The Comic Book Thread

[Electric Grave]

OK, so I'm reading fables and house of mistery. I told the comic shop owner that I was done with comic books all together then his wife was all kinds of concerned and told me to give these 2 titles a try. Apparently House of Mistery is written by Carey which wrote Lucifer and both books apparently are from the Sandman's pages, well more like house of mistery was from abel & cain but still, abel & cain are from sandman so there you go. Needless to say both books are well worth the read, so far I only have the first 29 issues of Fables (No TPB's) and the first 4 or so of house of mistery.

The only books I kept from my subscription are Black Panther, Spawn, Thor, Amazing Spiderman and Captain America, but I'm dropping Cap, I just don't like the direction of the book right now. This is a good thing though, I mean I used to have at least 20 something monthly titles.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

OK, so I'm reading fables and house of mistery. I told the comic shop owner that I was done with comic books all together then his wife was all kinds of concerned and told me to give these 2 titles a try. Apparently House of Mistery is written by Carey which wrote Lucifer and both books apparently are from the Sandman's pages, well more like house of mistery was from abel & cain but still, abel & cain are from sandman so there you go. Needless to say both books are well worth the read, so far I only have the first 29 issues of Fables (No TPB's) and the first 4 or so of house of mistery.

The only books I kept from my subscription are Black Panther, Spawn, Thor, Amazing Spiderman and Captain America, but I'm dropping Cap, I just don't like the direction of the book right now. This is a good thing though, I mean I used to have at least 20 something monthly titles.

I buy about 10-15 comics a week. You have a much, much bigger collection than me though, if I remember right (I only have a couple thousand single issues).

Glad to hear you're liking Fables, though. It's a great comic, though I think it's a little (just a little) on the overrated side. One thing I do like about it is its universal appeal, though — you can hand it to people that don't normally read comics, and chances are they'll enjoy it. There aren't too many like that, so they should be treasured, I think.

 

[Taiso]

I dunno man. I like Hitch and Millar probably a lot more than most, and I thought that run started strong and ended with an absolute fizzle.

The whole notion of Doom having a master is just dumb, too. It subverts the entire point of the character. The reason he's Doom in the first place is due to his own arrogance and unwillingness to listen to Reed when he should have. The bottom line is that Doom never bends his knee to anyone, for any reason, even to save himself. The whole idea came off as a kind of Millar raving that went, "Hey, if Doom is awesome, than what would be more awesome? I know, the motherfucking master of Doom!" Plus the tie-in with the vastly overrated 1985 series was a bit gratuitous, I thought. Overall, that run was pretty disappointing. I'm already liking the Hickman/Eaglesham stuff a lot more. It's a shame, really — I had really high hopes for the Millar/Hitch stuff, but sometimes it just isn't meant to be I guess.

Oh, I don't deny that the arc has some execution problems. But I bought all the issues before I read a single one and I was pretty captivated. It wasn't 'the essential Fantastic Four' to me but I enjoyed it well enough. For me, the essential FF will always be Byrne's legendary run on the title.

(By the way, have you read Spider-Man: Blue and Daredevil: Yellow? I'd say both of those were better than Hulk: Gray.)

I have them in HC format but have not read them yet. They are next on my list. And I've heard the same exact thing that you say.

Personally, I hope Sale comes back to comics so these guys can do Captain America: White at long last.

Man, you've totally lost me here. I think the whole Red Hulk thing is pretty silly,

I can't pass judgement until I see what's actually going on. I don't like how Loeb is pissing all over the MU through Red Hulk, but I am interested in seeing where it goes. And if I, as a reader, am interested (see FF above), then I can detatch myself from my fan sensibilities enough to stick with something.

and while I do enjoy The Walking Dead, I'd hardly say it's the best comic ever. Hell, half the things you've already listed are much better in my book. It's a solid read for sure, but sometimes the characterization is flimsy as hell, and the whole prison storyline was about 24 issues longer than it needed to be. That's some serious bloating for a series that should have a sense of urgency and danger to it. That said, it's been very good lately, so I'm glad to see Kirkman hasn't lost it just yet.

I have never lost interest in this book or felt it had lost its way at any point.

Ever.

And this is no sycophant rambling here. If I hate something, even if it's from something I love, I am not afraid to case on it.

The decompression of the series works perfectly for me. I even liked the prison arc just fine.

I don't see the chacterizaton as flimsy at all. I see it as seeing different sides of the characters due to their being in different situations. I don't feel the characters have ever compromised the core essences of who they are. It's true that when you write 60 some odd issues of a comic book, not every one is going to be as good as every other one, but I feel Kirkman has done a fine job of keeping pace and not letting his audience, as a whole, down.

But Brubaker's Cap remains utterly fantastic. I'll admit that the Reborn mini isn't as Earth-shatteringly good as I'd hoped it would be, but that's only because my expectations were so sky high. And the implications, if nothing else, are promising, to say the least.

I'm just happy to see Steve back in a current setting and not in some WW II flashback (meaning: able to affect current events and not simply showing an adventure from his past.) I am of the firm opinon that Bucky is a great character but I didn't need to see him as Cap. it did nothing for me. Necessary, given the complications brought on by Steve's death, but never a high priority on my list.

As for me, I bought the Strangers in Paradise omnibus yesterday. That sucker is big enough to give you a hernia if lifted improperly.

I need this.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Straczynski's Thor is utterly fantastic. Too bad there's only one more issue of it. I'll stick with it afterwards, just like i did with Hickman and Eaglesham on FF, to see where it goes. But Thor is like Cap for me: if you can't do the character absolute justice, give it to someone who can.

