What makes a 2D fighter innovative and fun?

[Big Shady]

Hey folks, I'm asking for a little help here on a game I've been working on during my own personal time. I have played many 2D fighters since I got into gaming back in the 80's and it seems to me the peaked in the mid-90's. There are great 2D fighters that came out after '95 and on, but it has become pretty formulaic. Now the current independent game I am developing in my spare time I want to push the boundaries of current hardware to the max with large detailed sprites, extremely fluid aniamtion, and immersive 3D backgrounds.

Now, I have a bare bones engine in place that I've designed and partially coded. The engine really needs alot of work with fine tuning, but the skeleton is there, it can be used for a proto-type. I have contacts to artists that are interested and possibly could give time to the project if they felt it could be successful. For me, though, personally as a designer I don't want to be another run of the mill 2D fighter, ex: Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike is beautiful to watch and play, but its guts are still the same frome SF2 or SFA.

So I turn the fighting game community, who combined have played thousands, if not millions of hours with 2D fighters. I have already have so ideas kicking around, but I want to hear yours. I will hit up S-C.com and probably shyrouken.com too. Will my idea break from the indie dev status and turn into a full fledge game with a publisher? It's possible if I can get a solid proto-type and then a publisher to fund my venture, but first things first. I need a solid and unique concept to build on. So fire away, I'm all ears

EDIT: Just so you know I'm not blowing smoke your asses, I am a professional developer and I'm in the games industry. I'm not some fruit-cake hopeful/wannabe. So your input is much appreciated.

 

[norton9478]

Start over.

Play other games and see if you can come up with Ideas.


I think it would be cool if fighting games had a Megaman LIke slide.


YOu also can't go wrong with Stereotypical Charecters.

That's what's wrong with games today.

No Zangiefs or Piston Hondas.

 

[norton9478]

Have the background crowd get into the action.

Have some of them root for certain charecters.....

When He's kicking ass, they cheer. When He's getting his ass kicked, they become aprehensive. When someone does something cheep, they boo.

 

[roninbuddha]

boobs seem to sell well...

make sure you make the femal characters look "hot" yet "cool" ... that already makes it fun

as for the game engine... i dunno... how bout trying martial arts yourself, and getting inspiration from that... maybe you'll be able to formulate saomething unique

 

[JONESGFX]

I dont know if your interested, but aside from being a video game junkie.. I am striving to get in the industry artist. If your looking for any help 2d or 3d or idea's i'd love to be part of a team. i can't even imagine the hours i have spent playing fighting games, it would put wow addicts to shame. I have had a game im my mind for a long time that is different and i think would/could be awesome, im kinda of protective of it so i'd rather talk via email or irc , instant messenger about it.

here some things I have done, its not really up to date,, but its a quick idea. some are WIP's that never got finished or personal art / mod works.

http://www.brianyarborough.com/test/new/index.htm

 

[Takumaji]

JONESGFX, Your work looks really promising, I like the clean look of the tanks and speed boat a lot, reminds me of function schemes/illustrations in weapon handbooks... still, they're 3D models, 2D backs/artwork is a whole 'nother beast.

Thing is, producing games is dirty business. We had numerous discussions about video game innovation in the past, and it always turns out the same, most innovative titles or those where the makers put a lot of thought into don't even break even while the shabby license games (movie/sports licenses) sell like sliced bread, even tho they could not be farther away from innovative concepts. So don't get your hopes up too soon.

Here's a small idea for a fighting game I had a long time ago, give the characters a way to gain new moves and learn new tricks depending on experience points or even artefacts, like a mixture of RPG and fighting game elements. That's not really innovative per se (I guess it has been done before), but if done properly, a game like that may be attractive to more people than just hardcore versus fighter fans, and you even could add MMORPG-style online features or stuff like that. I'd still would put the focus on the actual 2D fighting itself, tho.

Nowadays it's important to do something for 1P-exclusive players as well. 2D fighters are better when played by two people, but this arcade-ish approach may be a problem to adapt to the general gaming habits of the 21st century. People want to play with others, but many of them prefer to go the online route, keep that in mind when conceiving a new game.

 

[El Capitan]

Some stuff I'd look for:

Innovative + Fun:
Attention grabbing graphical style (preferably not done before)

Innovative:
Music that reacts to the gameplay.
Maybe some close grapple work with a camera that zooms right into the action.

Fun:
Crazy special moves
Bright colours
Stereotype characters (wrestler, girlie, alien, evil genius, cool hero etc)
Slapstick moves (but don't overuse this)

 

[JONESGFX]

I miss read the post when it got to 3d backgrounds.

 

[YeldellGW]

Have the background crowd get into the action.

Have some of them root for certain charecters.....

When He's kicking ass, they cheer. When He's getting his ass kicked, they become aprehensive. When someone does something cheep, they boo.

