NG.com Gun Control Discussion

[evil wasabi]

hey America, terrorist are using your lax gun buying laws to commit terrorism on our home front.

This seems to be escaping people's consciousness. All I've been seeing are hundreds of reposting of this:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed

Great debate, guy. I heard with every one of these shootings, gun and ammo sales spike. A friend of mine commented that more people posted about a strung out depressed former rock star dying than having an opinion (either way) about the shootings in the US, gun control, and other important issues that we seem to be numb about as we go about our daily lives.

Shouldn't you be more interested in no fly restrictions being legislated right now against people of Syrian descent?

Priorities bruh.

 

[norton9478]

Nope. Can't have your cake and eat it too, buckaroo.

Either suicide is one's choice/right and what tool they use is irrelevant, or is is not their choice and you get to use those numbers in your argument for banning/regulating firearms due to firearm deaths (because, this is what that data is being use for).

Either abortion is one's choice, or we get to use those number's as infant mortality-by-knife data.

I don't think that either should be illegal (within limits). You shouldn't be arrested for attempting suicide. But that doesn't have anything to do with what we were talking about. Whether or not it is a personal choice doesn't mean that it isn't a health issue.

The only relevant firearm violence data pool for discussion is those killed/shot by them that do not want to be killed by them. Someone eating a lead salad vs someone being shot by another human being is 100% apples and oranges.

I would say suicide (a preventable death) as a health issue is relevant to those who:
1. Have a family member who dies in such a matter
2. Health Professionals treating victims of suicide.
3. Mental Health professionals who work with persons prone to suicide.

Not only that, but suicide by firearm is a horrible way to go. It leaves a fucking nasty mess.

And remember two things.
1. A firearm increases the chances of a successful suicide.
2. Access to a firearm slightly increases the chance that someone will attempt suicide.

 

[Jibbajaba]

Blaming suicide on guns is a bit of a stretch.

 

[norton9478]

Blaming suicide on guns is a bit of a stretch.

What do you mean "Blame"?
Who is "blaming" guns?

But the statistics are what they are.

 

[ki_atsushi]

Suicide is important from a health issue perspective.

Being that suicide is a preventable death. 20,000 (firearm related) deaths a year.

A good number of them people who are under the age of 20. People whose frontal lobes aren't fully developed yet. And a leading (second/third) cause of death among that age group.

And the biggest part of it is that access to a firearm not only makes for a more successful suicide, but increases the chances of attempting suicide. Being that suicide is often an impulsive act (especially among younger crowds).

So yeah, that is why people talk about guns and suicide.

You can be like my neighbor and just hang yourself from a beam in your garage... so what does it matter how you choose to kill yourself?

Leave guns out of this, they're just a tool.

 

[norton9478]

You can be like my neighbor and just hang yourself from a beam in your garage... so what does it matter how you choose to kill yourself?

Because method matters.
Because access to guns increase the likelihood of a successful suicide attempt.
Because access to guns increase the likelihood of making an attempt.

And as a public health issue, these preventable deaths are worth looking at.

On a personal level, if you choose to own a gun you should keep in mind that it will increase the likelihood of a member of your household committing suicide.

If you were selling a gun, would you sell one to someone who says "Yeah, I want to take it home, climb in my bathtub (how thoughtful!) and bust a cap in my skull?"

 

[ki_atsushi]

If you were selling a gun, would you sell one to someone who says "Yeah, I want to take it home, climb in my bathtub (how thoughtful!) and bust a cap in my skull?"

That person would just slit their wrists in said bathtub if they really wanted to kill themselves and didn't have access to a gun.

 

[norton9478]

That person would just slit their wrists in said bathtub if they really wanted to kill themselves and didn't have access to a gun.

So you are saying you would sell them the gun?

Anyways, the lethaltity of slit wrist is very, very very low.
the Lethality of a gunshot wound to the head is very, very high.

The chances of them surviving the gunshot wound the head is about the same as dying from the slit wrists.

And in the case of impulsive suicide, access to a gun really increases the chance of making an attempt.