Brubaker and Straczynski have been dreams for Cap and Thor. Hope it keeps up, regardless of who carries on after they're gone.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Anyone who can't seem to get into Corben should read the work he is most famous for: Den.

Den has been his largest work, starting in Heavy Metal magazine in the '70s and serialized in various formats through the '90s, and using all types of mediums from oil paints and acrylics in the early volumes, to more traditional comic book penciling and inking, to some digital paining in later chapters.

The story is very much in the tradition of John Carter, Warlord of Mars/Edgar Rice Burroughs, which I really enjoy.

Most of the story was collected into 5 volumes: Neverwhere, Muvovum, Children of Fire, Dreams, and Elements, but I think all volumes are currently out of print. Not sure where to suggest looking for them now...

You should also check out a book Heavy Metal put out a while back that collects Corben's short story work for the Warren horror comics of the '70s... Creepy and Eerie. Some real gems in this book.

How can anyone not love that cover? It's awesome, and still available, I think. Pick up the hardcover version if possible, it has extra material the softcover book doesn't. I didn't realize they had different content and now I own both.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Oh, I don't deny that the arc has some execution problems. But I bought all the issues before I read a single one and I was pretty captivated. It wasn't 'the essential Fantastic Four' to me but I enjoyed it well enough. For me, the essential FF will always be Byrne's legendary run on the title.

Ah, seems we agree in more ways than I thought! I'm not used to that happening. I'm surprised you cite the Byrne stuff instead of the legendary Kirby/Lee run, though. Though loving their FF kind of goes without saying, I suppose. Either way, I certainly agree with you that the Hitch/Millar stuff was enjoyable in its own right, just not as good as it could have (or even should have) been.

I have them in HC format but have not read them yet. They are next on my list. And I've heard the same exact thing that you say.

Personally, I hope Sale comes back to comics so these guys can do Captain America: White at long last.

Yeah, I think it's a pretty sure bet you'll enjoy 'em, then. I think DD: Yellow is better, so perhaps you'll want to read Spider-Man: Blue first? Just a suggestion.

I read the #0 issue of Cap: White, though, and.... Well, let's just say I think that somewhere along the line, Loeb has kind of lost his mojo. Worst of all, I really loved Brubaker's portrayal of Bucky, and the Cap: White stuff seems to throw it right out the window. Overall I was very disappointed, so I don't think I'll bother with the series proper when it (eventually) comes out. Bit of a shame, I did like the colour series a lot more than most of Loeb's work, and I had high hopes for this one.

I can't pass judgement until I see what's actually going on. I don't like how Loeb is pissing all over the MU through Red Hulk, but I am interested in seeing where it goes. And if I, as a reader, am interested (see FF above), then I can detatch myself from my fan sensibilities enough to stick with something.

Fair enough. I won't tell you what to like and what not to, it's your business.

I will say this, though: Three She-Hulks? Is that really necessary?

I have never lost interest in this book or felt it had lost its way at any point.

Ever.

And this is no sycophant rambling here. If I hate something, even if it's from something I love, I am not afraid to case on it.

The decompression of the series works perfectly for me. I even liked the prison arc just fine.

I don't see the chacterizaton as flimsy at all. I see it as seeing different sides of the characters due to their being in different situations. I don't feel the characters have ever compromised the core essences of who they are. It's true that when you write 60 some odd issues of a comic book, not every one is going to be as good as every other one, but I feel Kirkman has done a fine job of keeping pace and not letting his audience, as a whole, down.

Well, if you love it, you love it, what can I say. One thing is worth mentioning, though: you say you have the hardcovers, which means you read the whole story in a short amount of time. I read it monthly, so the pacing during the prison arc was goddamned glacial. Some of those books were pretty late, too. So imagine getting the next chapter, only to find that literally the entire issue was an (in my opinion) utterly unnecessary flashback. It's frustrating.

As for the characterization, allow me to expand what I said: for the most part, it's solid. But it breaks down from time to time, I find. And as time passes, I find that people like Rick get more and more hollow (for lack of a better word). Maybe it's just me, maybe they're supposed to be that way, I don't know. Either way I do still enjoy the series a lot and will continue to buy it, so it's a quibble, really.

I'm just happy to see Steve back in a current setting and not in some WW II flashback (meaning: able to affect current events and not simply showing an adventure from his past.) I am of the firm opinon that Bucky is a great character but I didn't need to see him as Cap. it did nothing for me. Necessary, given the complications brought on by Steve's death, but never a high priority on my list.

I'm glad to have Steve back too, but I liked the Bucky Cap so much that I kind of wish he had more time to shine on his own. I'm surprised to hear it did nothing for you — Brubaker's revival of that character has been nothing short of stellar, and watching him agonize as he tries to live up to Steve's legacy is saddening and heartening at the same time. It's as good as super hero comics get, if you ask me.

I need this.

You sure do.

The omnibus is actually a decent deal. The whole series was about 105 issues or so, and the price of the omnibus is $159. Not too bad. The pocket books are a better deal, but only slightly (there's six, and they're $25 each, as I said). They have almost everything, too.

Either way, I'd just get the series any way you can. I can't think of another series that had the same kind of emotional impact. The only people I've heard of that didn't like it are homophobes. (Which is to say, they were homophobes first, not homophobes because they didn't like it. One of the main characters is a lesbian.)

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Straczynski's Thor is utterly fantastic. Too bad there's only one more issue of it. I'll stick with it afterwards, just like i did with Hickman and Eaglesham on FF, to see where it goes. But Thor is like Cap for me: if you can't do the character absolute justice, give it to someone who can.

Brubaker and Straczynski have been dreams for Cap and Thor. Hope it keeps up, regardless of who carries on after they're gone.

