What's this about a black kid being shot again

[StevenK]

Was the cop within his rights to shoot.... yes. Did he have to unload 12 shots to settle this..... NO! That's the problem. That's why people are marching. That's why battle lines are being drawn. Both sides (citizens and cops) see this case as a possible nightmare for what cops are allowed to do going forward.

Perhaps maybe 1% of the people smashing shit up think this way. I can guarantee the other 99% are doing it for no more grandiose a reason than they think they might be able to get away with shoving a tv down their pants.

 

[Marek]

It's been too long since I've read that link...so I had to go back and read it. The absurd article was stating that it was easier to get a job as a white man-with a felony than as a black man without one...and that's simply bullshit.

I will say you're right...I'm not a "wing" anything...right or left. Like I said earlier, all I can do is base my perception of reality off of my reality. I came out of the gate pretty much a blank slate. My disdain for those sucked into the system came from what I learned after living in the world on my own. There are so many ignorant human beings out there...sadly, they feel like they know the truth, but they simply don't.

The origin of my point was that racism is not what the media makes it out to be. In my 37 years on this planet, I've seen few real instances of true blue racism...and I mean few. 99% of the time it's simply the easy shot to take so someone takes it. Calling someone of a different color a racial slur is quick and easy, that's why so many go right for it if there's a heated argument. Real racism however? Bullshit. It exists but I've yet to personally know a real, honest racist.

Funny enough, I've heard more racist and bigoted remarks come from the mouths of law enforcement officers than anyone else. Then again...they're the ones that have to deal with human trash for a living, perhaps that's why.

I hear you.

I must have misread the article myself but I suspect that in in Tennessee many times it is easier for a white felon with high school education to get a job than a black man without a criminal record and of equivalent education. This is where people say "well that's mighty white of you!!" As a way to say "thanks". Loads of people wouldn't hire a black man for any reason.

I'm not sure what the media makes racism out to be. But growing up in Tennessee and Georgia amongst a truly diverse range of neighborhoods and people of all socioeconomic positions I am hear to tell you that racism in the very traditional fashion is still alive and well in the south.

I don't know fuck all about the Midwest. But I'm gonna have to tell you that you don't know shit about where I grew up, based on the positions you're holding on to. Its anecdotal, sure, but I know that I'm correct about the Southeast.

Your bit about cops is true. But most of them had no love for brown people to begin with.

 

[smokehouse]

I hear you.

I must have misread the article myself but I suspect that in in Tennessee many times it is likely easier for a white felon with high school education to get a job than a black man without a criminal record and of equivalent education. This is where people say "well that's mighty white of you!!" As a way to say "thanks". Loads of people wouldn't hire a black man for any reason.

I'm not sure what the media makes racism out to be. But growing up in Tennessee and Georgia amongst a truly diverse range of neighborhoods and people of all socioeconomic positions I am hear to tell you that racism in the very traditional fashion is still alive and well in the south.

I don't know fuck all about the Midwest. But I'm gonna have to tell you that you don't know shit about where I grew up, based on the positions you're holding on to. Its anecdotal, sure, but I know that I'm correct about the Southeast.

Your bit about cops is true. But most of them had no love for brown people to begin with.

Like we keep going back to, all we can do is take what we see around us to form our mild conception of reality.

I live in central Illinois...I have State Farm's world HQ, Caterpillar's world HQ and three major hospitals, including a major children's hospital in my backyard. All joking aside, this is a very culturally diverse area. Ethnic group of all types are represented here, and many of them hold very good jobs. I know many people that work at Cat and I can easily tell you...if you're a black man with a college degree...you can definitely find employment there. If you have a felony...don't even bother applying.

With that said...I spent a month working down in Thomasville Georgia a few years back and truth be told, what I saw down there was appalling. The "black subservient" attitude was everywhere. I about shit my pants the first time I had a black man call me "boss" as in "yessir boss...Ill be right on that for ya". The attitude of black folks down there really is one of whipped dog and it was shocking. I really believe that racism is alive and well down there. If the other southern states reflect that, it is truly sad. I can say 100% that it is not like that were I live.

