The Comic Book Thread

[SouthtownKid]

You know that with Disney buying the company, they're gonna want things to go back to a status quo before too long.

I don't think Disney really has anything to do with it, since they said they're taking kind of a hands off approach to Marvel. Marvel always has a plan for getting out of things like Dark Reign, Cap's death, or Spidey's unmasking before they even begin them. Stories that change the status quo don't get approved without the writer including a return path in the proposal.

 

[Taiso]

I don't think Disney really has anything to do with it, since they said they're taking kind of a hands off approach to Marvel. Marvel always has a plan for getting out of things like Dark Reign, Cap's death, or Spidey's unmasking before they even begin them. Stories that change the status quo don't get approved without the writer including a return path in the proposal.

While it's possible you're totally right, and Disney has proven themselves champions of creative rights more often than not, I am still skeptical about just how 'hands off' they'll be. I'm not looking at it like the evil soul sell other fans are, but I am still fairly confident that when Disney takes over, they will want some more synergy between how they intend to market the product and what's going on between the comics.

And I am fully aware that they had plans to get out of Dark Reign and Cap's death if only because Dark Reign couldn't continue to be the MU forever and Cap's death was a Brubaker arc he had brewing long before Civil War came to be a reality (according to Brubaker), but he found a way to make the death tie in with Civil War and help serve the crossover arc.

But Spidey's unmasking and how they resolved that is something I'm a bit more skeptical about. There's a pretty sordid backstory behind the whole 'One More Day' storyline and as far as I can tell, that was never the plan for getting themselves out of it. Of course, they may haveHAD a more long term plan but ditched it early and went into full on damage control mode at that point and just trying to fix it as quickly as they could. I know JMS wasn't at all pleased with having to write 'One More Day' but did it due to his responsibilties and at Quesada's request. I may have a few of the details messed up there as I'm trying to recall it from memory without citing sources, but I'm fairly certain that was the gist of it.

 

[SouthtownKid]

But Spidey's unmasking and how they resolved that is something I'm a bit more skeptical about.

Trust me.

 

[OrochiEddie]

Yeah. But some of the reversions are good.

Spider-Man having a public identity was a bad idea from the get go.

And Civil War did lead to some events in Secret Invasion, which led to Dark Reign and that currently has the bad guys in control of everything.

My suspicion is that they can't change things too much because Marvel is a very marketing conscious company and they don't want to alter their characters for very long for that reason.

I'm still calling for Steve Rogers to eventually come back and lead the superheroes to complete victory and restore things to the way they were before Civil War.

You know that with Disney buying the company, they're gonna want things to go back to a status quo before too long.

I understand that, but I just think it is pointless to have big events in comics then since they all get returned to normal. I read them here and there because my friend is a huge Marvel fan and even he knows how silly it is. Magneto is repowered...again, and even he had to shake his head at how silly the gimmick is.

Honestly they need to be more ballsy with comic writing, take out some people, introduce some people, at least mess with the status quo. They had resolved the lack of Captain America just fine, but then they introduce...TIME BULLETS? I'd be so pissed if I was the guy who wrote civil war to see all the dynamic changes made be turded on like that. Civil War was something that was known by a lot of people because it shook everything up and caused some big changes, changes that were exciting. Un-masking Parker, but he got the Iron Man suit, Killing Cpt. America, and there was some other stuff too, but it all just got patched in the some of the most ridiculous ways possible. I see Marvel trying to be darker and more serious, but how can you take them seriously, when they are pretty blatant about being so safe about their characters?

 

[SouthtownKid]

I understand that, but I just think it is pointless to have big events in comics then since they all get returned to normal. I read them here and there because my friend is a huge Marvel fan and even he knows how silly it is. Magneto is repowered...again, and even he had to shake his head at how silly the gimmick is.

Honestly they need to be more ballsy with comic writing, take out some people, introduce some people, at least mess with the status quo. They had resolved the lack of Captain America just fine, but then they introduce...TIME BULLETS? I'd be so pissed if I was the guy who wrote civil war to see all the dynamic changes made be turded on like that. Civil War was something that was known by a lot of people because it shook everything up and caused some big changes, changes that were exciting. Un-masking Parker, but he got the Iron Man suit, Killing Cpt. America, and there was some other stuff too, but it all just got patched in the some of the most ridiculous ways possible. I see Marvel trying to be darker and more serious, but how can you take them seriously, when they are pretty blatant about being so safe about their characters?