I like JMS's comics work for the most part, but once in a while, he lets things fall apart in the end (Supreme Power comes to mind, and if it doesn't get finished, so does The Twelve). With that in mind, my plan was to check out Thor in trade form.

I've heard it's great from a lot of people, though, so I think I'll wind up getting 'em sooner or later.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Anyone who can't seem to get into Corben should read the work he is most famous for: Den.

Den has been his largest work, starting in Heavy Metal magazine in the '70s and serialized in various formats through the '90s, and using all types of mediums from oil paints and acrylics in the early volumes, to more traditional comic book penciling and inking, to some digital paining in later chapters.

The story is very much in the tradition of John Carter, Warlord of Mars/Edgar Rice Burroughs, which I really enjoy.

Most of the story was collected into 5 volumes: Neverwhere, Muvovum, Children of Fire, Dreams, and Elements, but I think all volumes are currently out of print. Not sure where to suggest looking for them now...

You should also check out a book Heavy Metal put out a while back that collects Corben's short story work for the Warren horror comics of the '70s... Creepy and Eerie. Some real gems in this book.

How can anyone not love that cover? It's awesome, and still available, I think. Pick up the hardcover version if possible, it has extra material the softcover book doesn't. I didn't realize they had different content and now I own both.

Yep, I pretty much agree. I'd also recommend Rwolf, that was pretty cool too.

 

[Electric Grave]

I buy about 10-15 comics a week. You have a much, much bigger collection than me though, if I remember right (I only have a couple thousand single issues).

Glad to hear you're liking Fables, though. It's a great comic, though I think it's a little (just a little) on the overrated side. One thing I do like about it is its universal appeal, though — you can hand it to people that don't normally read comics, and chances are they'll enjoy it. There aren't too many like that, so they should be treasured, I think.

Dude I have 20 to 30 full boxes!!! All I know is every 2 months I was spending about 400 bucks and it didn't bother me much until I started catching up with my subscriptions (reading wise) and realizing that I was wasting my time and money with most of it.

Yeah, Fables is good. I agree with the universal appeal comment, I handed it to this girl I was going out with and she read the first 4 or 5 issues none stop just to find out that Red was alive and well. The book grabs you even if the plot is not intricate or anything.

 

[SouthtownKid]

I am also enjoying Red Hulk very much. I know how popular it is to hate anything Loeb does now, but it's just a fun book. It's a throwback to the times when a comic book COULD just be fun. "The Offenders"? Come on, that is fucking genius. The Defenders have been around since 1971 and no one has thought of that before now? There have to be a bunch of writers kicking themselves for that missed opportunity.

But the fanboys are merciless. They'll pounce on the slimmest, slightest perceived offense, and whine and moan about it for months and months.

Like the punching the Watcher thing. Holy shit did fanboys get mad over the Watcher being disrespected or whatever blah blah blah. Are you kidding me? This is something that should have happened DECADES AGO.

"I have come because very tragically, your world is about to be destroyed."

"Are you going to help us?"

"No, I'm just going to stand right over here and watch it all go down."

Whatever heroes are around should be beating the shit out of the Watchers every time they show up. Red Hulk pasting one was righting a longstanding wrong. "Well, I don't want you watching me." Well said, Red Hulk, well said.

Remember the Watcher analog in Venture Bros.? "IGNORE ME!!!" They shot that fucker, and it was the right move.

Red Hulk is a book whose primary goal is fun, and anything not in service of that -- including logic -- may be temporarily suspended. I don't see that as being such a fucking crime.

The book is also a vehicle for great artists like Art Adams and Frank Cho to cut loose ad draw exactly the kinds of things they'd like to draw. I don't see that as a bad thing, either.

Is it Watchmen? No. Do I need everything to aspire to be Watchmen in order to enjoy it? No.

 

[Taiso]

Ah, seems we agree in more ways than I thought! I'm not used to that happening. I'm surprised you cite the Byrne stuff instead of the legendary Kirby/Lee run, though. Though loving their FF kind of goes without saying, I suppose. Either way, I certainly agree with you that the Hitch/Millar stuff was enjoyable in its own right, just not as good as it could have (or even should have) been.

Your thoughts echo my exact sentiments, sir.

The reason I treasure the Byrne run so much is because, for the time, the characters seemed very mature and 'real world' to me. As I was growing up reading these, I couldn't help but feel that I was understanding the sometimes complex elements of the storyline. There were things Byrne did that he was able to relate to me, as a young comics reader, that didn't overwhelm me but didn't insult my intelligence at the same time.

He was able to firmly establish the gravity of the situation when Galactus came back to eat the Earth and he was in that weakened state. The two things I remember the most about that arc are that A.) Galactus himself agonized over his decision to break his promise to Reed Richards and B.) the heroes actually BEAT him.

I thought the fact that Galactus felt remorse about his actions really gave the character a depth I never would have imagined possible.

And even though nowadays, Galactus is all too vulnerable (a malady I wish Marvel would correct-I feel Galactus should be the baddest of the bad, the most powerful entity in the universe BAR NONE), back then....he was teh ubar. Seeing him fall in an INTELLIGENTLY written way was mind blowing.

Frankie Ray leaving Johnny to become Galactus' herald, and the heartache he felt at her becoming a cosmic powererd being, really hit me. The fact that she joyfully embraced her new role, leaving behind Earth and all of her mortal attachments, absolutely killed Johnny. As a reader, I *understood* his pain.

The Hate Monger arc was very mature and dealt with serious subject matter.

The trial of Galactus.

Tyros the Untamed.

Successfully integrating She Hulk into the FF.

Alicia hooking up with Johnny while Ben was off on Battleworld.

I could go on and on.