 

[DNSDies]

guns are probably the worst most popular way to suicide.

1) Unless you use a shotgun, it's very easy to fuck it up and just maim or paralyze yourself
2) It's expensive. Minimum $250-300 entry point
3) It's messy

Any suicide advocate will recommend instead going for an exit bag and a tank of nitrogen or helium gas.
It's easy to do, painless, and costs about $75-100 at the worst. Less if you already have a face mask, medical tubing, and a pressure regulator.

 

[StevenK]

I hope I never have to think about the financial impact of my method of exit should I come to killing myself. Surely you could just stick a few hundred dollars on credit card, it's not like they're going to come chasing you for it.

 

[nug]

So you are saying you would sell them the gun?

Anyways, the lethaltity of slit wrist is very, very very low.
the Lethality of a gunshot wound to the head is very, very high.

The chances of them surviving the gunshot wound the head is about the same as dying from the slit wrists.

And in the case of impulsive suicide, access to a gun really increases the chance of making an attempt.

Your arguments for including suicides in the statistics is inferring that people don't know better and need the government to tell them what to do. This fundamentally challenges what are country was founded on.

 

[evil wasabi]

Your arguments for including suicides in the statistics is inferring that people don't know better and need the government to tell them what to do. This fundamentally challenges what are country was founded on.

It means he is anti-Jeffersonian. He's Hamiltonian.

 

[Kristian Meller]

Leave guns out of this, they're just a tool.

For killing people easily.

 

[norton9478]

Your arguments for including suicides in the statistics is inferring that people don't know better and need the government to tell them what to do. .

How do you get that?

I'm just saying it is what it is.

 

[StevenK]

How do you get that?

I'm just saying it is what it is.

I think the point he is making is that gun death figures usually include what might be termed 'negative' deaths - homicide, accidents, and suicides. They leave out deaths that were supposed to happen, i.e. police shooting people (obviously this is a whole other can of worms).

By including suicide you are saying they were wrong to do it, which is open to debate. That's all.

 

[evil wasabi]

I think the point he is making is that gun death figures usually include what might be termed 'negative' deaths - homicide, accidents, and suicides. They leave out deaths that were supposed to happen, i.e. police shooting people (obviously this is a whole other can of worms).

By including suicide you are saying they were wrong to do it, which is open to debate. That's all.

Police shooting people would fall under felony murder, where the criminal that instigated the police into shooting would be blamed.

But I get the point that the numbers include some data which should be removed.

This doesn't change the fact that guns are used to kill people,

Or that guns are used to defend people

Or that we have lost a lot of trust in our police departments

Or that people in countries outside the USA judging and commenting on things inside the USA only reinforce the stance that foreigners need to focus on their own problems.

 

[LoneSage]

Or that people in countries outside the USA judging and commenting on things inside the USA only reinforce the stance that foreigners need to focus on their own problems.

i am so disappointed in how defensive you are about this

 

[smokehouse]

My point is this.

Those wanting to ban or heavily regulate firearms use the term "gun violence". Don't believe me....here:

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/24/9183525/gun-violence-statistics (protip, read chart #9)

http://www.bradycampaign.org/key-gun-violence-statistics

https://www.barackobama.com/gun-violence-prevention/

They love to use this term again, and again, and again. They also love to claim that "Over 30,000" people die a year because of "gun violence".

So I looked it up...here's what the CDC says:

Homicide firearm: 11,208.

Well fuck, that's not 30K...so lets expand our term of "firearm violence" to include suicides...(again, love that good-old data pool manipulation). BAM! That nearly triples your total...now you can claim 30K+ die in firearm "violence" each year. 10K/year die of suffocation...yet that's not coined as violence...nope, just the firearms, because that's 66% of their claim.

In the end...all of this fighting, all of this talk, all of this complete and utter non stop bullshit is to save 11,000 lives (and even that is a stupid argument claiming that those lives would be saved 100% if firearms were just regulated). So, less than 10% of the 167K on that CDC list are killed each year by firearm homicide. A list that when combined represents less than .5%of the total populace.