Personally, I prefer backgrounds that are abandoned. Never cared about the whole tournament feel to be honest and some of my favorite fighters have nothing to do with fighting in a tournament.

 

[starman]

Well, I suppose it really depends on two things--whether you want your fighter to be popular amongst arcade crowds, or whether you want to make a game that'll push innovative boundaries.

If you want to make a fighter that'll sell, then it has to be tourney worthy, and it has to be pretty traditional. People who go play tourney-heavy fighting games say they want innovation and what not--this is a lie, what they really want is more of the same, only done really well. This is what Guilty Gear does well, and therefore it managed to break into a market that was mostly dominated by Capcom/SNK beforehand. People also appreciate "memorable" characters (whatever that means) and engaging graphics/music, but as seen by arcade games' sales, these are secondary--KOF sells because what it doesn't accomplish on an aesthetic level, it leverages by providing solid gameplay. A solid traditional fighter with appealing characters, nice music, decent graphics, and most importantly, tournament solid gameplay (meaning both highly varied amongst characters yet balanced), will sell like hot cakes (or as much as it can in a dying arcade market).

Innovation won't be appreciated by the arcade going crowd, and it probably won't be appreciated by most console gamers either. The only semi-innovative fighter in years (Smash Bros.) has managed to sell because HAL labs has the existing Nintendo liscense to work off of, and the appeal of having people's favorite characters duke it off, as well as the bazillions of other cameos and homeages that are tossed into the game, are what really sells SSB:M. Smash isn't even that innovative in itself--most of its ideas are from an old Namco game, Outfoxies (which was really innovative for its time, but probably didn't sell for shit in comparison to SF/KOF/etc).

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I figured tossing in my $.02 wouldn't hurt. If you want to have innovation in your games, it's not a great idea to turn the estabilished fighitng game system over on its head--adding small refinements and quirks to the gameplay, while maintaining a solid skelaton is what will make you stand out amongst the clones. Estabilshing yourself as a solid game developer might be more important than innovation right now--once that's through, then maybe you might be able to achieve that vision of a game you have in your head.

 

[Big Shady]

This is all very good input and definitely has my gears turning in my head. I am beginning to agree more and more, that to innovate, many small things will have to be changed to sum up to one large change.

 

[norton9478]

Instead of Offensive Super moves, how about some type of spellcasting.

Either make your charecter stronger/faster or make your oppenent slower/weaker for a limted time.

 

[complexs6]

Interesting thread, the thing that sucks is we are a MMOG world now. (Massive Multiplayer Online Game) So creating even the best fighting game will most likely prove to be not so popular but a mmog would be. I do agree that if its going to be a fighting game the story has to be good and not cheezy like Killer Instinct. (I still like the game though, lol.) I think if anything you need to incorporate mmog into it. I think it would be hard but its possible.

EX: Your a martial artist and your one of the best in your neighborhood but there is a Tournament held every year on an island (Enter the Dragon, anyone lol) and the best around the world come to complete to be the grand champion, but to get into the tournament you need to prove yourself and beat other people online around your town or neighborhood. But a nice catch would be being able to create your own character, moves, combos & ect and every character is different depending on how you make them out to be, style of fighting, height weight , ect. And you can get stronger through out the game because you should train before each match, jogging and running for example keep your endurance up or practicing on people or duffly bag brings up your strength or better yet your dexterity?

Keep in mind I am at work and this is coming from off the top of my head, lol so its just a concept.

 

[Xian Xi]

you got pm dude.

 

[Korigama]

Very interesting topic. Well, I'm working on a potential fighter myself, but my plans are a bit different. I'm a gaming journalist at this point, planning on becoming a game designer as well after graduating (which would involve the planning and writing for the game rather than programming or illustrating, though I intend to develop whatever talent that's there as an illustrator). What I'm working on is something that's much more comparable to the likes of Devil May Cry in regards to the main game, but includes a separate vs. fighter mode with completely different mechanics, essentially being 2.5D (3D character models and backgrounds, 2D gameplay). As for how I do things...


-One of the other posters pretty much summed up my approach to designing female characters: aesthetically pleasing, but cool at the same time. Interestingly enough, though, a good number of them manage this despite being mostly covered up (there's always the option of alternates for the sake of additional fan service, after all).

-In regards to the process of character design, I tend to stay far away from stereotypes, however, the style of my cast mainly inspired by SNK (not so much SNKP, more like KoF up until '00) rather than Capcom or Arc. Ironically, though, this all started as a hobby in which I came up with new characters for Guilty Gear for fun, with no intentions of planning out my own game until about a year ago (even then, the designs I did gave more of a KoF rather than GG impression).

-Have a lead character, but try not to make them too cliched (be it from either a design, gameplay or backstory standpoint). A rival wouldn't necessarily be a requirement.