Lee and Kirby will always be a special era, but Byrne's run redefined comics for me and it redefined what a superhero comic could be, IMO. That's why his FF run will always be tops in my book.

Yeah, I think it's a pretty sure bet you'll enjoy 'em, then. I think DD: Yellow is better, so perhaps you'll want to read Spider-Man: Blue first? Just a suggestion.

I will do that very thing and let ya know what I think

I read the #0 issue of Cap: White, though, and.... Well, let's just say I think that somewhere along the line, Loeb has kind of lost his mojo. Worst of all, I really loved Brubaker's portrayal of Bucky, and the Cap: White stuff seems to throw it right out the window. Overall I was very disappointed, so I don't think I'll bother with the series proper when it (eventually) comes out. Bit of a shame, I did like the colour series a lot more than most of Loeb's work, and I had high hopes for this one.

I DO agree that Loeb has lost his mind to some degree (I guess writing for Heroes will do that for you), but I think that he's just trying to write his 'own' stuff. For the sake of White, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Fair enough. I won't tell you what to like and what not to, it's your business.

I will say this, though: Three She-Hulks? Is that really necessary?

Hell yeah!

I hope they start fighting.

Because we know where that will lead.

Well, if you love it, you love it, what can I say. One thing is worth mentioning, though: you say you have the hardcovers, which means you read the whole story in a short amount of time. I read it monthly, so the pacing during the prison arc was goddamned glacial. Some of those books were pretty late, too. So imagine getting the next chapter, only to find that literally the entire issue was an (in my opinion) utterly unnecessary flashback. It's frustrating.

As for the characterization, allow me to expand what I said: for the most part, it's solid. But it breaks down from time to time, I find. And as time passes, I find that people like Rick get more and more hollow (for lack of a better word). Maybe it's just me, maybe they're supposed to be that way, I don't know. Either way I do still enjoy the series a lot and will continue to buy it, so it's a quibble, really.

I read it monthly, too.

I actually DO have a complaint, now that i think of it.

I thought the governor coming back felt too much like one of those 'You!? But you're....DEAD!' moments.

But at least it led to the most painful series of issues any comic book has ever given me.

And what I loved about it was that he wasn't really all that great of a leader and was making a lot of poor decisions. It showed him in a very vulnerable light, and while I have NO sympathy for him at all, it was refreshing to see the character written as something other than a mastermind when the situation got too volatile for even him to handle.

I'm glad to have Steve back too, but I liked the Bucky Cap so much that I kind of wish he had more time to shine on his own. I'm surprised to hear it did nothing for you — Brubaker's revival of that character has been nothing short of stellar, and watching him agonize as he tries to live up to Steve's legacy is saddening and heartening at the same time. It's as good as super hero comics get, if you ask me.

Sorry, let me clarify now

I like James Barnes.

He's a great character.

I just didn't need to see him as Cap.

It is a masterfully written story arc, no doubt about it.

I just didn't need to see it.

My guess is that after Steve comes back, he won't take the role back right away. He'll go off somewhere to decompress.

He'll probably be all 'I died and look what happened to the world. Norman Osborn's in control of everything? What did we fight for? The bad guys won in the end!'

He won't leave bitterly, but clearly he'll be a man out of his element again, just as he was when the Avengers found him. Only this time, he'll take some time to figure it all out before gathering the Avengers once more under the shield and leading them to victory.

I wouldn't be surprised if they killed Bucky to make him come back.

You sure do.

The omnibus is actually a decent deal. The whole series was about 105 issues or so, and the price of the omnibus is $159. Not too bad. The pocket books are a better deal, but only slightly (there's six, and they're $25 each, as I said). They have almost everything, too.

Either way, I'd just get the series any way you can. I can't think of another series that had the same kind of emotional impact. The only people I've heard of that didn't like it are homophobes. (Which is to say, they were homophobes first, not homophobes because they didn't like it. One of the main characters is a lesbian.)

Their loss^^

Did/do you read Echo? What do you think of it?

I like JMS's comics work for the most part, but once in a while, he lets things fall apart in the end (Supreme Power comes to mind, and if it doesn't get finished, so does The Twelve). With that in mind, my plan was to check out Thor in trade form.

I've heard it's great from a lot of people, though, so I think I'll wind up getting 'em sooner or later.

I don't think you'll be disappointed. It's definitely a return to greatness for the character.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

I am also enjoying Red Hulk very much. I know how popular it is to hate anything Loeb does now, but it's just a fun book. It's a throwback to the times when a comic book COULD just be fun. "The Offenders"? Come on, that is fucking genius. The Defenders have been around since 1971 and no one has thought of that before now? There have to be a bunch of writers kicking themselves for that missed opportunity.

But the fanboys are merciless. They'll pounce on the slimmest, slightest perceived offense, and whine and moan about it for months and months.

Like the punching the Watcher thing. Holy shit did fanboys get mad over the Watcher being disrespected or whatever blah blah blah. Are you kidding me? This is something that should have happened DECADES AGO.

"I have come because very tragically, your world is about to be destroyed."

"Are you going to help us?"

"No, I'm just going to stand right over here and watch it all go down."

Whatever heroes are around should be beating the shit out of the Watchers every time they show up. Red Hulk pasting one was righting a longstanding wrong. "Well, I don't want you watching me." Well said, Red Hulk, well said.

Remember the Watcher analog in Venture Bros.? "IGNORE ME!!!" They shot that fucker, and it was the right move.

Red Hulk is a book whose primary goal is fun, and anything not in service of that -- including logic -- may be temporarily suspended. I don't see that as being such a fucking crime.

The book is also a vehicle for great artists like Art Adams and Frank Cho to cut loose ad draw exactly the kinds of things they'd like to draw. I don't see that as a bad thing, either.