The HAVE to be.

They make more money off merchandising and licensing of the characters than they do off the comic books. They have to be "safe" with the characters, or they'll cut off their own income. Marvel (and DC) comics have always been this way; it's nothing new.

The only difference is that when you are a younger reader, you can buy into the illusion. It's only when you've been reading comics longer that you start to notice how temporary any change is.

Examples: Who here remembers when Superman "died" and was replaced by 4 different characters back in the mid-'90s? Or when Wolverine lost his adamantium? Or when Bruce Wayne got crippled and someone else took over as Batman? Or Daredevil stated wearing that dumb looking armor? Or when Artemis took over as the "new" Wonder Woman? Or when Eric Masterson became Thor for about 4 years? Or Age of Apocalypse? Or Wen Reed died? Or Sue? Or Johnny? All temporary.

They're exiting if you read them when you're young enough, but if you've been around a while, you know better.

The people who wrote Civil War KNEW it was going to be changed back. They pitched the method they'd change it back with at the exact same summit they planned out Civil War to begin with. That is the way those things work.

Bottom line: You WOULDN'T be so pissed if you were the guy who wrote civil war to see all the dynamic changes made be turded on like that. Because YOU would have also been one of the guys helping "turd" on it.

 

[Taiso]

Examples: Who here remembers when Superman "died" and was replaced by 4 different characters back in the mid-'90s? Or when Wolverine lost his adamantium? Or when Bruce Wayne got crippled and someone else took over as Batman? Or Daredevil stated wearing that dumb looking armor? Or when Artemis took over as the "new" Wonder Woman? Or when Eric Masterson became Thor for about 4 years? Or Age of Apocalypse? Or Wen Reed died? Or Sue? Or Johnny? All temporary.

I was working at a comic store when Doomsday 'killed' Superman.

It was all over the media and everyone was reporting on it.

Even the local paper picked up the story.

A reporter came into the store where I worked and asked 'So what do you think about them killing Superman?'

I said, straight faced as I stocked the week's comics 'He'll be back.'

The reporter was very skeptical about it, acting as though this time it would be different because now that the MEDIA was involved, the story had some extra degree of credibility.

My quotes ran on the front page of the local rag the next day. My mother kept the paper because I was quoted in it.

Lo and behold, Superman has been back a while now and Doomsday is nowhere to be seen because he was a shit villain to begin with and nobody fucking cares about him.

I remember each and every one of the events you wrote about.

Ever since they brought back Jean Grey after Dark Phoenix, I long accepted that no death in comics is permanent.

They just brought back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, too.

That is just the way the canonical universes are. You have to accept the reversion to status quo, even if it takes 20 years....everything comes back.

If you want a universe with lasting changes, read the Ultimate Marvel Universe lineup, which is an alternate 'modernized' version of the Marvel Universe. Ultimatum recently killed off a fuckton of characters and I am still kinda shocked about it. But the comic cynic in me still doesn't believe they'll stay dead forever. It's just how it is.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

To be fair, the main premise of Civil War hasn't been taken back at all. The New Avengers are still a fugitive team of heroes, and Norman is calling the shots as a result of Secret Invasion (which I thought was the very definition of a lackluster 'big event' book, though I do like the idea of putting Norman in charge), which is a direct result of the events of Civil War.

Obviously there are exceptions, like unmasking Spidey then putting it right back on again, but for the most part, they've stuck to the main changes.

They're better than DC, who will routinely destroy decades of history and totally change everything repeatedly.

I still prefer DC these days anyways, but I'd have to say that Marvel does big events better, for what it's worth. They're still not as good as other smaller titles, though.

 

[Taiso]

Finally read all of the Loeb/Sale 'color' GNs:

Hulk: Gray
Spider-Man: Blue
Daredevil: Yellow

Of the three, I'd have to say that Spider-Man: Blue was my favorite. Hulk: Gray and Daredevil: Yellow are very well written and drawn and I really enjoyed them, but I didn't not have any emotional attachment to the characters and events in them. I felt solely like an observer enjoying well concieved events playing out before my eyes. This is not a bad thing at all, as I largely consume most of the comics I read in this fashion.