There are impoverished black neighborhoods here...but there is also a large, poor Latino community as well as a white-trash'ville in a neighboring town. So we have all types.

As an electrical tradesman...I can say we have a major problem getting minorities to apply...and I'm serious. Our trade will always take a minimum of 10% of minorities IF there are any qualified applicants...or any damn applicants at all. Earlier, I was talking of jobs with minority ratios on them. These pose a MAJOR problem for us because there simply isn't 10% to find anywhere. Last job we did of this nature, we had to look to either Chicago or St. Louis to properly staff our jobs.

On a side note, I'm directly involved with our apprenticeship and I am often trying to get them to seed local low income schools. Our trade is a 3-year program that is nationally recognized (JATC), it is actual college credit hours and with an English class, counts ass an associated degree. All the apprentice has to pay for is books. It's a great opportunity and stepping stone for low income folks. I'm proof of that, I couldn't afford college...

 

[evil wasabi]

To avoid this kind of tragedy from happening again, cops should all have to have cameras on their persons, to record the events that they are involved in. Traffic stops, dui stops, etc - those affect any race. The benefits are clear.

I have seen a lot of police brutality in Baltimore, which has the most racist shit head cops in the country. I mean to the point that they are the criminals - and there's no way to stop them as court cases against the police always fall flat for lack of evidence.

Something needs to change. Cameras would be a good start.

 

[smokehouse]

To avoid this kind of tragedy from happening again, cops should all have to have cameras on their persons, to record the events that they are involved in. Traffic stops, dui stops, etc - those affect any race. The benefits are clear.

I have seen a lot of police brutality in Baltimore, which has the most racist shit head cops in the country. I mean to the point that they are the criminals - and there's no way to stop them as court cases against the police always fall flat for lack of evidence.

Something needs to change. Cameras would be a good start.

I couldn't agree more with what you said...

While you can never fully fix crooked cops...on person cameras will stop a situation like the one in this topic in its tracks. either the video would back up the cop and show the kid to be the aggressor...or show that he really was a murder victim. All on tape, for everyone to see.

 

[norton9478]

It's been too long since I've read that link...so I had to go back and read it. The absurd article was stating that it was easier to get a job as a white man-with a felony than as a black man without one...and that's simply bullshit.

Actually, it was a job interview. But it isn't bullshit. It is a study that is easily replicable (and has been replicated).

The origin of my point was that racism is not what the media makes it out to be. In my 37 years on this planet, I've seen few real instances of true blue racism...and I mean few. 99% of the time it's simply the easy shot to take so someone takes it. Calling someone of a different color a racial slur is quick and easy, that's why so many go right for it if there's a heated argument. Real racism however? Bullshit. It exists but I've yet to personally know a real, honest racist.

Yes, issues of "True Blue Racism" are rare. But we have what is called institutional racism. If you look at any issue (take for instance the shooting of Oscar Grant, Micheal Brown or Travon Martin), you can't definitely say this is racism. But if you look at all of them you can't deny that something is going on. Or take for example the job interview thing. If you look at it on a case by case basis, it is easy to come up with an excuse of why this person wasn't picked and this person was. But if you look at them as a whole, something fucked up is going on.

A part of the problem is that you are also right in that "racism is not what the media makes it out to be". In the media world, it is a case of YES or NO. But in reality, it is a case of many, many many maybes.

 

[norton9478]

As an electrical tradesman...I can say we have a major problem getting minorities to apply...and I'm serious. Our trade will always take a minimum of 10% of minorities IF there are any qualified applicants...or any damn applicants at all. Earlier, I was talking of jobs with minority ratios on them. These pose a MAJOR problem for us because there simply isn't 10% to find anywhere. Last job we did of this nature, we had to look to either Chicago or St. Louis to properly staff our jobs.

