three animation frames, the last one consists of Kyo's fist hitting your opponent in the area of his neck/chest.

Now while the animation of the jumping C hit is still going on, input the standing C, it will combo after the jumping C which takes only a fraction of a second. It's a good idea to forget about the qcf+C follow-up at first and practise the jumping C -> standing C part as long as you can pull it off with ease. Watch the rush hit counter, it should show two hits if you do it right.

For the qcf+C follow-up, you have to be slightly quicker than for the jC -> sC part. In the middle of the standing C animation, input the qcf+C and Kyo will throw a projectile which counts as the third consecutive hit of this small combo.

Three-hit combos are very common in most fighting games, even good ol' SF2 WW has them.

However, be careful with older games without rush hit counters, it can be quite tricky to find out wether a follow-up actually combos or just "chains" into the first move. This means a follow-up comes out quick and looks like it would be a consecutive combo hit but actually is not and thus could be interrupted by your opponent.
 

roninbuddha

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just would like to say:
KOF2000 + MAX strikers = Infinitly good deal of combo possibilities... of course, scrubbyness as well.
 

Takumaji

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Another thing.

If you hit your opponent, say with a standing strong punch (sC), he will be unable to do anything for a very short while. The harder your attack, the longer it will take him to recover from the blow. This is called hit stun, if your character has a move that is quick enough to hit within this short time window, it will combo. Well, that doesn't work with all moves, though, some can't be used in a combo or only with limitations. For example, most characters in KoF games have so-called command attacks, these consist of stick forward or back + A or B, like Takuma's f+A. When used stand-alone, Tak's f+A knocks your opponent down, but if you precede it with a normal attack (like sC -> f+A -> ...), it will not k.o. and the combo can be continued.

The basic principle of a combo is a sequence of uninterruptable attacks which send your opponent in a continous hit stun as long as the combo lasts. Take a look at some combo videos and watch the character on the receiving end, you will only see his "getting hit" and hit stun animations but never his normal or recovery anim/stance.
 

SavagePencil

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OK here's another one: does hit stun "accumulate"?

For example, let's say a combo is: Jumping Strong Punch, Crouching Light Kick x2, Some Super Move.

Does it *have* to be executed like that, or could I start it right off with the Crouching Light Kicks?
 

Takumaji

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SavagePencil said:
OK here's another one: does hit stun "accumulate"?

For example, let's say a combo is: Jumping Strong Punch, Crouching Light Kick x2, Some Super Move.

Does it *have* to be executed like that, or could I start it right off with the Crouching Light Kicks?

Basically, hit stun effects do not accumulate per se within a small combo, for ex. if you hit your opp. with three light punches in a row that combo, the hit stun phase after the third hit will last as long as for a single light punch.

However, many fighting games have a damage accumulation/dizzy rule with two important variables: Time and damage. If you inflict lots of damage on your opp. within a short time (not necessarily with combos), he will become dizzy and thus unable to do anything and you could land another sure-fire hit.

A good example for a dizzy combo is the Kyo-KoF95 combo I've posted above: jC -> sC -> qcf+C, it instantly dizzies many opponents, then there are Guile's infamous (re-)dizzy combos in SF2 WW, etc.

About the combo you posted, yeah, it could be done without the jumping attack as well because crouching light kicks have no prerequisite to combo like command attacks. This is an example for a basic combo tool that works in almost any situation (crouching, standing, jumping), the leading jumping strong punch just makes the combo more damaging.

As soon as you are able to pull off combos like that, it's time to practise DM combos and Super Cancels (available in later KoFs and most modern fighters). The term DM combo is self explanatory, it's a combo that ends with a DM.

During a Super Cancel, a move (mostly a special) gets interrrupted (cancelled) in the middle of the move animation and combos straight into a DM. This does a lot of damage (sometimes more than a normal DM combo) and also looks cool... Most characters in later KoFs (99 and on) have at least one cancellable special move that can be used either straight away or in MAX mode (press ABC). Cancelling is slightly trickier than simply comboing into a DM because you have to be very quick with pulling off the DM to cancel the special, but it gives the characters a more uniform and balanced way to use DMs in combos.
 

Formation Z

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Kinda reminds me of this old thread I made a long time ago when i was under the name "Youkai"

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90985&highlight=combo+video

Combos are very hard to do for me. I'm still banging my head over most KoF combos, like I see quite a few light punches connecting and then do the super move. Yet when I try to do them, the light punches just pushes the opponent further and I'm always not fast enough to do the super in time.
 
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