But Spider-Man: Blue connected with me on an emotional level. There was a different pace and feel to the events. Because the book had more emotional highs and lows, it was more of a roller coaster in the end than the other books. The events of Hulk: Gray and Daredevil: Yellow were somber in tone and somewhat cynical. This is not a criticism of the characters or their environments-the Hulk is a monster hunted by the government and Daredevil deals with the unfortunate realiity that the law and justice are not always the same thing. It's just serious fare.

Spider-Man: Blue is serious, but it is also equal parts fun, funny, moving and sad. Hulk: Gray and Daredevil: Yellow have their uplifting moments (Daredevil saying "Here comes Daredevil" as he runs over The Purple Man with a serving cart, for example), but they're by and large just more grim in tone.

I think another thing that helped Spider-Man: Blue rise above the other two for me was the fact that he faced a classic enemy in every issue/chapter, and Spidey has an incredibly fun and engaging rogues' gallery. It's always great to see them in the comics.

It's just so entertaining watching Pete try to juggle his real life responsibilities and desires with his need to fight crime. All of this is more astonishing when you consider that Spider-Man's reason for existence is primarily founded in guilt-he will never stop blaming himself for Uncle Ben's death (regardless of which writer is handling him at the time and how they choose to approach it), and that is pretty intense motivation.

By way of comparison, I am almost saddened by the fact that the Hulk's major enemy is the very same government that gives me a place to live and protects me. I have always felt a melancholy at reading the Hulk taking out tanks and helicopters and jets. Those things are U.S. government property and this is the country I live in. I don't want to see American defense equipment getting trashed by a character I am rooting for. I mean...I DO want to see it. It's just not a 'rah-rah' moment.

Daredevil's motivation is to see justice served, which carries its own ironic elements considering he is a lawyer in the regular world . That is material for powerful, mature storytelling. And Daredevil patrols Hell's Kitchen, a seedy part of New York where he 'sees' the worst and most conniving elements of humanity on a daily basis. If anyone had reason to doubt the power of the legal system, it would be Matt Murdock. As Daredevil, he breaks the very laws he tries to uphold as a civilian. It's quite compelling, but not always very much fun.

And the fun of Spider-Man: Blue, combined with all the other emotional elements SM: B covers, is what makes it tops for me. Each of the books is a very good representation of what makes the characters so compelling. Perhaps that is the reason we, as a culture, embrace Spider-Man so much more tightly than the Hulk or Daredevil. He's not a lawyer or a nuclear physicist. He's just a smart guy who went to a regular school like the rest of us, fell in love like the rest of us and has trouble making ends meet like the rest of us.

He just happens to also have super powers and a compulsion to use them for good.

Daredevil: Yellow had one of the most memorable parts of any of them, however. When he's fighting Electro, the captions narrate something to the effect of how 'super villains never used to kill innocent people', basically explainng that most of them were in it for personal gain and not necessarily the need to inflict pain on others. it was an interesting commentary on how comics have changed so much over the years. Ironic coming from the thoughts of Daredevil, whose comic book has one of the most well known super villain murders of all time (Bullseye killing Elektra.) I'm not calliing him out on that-I'm basically acknowledging that Daredevil himself knows that villains are always going to up the stakes and the heroes are always going to be forced to catch up.

All three are highly recommended.

On to Superman For All Seasons and Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt.

Haven't ever read Superman For All Seasons before and it's been a while since I read SM: KLH. After that, gonna devour the new Kodansha release of Akira volume one. Looking forward to it!

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Well then, you're in for a treat. I think Superman For All Seasons is by far the best work from Loeb and Sale. Enjoy.

 

[Taiso]

That is what I hear. I am looking forward to it. I just need to pound through last week's stack of Batman comics and it's Supes time.

 

[Taiso]

After much hype and prodding by fellow comic fans, I finally read the first collection of Fables. This is the 'Who Killed Rose Red?' arc.

I have to say that I found it a somewhat interesting read but don't understand all the excitement about it. I felt it was a perfectly compelling read as a crime drama without the need for all of the fairy tale stuff. It didn't detract from the story or hurt it or anything like that. I just didn't think it needed it for the crime drama aspect of the story. Willingham's ability to tell a detective yarn is underrated.