On a side note, I'm directly involved with our apprenticeship and I am often trying to get them to seed local low income schools. Our trade is a 3-year program that is nationally recognized (JATC), it is actual college credit hours and with an English class, counts ass an associated degree. All the apprentice has to pay for is books. It's a great opportunity and stepping stone for low income folks. I'm proof of that, I couldn't afford college...

But you do recognize that it is very good for the trade/profession to get more minorities involved?

The one thing the various trades have is that they have such a bad rap from the old days when getting an apprenticeship was next to impossible unless you had realtiveS in the union already. A lot of people won't even bother to consider it as a career because they were always told by older people "Ohh don't bother unless you know somebody".

 

[Marek]

Posting from phone in the airport so managing these mega quotes is to tedious.

Smoker I think we've reached common ground though I am inclined to trust peer reviewed statistical proof from academia so long as I trust the source. Look what happens when peer review is skipped. Remember the big expose on the main study, from U of Chicago, used to justify austerity world wide? A grad student sunk it statistically and lo, it had been intentionally shielded from peer review.

That to me is the beauty of academia. Is it a stagnant cesspool of bullshit and pay to play useless degrees? Sometimes. But when a PhD student can topple one of the most flawed (possibly to the point of criminally) studies ever created to oppress humans worldwide - there is hope.

Anyway. This has been a nice chat, with full on serious replies from wasabi to boot!

 

[NeoSneth]

The thing that I thought was interesting is that all those people out for a bit of ultra violence must have been saving their sick time at work to take those days off.

Over 50% of the black males in that area are on unemployment or welfare. They have all the time in the world.

 

[Ninjainspandex]

Was the cop within his rights to shoot.... yes. Did he have to unload 12 shots to settle this..... NO! That's the problem.

Have you ever been in a situation where you had to fight for your life and defend yourself? Your primal fight or flight response just kicks in and your no longer really in control of your actions, you don't just think I'm going to just put one or two bullets into the assailant, its not uncommon for people who defend with a handgun to fire off the entire mag and just keep pulling the trigger even though there are no more bullets in the gun and not even realize it. This is actually why shooting stance training has changed, police used to train with that classic staggered stance firing position but they found out when the officers are in actual danger all that training just goes out the window and they assumed a more squat square stance, it's just instinct. So now they train police to shoot that way so they are more accurate.

 

[NeoSneth]

There is no difference between 1 and 12 shots. That's not a problem.

 

[norton9478]

kid (Trayvon's parents even went so far as to shamelessly release photos of him at 13, not 17), when in fact they were both basically grown men that were bigger and stronger than their killers.

Actually, the photo released by the family was 7 months old. The 5 year old photo claim comes from the racist corners of the internet, the same ones that compared it to a picture of a DIFFERENT travon martin.

But this is a common issue prevalent in white society.
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

The students were also shown photographs alongside descriptions of various crimes and asked to assess the age and innocence of white, black or Latino boys ages 10 to 17. The students overestimated the age of blacks by an average of 4.5 years

 

[norton9478]

There is no difference between 1 and 12 shots. That's not a problem.

Because of the timeline of events, it does matter.

The first and second shots took place in a close situation.
Shots 3-12 took place in a different situation under different circumstances.

 

[NeoSneth]

Because of the timeline of events, it does matter.

The first and second shots took place in a close situation.
Shots 3-12 took place in a different situation under different circumstances.

Still doesnt matter. Grand Jury said so, and that's all that can be done outside of a Civil case.

 

[hyper]

just saw the interview. seems pretty straight forward, legit, text book, in policy, whatever.. lost interest in this dantes inferno, three ring circus & I'm pretty sure stuff like this happens every day somewhere in the country. I'm amazed at how easily people can be whipped up into blind rage over imaginary perceived injustices. The solution to the madness?