Is it Watchmen? No. Do I need everything to aspire to be Watchmen in order to enjoy it? No.

I know what you're saying, and to some extent, I agree. I don't rag on Loeb because I'm a fanboy and that's what fanboys do, I rag on him because I remember his earlier work and I think he's just plain better than this. Okay, fine, Red Hulk isn't my cup of tea... But what about his horrible, horrible Wolverine arc? It was convoluted and haphazard, and his understanding of the character was piss poor to say the least (and come on, how hard is it to understand Wolverine?).

His overall work these days just isn't very good. I admit that people are going for his throat pretty hard, and that's a little much if you ask me... But I don't care for his stuff these days, plain and simple. I guess I keep getting worked up over it because I used to like it so much. That kind of thing happens, though. I suppose I should get over it.

Your thoughts echo my exact sentiments, sir.

The reason I treasure the Byrne run so much is because, for the time, the characters seemed very mature and 'real world' to me. As I was growing up reading these, I couldn't help but feel that I was understanding the sometimes complex elements of the storyline. There were things Byrne did that he was able to relate to me, as a young comics reader, that didn't overwhelm me but didn't insult my intelligence at the same time.

He was able to firmly establish the gravity of the situation when Galactus came back to eat the Earth and he was in that weakened state. The two things I remember the most about that arc are that A.) Galactus himself agonized over his decision to break his promise to Reed Richards and B.) the heroes actually BEAT him.

I thought the fact that Galactus felt remorse about his actions really gave the character a depth I never would have imagined possible.

And even though nowadays, Galactus is all too vulnerable (a malady I wish Marvel would correct-I feel Galactus should be the baddest of the bad, the most powerful entity in the universe BAR NONE), back then....he was teh ubar. Seeing him fall in an INTELLIGENTLY written way was mind blowing.

Frankie Ray leaving Johnny to become Galactus' herald, and the heartache he felt at her becoming a cosmic powererd being, really hit me. The fact that she joyfully embraced her new role, leaving behind Earth and all of her mortal attachments, absolutely killed Johnny. As a reader, I *understood* his pain.

The Hate Monger arc was very mature and dealt with serious subject matter.

The trial of Galactus.

Tyros the Untamed.

Successfully integrating She Hulk into the FF.

Alicia hooking up with Johnny while Ben was off on Battleworld.

I could go on and on.

Lee and Kirby will always be a special era, but Byrne's run redefined comics for me and it redefined what a superhero comic could be, IMO. That's why his FF run will always be tops in my book.

Yeah man, I know what you mean. And I totally agree about Galactus... Much like the Borg in Voyager, for some reason he got totally pussy-fied, and I don't like it.

I read it monthly, too.

I actually DO have a complaint, now that i think of it.

I thought the governor coming back felt too much like one of those 'You!? But you're....DEAD!' moments.

But at least it led to the most painful series of issues any comic book has ever given me.

And what I loved about it was that he wasn't really all that great of a leader and was making a lot of poor decisions. It showed him in a very vulnerable light, and while I have NO sympathy for him at all, it was refreshing to see the character written as something other than a mastermind when the situation got too volatile for even him to handle.

Oh, I could have sworn you said you read the HCs. Well. I know a lot of people who liked the whole run, including the prison arc, so you're not alone... I just think the lot of you are crazy. As for the governor, I thought he was an interesting villain too, but I didn't understand why a whole community would continue to follow his (clearly crazy) lead. And I don't care what anyone says, that whole story line wore out its welcome and then some. The fact that he didn't actually die before he was finally killed just compounded the frustration for me.

Sorry, let me clarify now

I like James Barnes.

He's a great character.

I just didn't need to see him as Cap.

It is a masterfully written story arc, no doubt about it.

I just didn't need to see it.

My guess is that after Steve comes back, he won't take the role back right away. He'll go off somewhere to decompress.

He'll probably be all 'I died and look what happened to the world. Norman Osborn's in control of everything? What did we fight for? The bad guys won in the end!'

He won't leave bitterly, but clearly he'll be a man out of his element again, just as he was when the Avengers found him. Only this time, he'll take some time to figure it all out before gathering the Avengers once more under the shield and leading them to victory.

I wouldn't be surprised if they killed Bucky to make him come back.

There's no way they're gonna kill Bucky, if you ask me. This is what I think is gonna happen: Steve will be back, and he'll say to Buck: "Hey, you've done a great job as Cap. You should keep the shield, and the role." Bucky goes: "No way! You're Cap, I could never live up to your example, let alone replace you. Here, have the shield!" Cap refuses, and becomes Nomad (or something) for a while, despite Bucky trying to convince him otherwise. In the end, Bucky regains a lot of confidence in himself, becomes better friends with Steve all over again, and reclaims his role as the Winter Solider, this time as a good guy, while Steve goes back to being Cap. It's gonna be great either way, and I absolutely can't wait to see what happens.

And as for not seeing Bucky as Cap... C'mon, who else was going to do it? He wasn't perfect for the job, but he was the only one that could do it. Watching him struggle with the role was fantastic! I'm stunned you didn't enjoy it at least a little, if you liked the overall run.

Did/do you read Echo? What do you think of it?

Yeah, I do. It started off a bit slow (though it was very solid storytelling, for sure), but has really come into its own in the past few issues. I'll admit it's not nearly as good as SiP, but it's worth reading for sure.

I don't think you'll be disappointed. It's definitely a return to greatness for the character.

Sounds good. I've always loved Thor, and I'm glad to see him done well.

