How do you feel about red flag laws?

[LoneSage]

ssdnsia

Red flag laws give police the ability to go to a gun owner's home and take away their gun for up to a year if someone (like a doctor, confidant, friend, etc...) tell the police they are concerned about your well-being.

Today is the first day I have heard about them and apparently quite a few states already have these laws.

 

[evil wasabi]

I guess this would require police to know all the guns a person has. Or where to look.

 

[Xavier]

I didn't know they gave them back to you after awhile, that's good.

No it's a slippery slope. You get on Trumps personal enemies list or some other watchlist and they come and take your guns.

On the other hand these guns rights people have gone mad.

They get up in arms because they can't run around the capitol with their weapons.

They run around at church and Chipotles armed.

The NRA is is making disturbing videos and being infiltrated by Russian agents.

After all these mass shootings they come up with common sense gun laws but none of them would really do anything to cut down on the number of these killings.

Really though when it comes to rights for minorities and protected class citizens these guns rights groups don't really care.

 

[evil wasabi]

The NRA is is making disturbing videos and being infiltrated by Russian agents.

Butina, aka Red Chicken.

 

[smokehouse]

I feel it's another pointless action in a desperate attempt to preempt insane violent behavior, which I really do not think can be done properly.

Will this possibly prevent some violent crimes? Who knows...but how many will needlessly get caught up in the system in the process?

This all stinks of the "near-miss" workplace safety bullshit...did an accident happen? "No...but it could have so let's address this ad nauseam and make everything a 16 step process to make sure that almost accident never happens again."

There's an ultra fine line between "innocent until proven guilty" and the thought-police. Forced seizure of someone's private property based on a 3d party claim, no matter what that property is, seems like a serious stretch and not a place we want to go.

 

[Lagduf]

I oppose red flag laws because you can’t infringe on someones right without due process. It’s innocent until proven guilty, amirite? The persons who can raise the “red flags” in many cases aren’t medical professionals - who are the only such people who should be able to determine if a person is a risk to themselves or others.

I didn't know they gave them back to you after awhile, that's good.

No it's a slippery slope. You get on Trumps personal enemies list or some other watchlist and they come and take your guns.

On the other hand these guns rights people have gone mad.

They get up in arms because they can't run around the capitol with their weapons.

They run around at church and Chipotles armed.

The NRA is is making disturbing videos and being infiltrated by Russian agents.

After all these mass shootings they come up with common sense gun laws but none of them would really do anything to cut down on the number of these killings.

Really though when it comes to rights for minorities and protected class citizens these guns rights groups don't really care.

Calling legislation “common sense” is an ad hominem attack against opponents of the legislation. What is the implication if you’re an opponent of “common sense?” Obviously that you’re some kind of moron or zealot.

Common sense is a fallacy itself. All knowledge is learned not inherent. Instinct is not knowledge. Democratic Government isn’t “common sense” - it doesn’t even exist in nature. It’s something we’ve created. But that’s an aside.

Regarding “gun rights people” remember that the loudest and most vocal are the minority. No different than so called ultra PC “SJW” types. The issue of carrying arms in public has yet to be resolved. The Supreme Court has kicked the can down the road for too long. The 2nd Amendment protects the right to carry some form of loaded firearm in public. I expect we’ll get a case in a few years clarifying this. It’s been a decade since the last major gun case at SCOTUS.

PS: The NRA sucks.

 

[Xavier]

Like the Obama idea that terrorists on the no fly list can't buy an assault weapon. Seemed like common sense to me but it didn't pass and wouldn't have stopped one fatality so far anyways.

 

[Lagduf]

We need to get rid of the no fly list too.

 

[SpamYouToDeath]

We need to get rid of the no fly list too.

All of the security/surveillance policy from the last 30 years is useless. The "no fly" list, "terror watch" lists, the TSA, the DHS, the REAL ID act, the PATRIOT ACT, all of it. It's a massive money-pit driven by innumeracy and panic. We get essentially no value out of the tax dollars spent there.

If the enemy has fission warheads aboard stealth bombers, defense spending makes sense. There's serious value in preempting that enemy. If the enemy can't even figure out how their bootleg rocket launchers work, you're just wasting money trying to "stop" them. It would be far better to spend the money somewhere else and just eat the occasional attack.