Spoiler:

get a job

 

[norton9478]

Still doesnt matter.

It matters to me.

Maybe not to the law, the jury or anyone else. But it does to me.

 

[SpamYouToDeath]

Somebody got shot! Time to burn down Little Caesars.

 

[smokehouse]

But this is a common issue prevalent in white society.
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

"white society" huh? That's a pretty shitty remark on your part. Enlighten me then...what's prevalent in black society?

It matters to me.

Maybe not to the law, the jury or anyone else. But it does to me.

Let me get this straight...

You, someone who had zero connection to this, who wasn't there during the shooting, and who was not present at the court sessions, think something else happened than what was recorded?

No offense...but what you think is irrelevant in this situation...

 

[smokehouse]

Somebody got shot! Time to burn down McDonald's.

Fixed

 

[Lemony Vengeance]

Much truth to this. I thought because I had a degree and some experience, I was ready for my field. Everything I did before hand was bush league. This quote holds true especially for white people that study black American studies. I had a 19 year old white girl tell ME that she knew more about my people's struggles than me; she knows what being black is all about. If I was still at home at that time, I would have taken her to the worst parts of town to give her a taste of what she THINKS she knows.

I lived in southeast DC for a while.. being the only white boy in a 5 mile radius was eye opening, but I will never ever tell anyone I know the struggle, because I don't.

 

[ki_atsushi]

Actually, the photo released by the family was 7 months old. The 5 year old photo claim comes from the racist corners of the internet, the same ones that compared it to a picture of a DIFFERENT travon martin.

But this is a common issue prevalent in white society.
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

I never saw those fake photos you're talking about, but your link does have exactly the ones I was talking about:

This was the one all over the TV:


Where he looks years younger than he was in this photo:


?

 

[evil wasabi]

Let me get this straight...



You, someone who had zero connection to this, who wasn't there during the shooting, and who was not present at the court sessions, think something else happened than what was recorded?



No offense...but what you think is irrelevant in this situation...

Welcome to norton's fucked up perception of life.

 

[norton9478]

Photos look about the same to me Just one is professional head shot, the other a more casual one. You are a photographer, you know the difference the two settings and after-effects can have on the presentation.

Let me get this straight...

You, someone who had zero connection to this, who wasn't there during the shooting, and who was not present at the court sessions, think something else happened than what was recorded?

No offense...but what you think is irrelevant in this situation...

That goes for everybody else here... Then when is this topic 7 pages (at furthers setting)?

But anyways, shots 1+2 may be justified, but 3-12 not. You are a cc holder. You have been through the classes. You know that you can't shoot someone once the situation changes.

 

[smokehouse]

Welcome to norton's fucked up perception of life.

I'm not trying to be a dick to the guy...

All I can go off of is what I know. I KNOW this kid got shot, I KNOW the officer was assaulted, I KNOW a jury decided not to indict him and I KNOW a bunch of people rioted, looted and burnt a bunch of shit down. That's about all I know for sure. Everything else is just personal opinion and I think that thus far, I have separated the two in my posts in a clear fashion.

 

[norton9478]

I'm not trying to be a dick to the guy...

All I can go off of is what I know. I KNOW this kid got shot, I KNOW the officer was assaulted, I KNOW a jury decided not to indict him and I KNOW a bunch of people rioted, looted and burnt a bunch of shit down. That's about all I know for sure. Everything else is just personal opinion and I think that thus far, I have separated the two in my posts in a clear fashion.

The officer being "assaulted" doesn't matter (much). All that matters is what happened when the last 10 (actually final) shots were fired.

I just don't put the same faith in law enforcement as you do. You used to be my favorite cop hater. What happened?


PS:
I don't know how MO law works, but in NY, Micheal Brown wouldn't be guilty of assault/battery/etc. Slapping the shit out of a police officer isn't even a crime (though the obstruction'/resisting parts may be).