Willingham's take on what might happen to these fairy tale characters were they forced to adjust to an existence in the real world was compelling in the same way I anticipate the cameos in the Kingdom Hearts games. That is, I'm curious to see how the characters get introduced and what their personalities are in this re-imagined take on them, but once I've 'met' the characters, I quickly lose interest in them and in the events of their lives. That said, seeing how characters like Prince Charming, Jack from Jack and the Beanstalk, the Big Bad Wolf and Snow White turned out were all great fun.

But I don't think this modern world take on the fairy tale characters is enough to keep me involved. I'll take a pass and look for something that grabs me more.

Actually, there is ONE character whose appearance compels me to want to know more and that is the pig from Three Little Pigs. Him showing up at Bibgy's apartment and then sneaking into the Rememberance Day event and also sleeping outside Bigby's apartment all seemed funny and ironic. First the Big Bad Wolf wanted into the Pig's house. Now it's the other way around. I would like to know where this all ends up going. I think them living together would be pretty hilarious, but given the dark turns this book can take, it wouldn't at all surprise me if somewhere down the road, they DO end up moving in together and Bigby ends up eating him in a relapse to old ways.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

After much hype and prodding by fellow comic fans, I finally read the first collection of Fables. This is the 'Who Killed Rose Red?' arc.

I have to say that I found it a somewhat interesting read but don't understand all the excitement about it. I felt it was a perfectly compelling read as a crime drama without the need for all of the fairy tale stuff. It didn't detract from the story or hurt it or anything like that. I just didn't think it needed it for the crime drama aspect of the story. Willingham's ability to tell a detective yarn is underrated.

Willingham's take on what might happen to these fairy tale characters were they forced to adjust to an existence in the real world was compelling in the same way I anticipate the cameos in the Kingdom Hearts games. That is, I'm curious to see how the characters get introduced and what their personalities are in this re-imagined take on them, but once I've 'met' the characters, I quickly lose interest in them and in the events of their lives. That said, seeing how characters like Prince Charming, Jack from Jack and the Beanstalk, the Big Bad Wolf and Snow White turned out were all great fun.

But I don't think this modern world take on the fairy tale characters is enough to keep me involved. I'll take a pass and look for something that grabs me more.

Actually, there is ONE character whose appearance compels me to want to know more and that is the pig from Three Little Pigs. Him showing up at Bibgy's apartment and then sneaking into the Rememberance Day event and also sleeping outside Bigby's apartment all seemed funny and ironic. First the Big Bad Wolf wanted into the Pig's house. Now it's the other way around. I would like to know where this all ends up going. I think them living together would be pretty hilarious, but given the dark turns this book can take, it wouldn't at all surprise me if somewhere down the road, they DO end up moving in together and Bigby ends up eating him in a relapse to old ways.

Man, it's weird how much we agree on some things in this thread... I thought pretty much the same thing when I read the first volume of Fables — solid, but nothing spectacular.

That said, it does improve quite a bit. The story is pretty slow in its development, but quite satisfying in the long run. (I imagine it would be maddening to have read it month to month.) So unless you really didn't care for it, I'd hang in there. There are other characters like the three pigs who come along and are immediately endearing too, and the main characters actually get a lot more development than you might expect. And though it's not apparent at the onset, the fantasy setting really is quite essential, so give that a chance too.

 

[Taiso]

Man, it's weird how much we agree on some things in this thread... I thought pretty much the same thing when I read the first volume of Fables — solid, but nothing spectacular.

That said, it does improve quite a bit. The story is pretty slow in its development, but quite satisfying in the long run. (I imagine it would be maddening to have read it month to month.) So unless you really didn't care for it, I'd hang in there. There are other characters like the three pigs who come along and are immediately endearing too, and the main characters actually get a lot more development than you might expect. And though it's not apparent at the onset, the fantasy setting really is quite essential, so give that a chance too.

All right, I'll pick up volume 2 on your recommendation tonight when I hit the comic store.

But if I end up feeling like I wasted my money, I want blood.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

All right, I'll pick up volume 2 on your recommendation tonight when I hit the comic store.

But if I end up feeling like I wasted my money, I want blood.

Well be advised then that it might take more than just the second volume to really get into it. I didn't really start to like the series 'til around volume four or so (if I remember right).

I'd go on to say this: If there are other comics you're interested in, perhaps you should lower the priority of this one and get something instead? Just a suggestion.

 

[Taiso]

Well be advised then that it might take more than just the second volume to really get into it. I didn't really start to like the series 'til around volume four or so (if I remember right).