Unfortunately, terrorism is very, very effective. One lunatic puts half a bomb in his shoe, and 350 million people have to get barefoot at the airport. Our political system doesn't handle risk analysis.

This is the same reason I'm apathetic about gun laws. If you don't want to get shot, don't buy a gun. That's more than half of your problem right there - 60% of gun deaths are suicides. Even considering the murders, and assuming all murders are due to availability of guns... you're still 4 times more likely to OD than to be murdered in this country. You're twice as likely to die in a car crash. And, those figures are AFTER we heavily regulate drugs and cars.

 

[Lagduf]

If we’re making a list can we get rid of the FISA court too? Secret judges, secret warrants, secret court.

Then

 

[Karou]

All of the security/surveillance policy from the last 30 years.The "no fly" list, "terror watch" lists, the TSA, the DHS, the REAL ID act, the PATRIOT ACT, all of it. It's all progress toward...

what I think about random disarmament that can happen to anyone and doesn't even need to have someone held responsible for it(*or more purposefully blame neighbors to create more division of citizenry) in a country that has propaganda legalised to be used on its citizens beside the quoted pile?

I think we are pretty far down the line away from what America is supposed to be like.

funny thing...it doesnt seem to matter what political party is in office we are getting strpped of rights progressively regardless.

being unhappy about being or realizing you under this system?? pretty sure that is already one of the red flags ..soo yeah we are all set

 

[Heinz]

Did someone say Red Stripe? Don't mind if I do

 

[lithy]

If we’re making a list can we get rid of the FISA court too? Secret judges, secret warrants, secret court.

Then

Then what? Then what, man?!?

Did you just get whisked away to a black site mid-post?

I accidentally your whole post. Is that safe?

 

[smokehouse]

All of the security/surveillance policy from the last 30 years is useless. The "no fly" list, "terror watch" lists, the TSA, the DHS, the REAL ID act, the PATRIOT ACT, all of it. It's a massive money-pit driven by innumeracy and panic. We get essentially no value out of the tax dollars spent there.

If the enemy has fission warheads aboard stealth bombers, defense spending makes sense. There's serious value in preempting that enemy. If the enemy can't even figure out how their bootleg rocket launchers work, you're just wasting money trying to "stop" them. It would be far better to spend the money somewhere else and just eat the occasional attack.

Unfortunately, terrorism is very, very effective. One lunatic puts half a bomb in his shoe, and 350 million people have to get barefoot at the airport. Our political system doesn't handle risk analysis.

This is the same reason I'm apathetic about gun laws. If you don't want to get shot, don't buy a gun. That's more than half of your problem right there - 60% of gun deaths are suicides. Even considering the murders, and assuming all murders are due to availability of guns... you're still 4 times more likely to OD than to be murdered in this country. You're twice as likely to die in a car crash. And, those figures are AFTER we heavily regulate drugs and cars.

There's always 500' deep water under politicians surface level claims...like Lag mentioning the use of "common sense" or making a broad statement like "We'll use the no-fly list as a base for denying firearm rights"...

It is not difficult to find yourself on some kind of watch list...and thanks to things like the Patriot act, what qualifies one for being labeled a terrorist is very vague and broad.

Even tying firearm rights to "mental health" is vague and broad and its something that politicians pushing such a thing as a "red flag" laws cannot accurately answer, because its is so subjective.

It's not based on criminal acts...its based on possible criminal acts, which are near impossible to guess on a consistent basis.


Either way...I get what you are saying about the entire domestic terrorist issue. We were discussing this in class not too long ago and I told them that finding US citizens hellbent on harming others is like taking 300 million marbles, badly scratching about 10,000 of them, and then putting them in a dumpster, and then trying to find them.

...oh, and a couple of the marbles are cracked in half...those three are the real bad ones, you need to find those.

 

[evil wasabi]

I accidentally your whole post.

 

[lithy]

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-accidentally

 

[norton9478]

"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply. They take lots of shit (including you) without proof or conviction.

Due process is not subverted as any order has to be signed by a judge and there is legal recourse for reinstationing.

God forbid someone loses their guns for a few weeks while shit gets sorted out. It ain't like your car got taken away, or your house or your kids.
-They are just tools.. Am I rite???