-Whether doing the character designs alone or being assisted by others, having a varied cast while narrowing the focus will be vital to creating a cohesive vision (if your designs suggest Garou while the other guy's skew toward MK, there's a problem).

-Story, story...have one. Seriously, while it's not the most important factor, there has to be some form of motivation to keep players interested, something to help them become attached to the cast beyond the game itself (which can make your franchise even more profitable). So while you're still writing a design document, you want to more or less be writing a novel as well so as to help others get a feel for what you see.

-Make the game have style. It has to look cool, sound cool, and feel cool. Cast, soundtrack, locales, overall presentation, it all has to stand out (not in an overtly garish way, however).

-Be sure to vary the backgrounds. Crowds observing and reacting to the fight aren't of the utmost necessity (but you can include them here and there anyway), and in many cases, stages where everyone goes about their own business can work even better. Regardless, see to it that the settings are both detailed and inspiring.

-Try to avoid any unknown factors related to environmental damage (as in getting hit out of nowhere). It could be amusing at first, but the novelty will wear off pretty quickly.

-Also as mentioned, make sure to decide between going with something that would please arcade goers or fans of innovation. If you choose something that's more arcadey, then decide whether it would be more traditional vs. (SF, KoF) or more chaotic (GG, MvC). If going with traditional, I'd recommend not including air teching, as it really messes up the flow (especially if juggling is a factor). If considering something like parrying/just defend, you might want to consider limiting it to only one or two characters. Avoid including more than one "groove" (some people like that, but many wouldn't appreciate it, not to mention it only creates more balancing issues). As far as innovation goes in that type of fighter, breaking the mold isn't necessary, but coming up with a relatively new way of doing something already present in a way that hasn't been seen before should be enough (whatever it may be, it will be necessary to make players consider your fighter over other options).

-A functional, in-depth tutorial would also help. At the same time, however, it'll have to be fun for players to learn the basics. They won't be interested in bothering if they find it grating or boring, after all. Perhaps having one of the female cast members guide players through it, with voice overs accompanying the sections?

-Definitely consider online play. You could consider occasionally uploading various gameplay vids to motivate players as well.

-Choose your publisher wisely. It would probably be better to go with one of the major Japanese corporations than anyone else (much more likely to get international exposure for your work this way).

 

[Big Shady]

All excellent stuff. Definitely jotting this stuff down

I am going to take the approach of not trying to re-invent the wheel, but maybe add one new aspect to the 2D fighter, and make the rest very well polished.

Keep ideas coming if you got 'em. I appreciate all input.

 

[Korigama]

One more thing I could add:

In order to further assure success, make sure the scenario has widespread market appeal. While you don't want it to be too American, you don't necessarily want it to come off as too Japanese either (while having unfamiliar elements in terms of details related to the cast or setting is fine, you don't want there to be so many that anyone outside of a specific market wouldn't get it).

 

[BigFred]

Have the background crowd get into the action.

Have some of them root for certain charecters.....

When He's kicking ass, they cheer. When He's getting his ass kicked, they become aprehensive. When someone does something cheep, they boo.

Unfortunately this has all been done before in past Fatal Fury's. Innovation is not what people want. They want more of the same, something simple with maybe an added feature.

If you want to make a fighter that'll sell, then it has to be tourney worthy, and it has to be pretty traditional. People who go play tourney-heavy fighting games say they want innovation and what not--this is a lie, what they really want is more of the same, only done really well.

I couldn't agree more with this post.

What I would like to see
- Obviously you will have each character with different DM's or Supers etc. Try to make the DM's/supers unique as in - a new attack on it's own. DM's should look spectacular/damaging/powerful, but try to avoid making the character perform a combination attack which consists of series of special moves from his/her current movelist. Need an example of what I'm after? Geese's Raging storm, Yamazaki's DM, Duck King's Break Spiral, Ralf's Mounted Vulcan Punch. They are all new attacks and - for me it's more satisfying landing them.

- Music - I would like to hear some lyrics here, on at least some of the soundtracks. If appropriate of course.

... I'll add more to this later.

 

[YeldellGW]

What I would like to see
- Obviously you will have each character with different DM's or Supers etc. Try to make the DM's/supers unique as in - a new attack on it's own. DM's should look spectacular/damaging/powerful, but try to avoid making the character perform a combination attack which consists of series of special moves from his/her current movelist. Need an example of what I'm after? Geese's Raging storm, Yamazaki's DM, Duck King's Break Spiral, Ralf's Mounted Vulcan Punch. They are all new attacks and - for me it's more satisfying landing them.

Gee, I wonder what fighting game franchise that was a stab at.

Not that I haven't said the same thing myself.

Something I'd like to add to that...

If possible avoid having Supers freeze the game upon execution. This is something I always hated about most fighters and loved about the Vampire series. To add to that, no overblown eyecandy at the start either, such up close facial portraits or other nonsense.

But if you're into that stuff, disregard. Personally, I don't care for it.