I'd go on to say this: If there are other comics you're interested in, perhaps you should lower the priority of this one and get something instead? Just a suggestion.

If I don't strike while the iron is hot, I'll just never go back to it. And if it's worth the read, I'd rather just bull through it now.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

If I don't strike while the iron is hot, I'll just never go back to it. And if it's worth the read, I'd rather just bull through it now.

Fair enough. All in all, I say the series is worth reading, if a bit overrated in the end, so take that for what it's worth.

If nothing else, Fables is the perfect comic to lend to people who don't normally read comics (I think I said that before... didn't I?). Only Bone has more universal appeal, in my experience. So even if you don't love it yourself, I suspect you'll enjoy it at least, and you can use it to get your wife/girlfriend/whatever into comics too.

 

[Taiso]

Fair enough. All in all, I say the series is worth reading, if a bit overrated in the end, so take that for what it's worth.

If nothing else, Fables is the perfect comic to lend to people who don't normally read comics (I think I said that before... didn't I?). Only Bone has more universal appeal, in my experience. So even if you don't love it yourself, I suspect you'll enjoy it at least, and you can use it to get your wife/girlfriend/whatever into comics too.

Not a bad idea. And I can always use it as a hand me down gift if I end up feeling like it wasn't for me.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Not a bad idea. And I can always use it as a hand me down gift if I end up feeling like it wasn't for me.

That's what I do.

 

[aria]

I picked up The Book of Genesis Illustrated by R. Crumb. I've got through the first few chapters and I love the artwork --though I have to say the story is rather silly and unbelievable. You'd swear it was written by a bunch of barely-literate peasants making random things up to explain the universe... still, I plan to read it through.

 

[Taiso]

I read Fables volumes 2 and 3.

I've changed my mind about this series.

it is eminently worth reading. Everyone should dive right in, IMO.

 

[IsamuBlue]

What do you guys think of the upcoming "Frankencastle" arc Marvel is doing with Punisher?

 

[Taiso]

I don't know about anybody else, but I am not much of a Punisher fan so I don't have an opinion on it. I hope it's good for Pun fans, because they deserve something for their long loyalty-that character has been put through one shit arc after another for far too long. It's gotten to the point where I personally can't stand seeing him, and it has less to do with the character than it does with the way Marvel has utilized him since he became a 'staple' Marvel character.

I could say the same about Wolverine, actually-good character until Marvel started forcing him into everything after Paul Smith's run on Uncanny in the 170s. It was around that time that Wolverine's popularity really exploded, probably due in no small part to the Claremont/Miller Wolverine mini-series. That's not to say good things haven't been done with the character. I loved the Windsor-Smith Weapon X storyline, and there have been a few other things i liked him in. And he was properly handled in the Whedon-Cassidy Astonishing run.

Now we're starting to see this similar character overload on Deadpool. Pretty soon, I expect to see your typical Marvel publicity promotion featuring Spiderman at the forefront and Wolverine and Deadpool to either side of him. Ugh.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

I read Fables volumes 2 and 3.

I've changed my mind about this series.

it is eminently worth reading. Everyone should dive right in, IMO.

'

Ah, good. I hoped that'd be the case.

What do you guys think of the upcoming "Frankencastle" arc Marvel is doing with Punisher?

I don't read Punisher anymore, not after the glory that was the Ennis run. Nothing compares.

 

[Comrade Porn King Mikhail]

Been reading Walking Dead in chapter chunks from the hardcovers. What an awesome series! I am enjoying the grizzly art and the superb character development. Don't know how I missed this all these years (probably because of my gradual disenchantment with the soap opera standard comic scene) but I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys post-apocalyptic stories.

Sincerely,

Mikhail

 

[Taiso]

The Walking Dead is my favorite comic of all time.

It's the only series I've ever read that has consistently maintained my interest with ever issue. I've never lost one fraction of interest in the series at any point. To do that over the course of five years, especially when I've been reading comics for over thirty years and have seen a lot of 'em come and go from my list of monthly buys, It's at the top of my personal list.

If you like The Walking Dead, try Rotten from Moonstone Press. It's also a very good zombie comic, but not set in a post apocalyptic setting. It's set during the presidency of Rutherford B. Hayes, so it's a new take on an old idea.