So...in short, 10% of .5% of total US citizens are killed in firearm homicide each year. All of this bitching and moaning is about that number.

Got it. We may save .05%of the US population is we pass more "common sense" gun laws. I can see where all of this fighting is well worth it.

 

[evil wasabi]

i am so disappointed in how defensive you are about this

It doesn't matter. This is not about guns but about Kristan Meller thinking he has any value to add on any subject in the USA, whether guns, politics, or basketball.

 

[roker]

It doesn't matter. This is not about guns but about Kristan Meller thinking he has any value to add on any subject in the USA, whether guns, politics, or basketball.

It's more than Mr. Meller, it's plenty of people. It's like a whole culture of people that have spent the last 30-40 years talking about how "stupid" and violent Americans are. It gets annoying to travel sometimes and hear about that. It's all people really know about the US besides our movies, music, and products.

 

[norton9478]

My point is this.

Those wanting to.... heavily regulate firearms.

That would be you.

I've been lurking...and lurking some more. Been thinking on an honest to god way these things can be handled.

I strongly doubt this will make everyone happy...but I really think it would be the best way to handle things.

First step...politicians/media need to stop publicly attacking firearm owners. Attack any group and see how they respond. The first step to this is to diffuse the entire situation.

Second step...remove all current federal firearm classifications and "bans" on those items. Full auto, SBR, SBS, silencer, whatever...remove them all, make them all legal again.

Third, reclassify firearms in sub groups. Rifles, pistols, shotguns, military...(that's only a simple example)

Create a national registry for these things (yes, sorry fellow gun guys...but there's already one for NFA items, it's nothing new).

Fourth, like a drivers license, require training for levels of licenses. Vehicles have a standards license, CDL, motorcycle...why can't firearms? There's no limitation on horsepower, just basic limitations on vehicle size/type for each category. You want a basic license for a basic firearm? Sure. You want one for a military style firearm? Sure thing...you just have to take more training and have a different license.

Heavily regulate firearm transfers...no more person to person. Each item is tied to its owner so legal to illegal black market sales would at least lead you to the person who did it. Make people maintain licenses. There are a ton of licensed people who can use/buy explosives in this country. They are required to take extensive training for this. Even though they have plenty of access to items easily allowing them to perform another Oklahoma City bombing...they don't.


I know none of this is perfect...but banning items just doesn't work. Feature bans do not work. Treating firearm owners like idiots, trash, or potential/future murders is not working. Stop banning items, stop automatically treating everyone like a fucking idiot. Give the the opportunity to prove they're not. (BTW...Once you're 18 you can legally start smoking, something that kills 400,000+/yr. Once you're 16, you can go buy a 700+ horsepower car (if you have the $$), 40,000 people will die in cars each year. Once you're 21, you can legally drink alcohol, 10,000+ are killed by DUI each year.)

I fully agree that there is no current way to control the current firearm situation in the US...not as it stands, at least. Social media prejudice towards firearm owners and feel-good feature bans won't help.

 

[evil wasabi]

It's more than Mr. Meller, it's plenty of people. It's like a whole culture of people that have spent the last 30-40 years talking about how "stupid" and violent Americans are. It gets annoying to travel sometimes and hear about that. It's all people really know about the US besides our movies, music, and products.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a Brazilian girl who lamented that her country only exports an image of porn and favela crime.

 

[norton9478]

It's more than Mr. Meller, it's plenty of people. It's like a whole culture of people that have spent the last 30-40 years talking about how "stupid" and violent Americans are. It gets annoying to travel sometimes and hear about that. It's all people really know about the US besides our movies, music, and products.

That is also true for many people who have never left the US.

As violent crime has plummeted in the US, our perception of it has increased.

 

[hyper]

It's more than Mr. Meller, it's plenty of people. It's like a whole culture of people that have spent the last 30-40 years talking about how "stupid" and violent Americans are. It gets annoying to travel sometimes and hear about that. It's all people really know about the US besides our movies, music, and products.

who cares

 

[roker]

who cares

your mom?

We're just chatting, brah

why the microagression?