Hey, did you read the Thor arc during Avengers Disassembled way back when? I always loved that story, and I thought Mike Oeming did a great job writing it (I think Andrea Olivetti drew it, and that was great work too). It was his last appearance before JMS brought him back, and I thought it was an excellent send off. I don't think too many people read it though, which is a bit of a shame.

 

[SouthtownKid]

The omnibus is actually a decent deal. The whole series was about 105 issues or so, and the price of the omnibus is $159. Not too bad. The pocket books are a better deal, but only slightly (there's six, and they're $25 each, as I said). They have almost everything, too.

Either way, I'd just get the series any way you can. I can't think of another series that had the same kind of emotional impact. The only people I've heard of that didn't like it are homophobes. (Which is to say, they were homophobes first, not homophobes because they didn't like it. One of the main characters is a lesbian.)

You've just met someone who doesn't like it who is not a homophobe. Me.

I tried getting into the series about the time Wildstorm briefly picked it up and started doing color issues. I bought the first two black & white trades expecting to like them, and the first 3 Wildstorm color issues.

They are so fucking derivative.

Anything that is good about them seems ripped off from Love & Rockets (Jaime Hernandez's 'Locas' half of the book) where the same types of characters and things were handled one billion times better with ten billion times the emotional reality and impact. Just to start with, you have one of the main characters who is kind of adrift and self-conscious about her weight, and you have the skinny, smaller blond girl who is a little bit crazy and dangerous who is in love with her? Are you fucking kidding me? Maggie and Hopey had been around for about a decade by the time SiP started. I can't believe Terry Moore doesn't get called on that more than he does.

Maybe it turns into something more original somewhere down the line, but that is ridiculous.

You say the only people you've heard of that didn't like SiP are homophobes? Well, I'll counter that by saying the only people I've heard of that do like it have never been exposed to the infinitely superior Love & Rockets. Strangers in Paradise is like 'Battle Beyond the Stars' to Love & Rockets' "Star Wars



_____

About Loeb's Wolverine arc: Yeah, that is indefensible. But to me, that's been the only indefensible thing he's written.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

You've just met someone who doesn't like it who is not a homophobe. Me.

I tried getting into the series about the time Wildstorm briefly picked it up and started doing color issues. I bought the first two black & white trades expecting to like them, and the first 3 Wildstorm color issues.

They are so fucking derivative.

Anything that is good about them seems ripped off from Love & Rockets (Jaime Hernandez's 'Locas' half of the book) where the same types of characters and things were handled one billion times better with ten billion times the emotional reality and impact. Just to start with, you have one of the main characters who is kind of adrift and self-conscious about her weight, and you have the skinny, smaller blond girl who is a little bit crazy and dangerous who is in love with her? Are you fucking kidding me? Maggie and Hopey had been around for about a decade by the time SiP started. I can't believe Terry Moore doesn't get called on that more than he does.

Maybe it turns into something more original somewhere down the line, but that is ridiculous.

You say the only people you've heard of that didn't like SiP are homophobes? Well, I'll counter that by saying the only people I've heard of that do like it have never been exposed to Love & Rockets. Strangers in Paradise is like 'Battle Beyond the Stars' to Love & Rockets' "Star Wars



_____

About Loeb's Wolverine arc: Yeah, that is indefensible. But to me, that's been the only indefensible thing he's written.

What! Madness! (I should say that I forgot to mention a friend of mine who didn't like it who also isn't a homophobe, but whatever. He only read the first few issues then became impatient, too, so I didn't weigh his opinion very heavily.)

Anyways, SiP has some of the strongest characterization I've ever seen, in any medium. Derivative?! How can you even say that. It's a romance comic and a crime comic stapled together with a visible seam in the middle, and somehow, each half makes the other half that much better. I can't think of anything else that has done such a thing so well. To be fair, I've never read Love and Rockets (and it sounds like I should). But even if the concept is a rip off, that doesn't mean this series isn't great in its own right. You cite Star Wars... Well, that's one of the greatest rip offs of all time, and it's still a great film anyways.

And it definitely got better and better as it went. The early stuff was very raw — Terry Moore was new to the medium, and it showed. But as time went by, his work definitely got stronger and stronger, and he started to experiment more. And it paid off — he started doing stuff like shifting into prose, and normally I hate that kind of thing. But here, it worked very well, mostly because his writing was very strong.

Unless you thoroughly hated the characters and the concept, I'd reserve judgment until you've read more of the series (you say you read the first couple volumes — do you mean the trades, with 5 or 6 issues apiece, or the pocketbooks, with 20+?). Once it hit its stride, it reached lofty heights the likes of which other creators only dream. I like to think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to comics, so it's not for nothing that I say it's one of the best series ever.

I suppose I might be putting too fine a point on it, but it really is a great comic. If nothing else, you're selling Francine way too short. That character had much more depth than you might think.

It sounds like you didn't hate it or anything, you just weren't impressed (at all). If you know someone that you could borrow 'em from or something, give it another shot. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but I bet your opinion of it will improve nonetheless.

 

[SouthtownKid]

To be fair, I've never read Love and Rockets

That is all you needed to say.


You think I'm selling Francine short? Introduce yourself to Maggie Chascarrillo, the greatest, most emotionally real comic book character ever created. Watch her grow from early teens to middle age.

Like SiP, Love & Rockets definitely starts a little rough and gets better as it goes on. Especially as the author Jaime gets comfortable enough to push the more fantastic elements to the background and concentrate on the drama and characters.


READ. THIS. BOOK.

The original run of Love & Rockets is, along with Will Eisner's post WW2 Spirit stories, the best American comic books ever published, imo, bar none. I can't even think of any close contenders, or one even close enough to list as a third choice in the same sentence.