And finally, what do you guys do for someone who owns guns and tells everyone how he would like to shoot up a public place?

 

[smokehouse]

"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply. They take lots of shit (including you) without proof or conviction.

Due process is not subverted as any order has to be signed by a judge and there is legal recourse for reinstationing.

God forbid someone loses their guns for a few weeks while shit gets sorted out. It ain't like your car got taken away, or your house or your kids.
-They are just tools.. Am I rite???


And finally, what do you guys do for someone who owns guns and tells everyone how he would like to shoot up a public place?

Try to remove your feelings from this one. You feel passionately about this one and have long been prejudice against firearm owners, good for you.

This is law, plain and simple. Not feelings, not personal opinions, law...and we do have ever eroding constitutional rights here...

Has the person done anything illegal? It's yes or no...not "Well...he might do something, he sure sounds like he may."

Your "signed by a judge" is an absurd BS line used by people who push this crap to make it sound like it is not circumventing due process...which it is.

Red-Flag laws are someone losing a privilege they currently have, by legal force, based on an accusation. Simple question, is this a penalty or punishment? Remove firearm from the topic...make it anything you like. Your driver's license, your kid, anything. Does this seem like something that should be legal? They're taking by force an item you legally own and then placing the proof that you're not violent at your feet if you want it back. Your smug comment of "and there is legal recourse for reinstationing" is complete trash. I hope you're never on the receiving end of such legal horse shit.

Plain and simple, people can lose their legal right to something based solely on a claim of a possible occurrence of an illegal act from a 3d party. This is in no way due process, not by a long shot. Politicians are known for passing unconstitutional laws and letting the courts sort it out slowly in time while they get their way...this one is no exception.

 

[norton9478]

I'm the one whom is actually detaching myself and my personal feelings from the situation here.

The only thing I am passionate about is making a constructive concrete argument (or deconstructing a shitty one_).

 

[smokehouse]

I'm the one whom is actually detaching myself and my personal feelings from the situation here.

The only thing I am passionate about is making a constructive concrete argument (or deconstructing a shitty one_).

Sure...yeah, your initial reply was completely free of emotion or cynicism...not a drop to be found.




You've made your views on this topic crystal clear elsewhere, fella...don't act all middle-of-the-road about it now...

 

[evil wasabi]

Sure...yeah, your initial reply was completely free of emotion or cynicism...not a drop to be found.




You've made your views on this topic crystal clear elsewhere, fella...don't act all middle-of-the-road about it now...

Norton is right. What do you do for the guy who says he is going to shoot up a school filled with children? Do you sit back and say “well gotta hear both sides, I guess.”?

Does the hypo work better if your daughter is a student at that school?

This is akin to the person who makes a bomb joke at airport security. Chances are he or she will get a full cavity search and interview. But did they do anything wrong?

 

[Karou]

Norton is right. What do you do for the guy who says he is going to shoot up a school filled with children? Do you sit back and say “well gotta hear both sides, I guess.”?

Does the hypo work better if your daughter is a student at that school?

i'm not a lawyer, but you are...so what action would be taken before these laws? would the suspect actually have been more likely or less to end up in custody? I am not a pschologist either so who can answer why the suspect wouldnt find a different method if they had acrually reached the point of suicide(assumed from ...)...wouldnt they be more motivated after being ''provoked''

I don't think disarming anyone who was actually going to do something is going to difuse anything?

 

[evil wasabi]

When you say diffuse, you imply that the threat is imminent, in which case a more appropriate action is a restraining order, or at the very least, police intervention. If someone has their guns taken away it’s much more difficult for them to kill you or anyone else. Even John Wick would agree, squeezing a trigger requires less muscles than inserting a pencil into the head of a living human.

 

[Craig]

Seems like a good way for ex-wives to get back at someone...

Or kinda like how swatting works.

easy way to grief someone.

 

[evil wasabi]

Seems like a good way for ex-wives to get back at someone...

Or kinda like how swatting works.

easy way to grief someone.

It becomes problematic if your wife accuses you and then cannot prove it though. Keep in mind that there are elements of defamation here.

An untrue statement is made publicly
A third party hears and believes it
You experience injury or harm (financial or property included)

The law is fine, and the fallout of people trying to game the system should be fantastically self destructive, especially if kids are involved and their parents are forced to pay.