And it's NOT that I'm not interested in the concept of SiP. It's just that the core relationship (Francine/Katchoo) is such a blatant rip-off of the core relationship (Maggie/Hopey) in much of Love & Rockets.

 

[SouthtownKid]

From Publishers Weekly


These superb stories from the nearly 20-year run of Love and Rockets define a world of Hispanic gang warfare, '80s California, punk rock, women wrestlers and the subtle battle to stay true to oneself. Hernandez's main characters are Maggie and Hopey, two adorable lesbian rockers who start out in a somewhat vague relationship and are then are separated by adventures both grand and demeaning.

Maggie is a magnificent comics character, a tempestuous naïf who wears her heart on her sleeve when she's not throwing it at a succession of bad boys who ignore her, even though Hopey is secretly the love of Maggie's life. Hopey, a mohawked imp, is more opaque, a symbol of the youthful rebellion of punk rock that all the characters are trying to return to in some way, even as real life sweeps them further away from their dreams.

Maggie's weight gain over the years sends her self-esteem on a downward spiral, while Hopey goes on an endless tour with a band. Along the way, Hernandez gradually peels away the strip's early sci-fi trappings (dinosaurs and rocket ships) to create a devastatingly naturalistic world. Sharp b&w drawings capture the characters in minute detail with a wide range of emotions. Finally collected into one volume, these stories are among the greatest comics ever put to paper, and an essential piece of the literature of the punk movement.




No one should be without this book.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

That is all you needed to say.


You think I'm selling Francine short? Introduce yourself to Maggie Chascarrillo, the greatest, most emotionally real comic book character ever created. Watch her grow from early teens to middle age.

Like SiP, Love & Rockets definitely starts a little rough and gets better as it goes on. Especially as the author Jaime gets comfortable enough to push the more fantastic elements to the background and concentrate on the drama and characters.


READ. THIS. BOOK.

The original run of Love & Rockets is, along with Will Eisner's post WW2 Spirit stories, the best American comic books ever published, imo, bar none. I can't even think of any close contenders, or one even close enough to list as a third choice in the same sentence.


And it's NOT that I'm not interested in the concept of SiP. It's just that the core relationship (Francine/Katchoo) is such a blatant rip-off of the core relationship (Maggie/Hopey) in much of Love & Rockets.

Hmm, with a recommendation like that, how can I refuse? I'll pick it up when I get a chance. My friend's store is having a sale at the end of the month, so if he's got it (and I bet he does), I'll get it then. If not, I'll order it in.

Anyways. I'll concede that SiP's relationship between Francine and Katchoo is a rip off, but just trust me on this one: it goes to interesting and heartbreaking places. It's never hackneyed or forced, and when the characters get closer and drift apart (and vice versa), it's always for reasons that make sense and ring true. You can always understand why one of them behaves the way they do at any given moment. Their relationship grows and changes all the time, and probably not the way you'd expect.

And while being a rip off is regrettable, it's hardly the end of the world (or even a deal breaker). Like I said, Star Wars is a rip off too. But if you want to keep it to comics, so are half the characters out there. How about Captain Marvel? A lot of people love that guy, myself included, and he's as flagrant as rip offs get. There are any number of examples. Here's another one: The whole cast of Watchmen could be called a rip off. Hell, they're rip offs of rip offs. But Alan Moore did his own thing with those concepts, and no one would say that those characters are any the less for their stolen origins. If I were you, I wouldn't dismiss SiP just because Terry Moore lifted a few core concepts. Besides, it's not like being in love with your best friend is a original notion anyways. Just because more than one person did it doesn't mean the idea isn't worth exploring all over again.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Hmm, with a recommendation like that, how can I refuse? I'll pick it up when I get a chance. My friend's store is having a sale at the end of the month, so if he's got it (and I bet he does), I'll get it then. If not, I'll order it in.

I'm going to hold you to that.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

I'm going to hold you to that.

By all means, do! It sounds amazing. I respect your opinion, man, so I'm assuming it's not lightly that you say it's one of the greatest series ever. Who knows, maybe I'll come to agree with you in the end. Either way, I want to read it for myself.

 

[genjiglove]

Sounds like I should be reading Love and Rockets. How much of it is there?

 

[SouthtownKid]

Sounds like I should be reading Love and Rockets. How much of it is there?

50 magazine-size issues in its original run from 1981 to 1996 (the series came out quarterly). They then did a few normal comic-sized mini series and then a new comic-size ongoing from 2001 until a couple years ago, and have now started a new series and are producing one, square-bound 100-page issue per year. There are only a couple issues of the latest series out so far, and they're not a good jumping on point.

I should mention that I've only been talking about one half of the book: Jaime's 'Locas' stories. The other half of each issue was by his brother Gilbert, mostly featuring stories set in the fictional, small Central American village of Palomar. These are also great.

The best way to get into the series is either through the hardcovers that collect the original 50-issue series (each brother has a hardcover collecting their own stories)

Locas. and Palomar, although the Palomar book is out of print and hard to find for under $100.

The other choice it to go for the smaller softcover books, each brother's work collected into 3 volumes instead of 1. Starting with Maggie the Mechanic from Jaime and Heartbreak Soup from Gilbert.

Either way is a good option, although the softcovers aren't on quite as nice paper, and they're printed at a smaller size than they were originally published. I prefer the hardcovers.

 

[Taiso]

Oh, I could have sworn you said you read the HCs. Well. I know a lot of people who liked the whole run, including the prison arc, so you're not alone... I just think the lot of you are crazy. As for the governor, I thought he was an interesting villain too, but I didn't understand why a whole community would continue to follow his (clearly crazy) lead. And I don't care what anyone says, that whole story line wore out its welcome and then some. The fact that he didn't actually die before he was finally killed just compounded the frustration for me.

In a world where there is no order and you can't sleep soundly at night for fear of being eaten, if somebody comes along and restores a semblance of society and prosperity, people will follow that person and do what he says. He's a provider and a protector and only a select few know what a sick fuck he really is.

Even as he's attacking the prison, he's trying to hide who he truly is because he knows once people see through his bullshit, he'll lose his power hold.

It makes all the sense in the world to me that people would follow him until they learned the truth. As Kirkman wisely wrote, once people saw what he was really about, they wasted no time throwing him to the zombies.

There's no way they're gonna kill Bucky, if you ask me. This is what I think is gonna happen: Steve will be back, and he'll say to Buck: "Hey, you've done a great job as Cap. You should keep the shield, and the role." Bucky goes: "No way! You're Cap, I could never live up to your example, let alone replace you. Here, have the shield!" Cap refuses, and becomes Nomad (or something) for a while, despite Bucky trying to convince him otherwise. In the end, Bucky regains a lot of confidence in himself, becomes better friends with Steve all over again, and reclaims his role as the Winter Solider, this time as a good guy, while Steve goes back to being Cap. It's gonna be great either way, and I absolutely can't wait to see what happens.

And as for not seeing Bucky as Cap... C'mon, who else was going to do it? He wasn't perfect for the job, but he was the only one that could do it. Watching him struggle with the role was fantastic! I'm stunned you didn't enjoy it at least a little, if you liked the overall run.

I understand the arc and it makes sense for Bucky to try to be Cap.

But it just does nothing for me to see him in the role. He doesn't resonate as Cap. He doesn't convince me as Cap. He has no presence as Cap.

Great character. Wonderfully developed. And the struggle to live up to the name isn't bad storytelling at all. But he doesn't feel like Cap to me. He's not supposed to, and he doesn't. So I want Steve back in the role, in time.

Hey, did you read the Thor arc during Avengers Disassembled way back when? I always loved that story, and I thought Mike Oeming did a great job writing it (I think Andrea Olivetti drew it, and that was great work too). It was his last appearance before JMS brought him back, and I thought it was an excellent send off. I don't think too many people read it though, which is a bit of a shame.

I didn't read it. Thor is, perhaps, one of the most poorly managed Marvel characters following a high water mark.

After Simonson left the book, DeFalco and Frenz took over and what they did was an entertaining throwback but it devalued the character, IMO. Great stories, but it set the stage for his fall. I gave up on Thor after the DeFalco/Frenz run because I couldn't bear to see what else they did to hurt the character. Maybe I'll go back and look at the Disassembled arc at some point.

 

[SouthtownKid]

I didn't read it. Thor is, perhaps, one of the most poorly managed Marvel characters following a high water mark.

After Simonson left the book, DeFalco and Frenz took over and what they did was an entertaining throwback but it devalued the character, IMO. Great stories, but it set the stage for his fall. I gave up on Thor after the DeFalco/Frenz run because I couldn't bear to see what else they did to hurt the character. Maybe I'll go back and look at the Disassembled arc at some point.

If you like Thor, read the Jurgens series that led up to Disassembled. The Jurgens run on Thor is the best the character has had since Simonson, and probably the third best run ever, after Simonson's run and the Kirby stuff.

The early part of the series is a lot of fun, with great JRjr/Janson art, featuring the Asgardians, Hercules, and the Destroyer versus a pantheon of dark gods.

Somewhere in the middle of the series, it meanders a little, but the run leading up to the end of the series is epic. It starts around issue #36 (? I think it was 36, but I might be off)

edit: no, it was more like issue #41

with Odin dying and Thor inheriting the Odinforce and trying to fill his father's shoes. It starts a little slow and takes a few issues to build up steam, but the payoff once it really gets going is huge. It's a really ambitious story...easily the most ambitious since Simonson... and leads Thor to a very dark place as the series branches off into what becomes a possible future for the Marvel Universe. Epic.

 

[genjiglove]

I just, uhh, got a hold of Planetary #27. Great end to the series although perhaps it would have had more impact if it hadn't come three years after the last issue.

Also, I'm going to buy it this weekend so I'm only a dirty pirate until then.

 

[SouthtownKid]

I remember loving Planetary, but honestly, I couldn't even tell you the characters' names at this point, much less anything that was happening. It's been too long. I'll have to dig up and re-read the rest of the series before getting the final issue.

 

[genjiglove]

I remember loving Planetary, but honestly, I couldn't even tell you the characters' names at this point, much less anything that was happening. It's been too long. I'll have to dig up and re-read the rest of the series before getting the final issue.

Yeah I just read the entire series (besides the final issue obviously) about 2-3 months ago so it was all pretty fresh in my mind.

 

[Taiso]

If you like Thor, read the Jurgens series that led up to Disassembled. The Jurgens run on Thor is the best the character has had since Simonson, and probably the third best run ever, after Simonson's run and the Kirby stuff.

The early part of the series is a lot of fun, with great JRjr/Janson art, featuring the Asgardians, Hercules, and the Destroyer versus a pantheon of dark gods.

Somewhere in the middle of the series, it meanders a little, but the run leading up to the end of the series is epic. It starts around issue #36 (? I think it was 36, but I might be off)

edit: no, it was more like issue #41

with Odin dying and Thor inheriting the Odinforce and trying to fill his father's shoes. It starts a little slow and takes a few issues to build up steam, but the payoff once it really gets going is huge. It's a really ambitious story...easily the most ambitious since Simonson... and leads Thor to a very dark place as the series branches off into what becomes a possible future for the Marvel Universe. Epic.

Thanks for the tip. I will definitely look into it.

This thread fucking owns.