Pandora Papers?

StevenK

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I haven't read a lot about this yet, but anytime this shit comes up britain does not come out of it well. Too many parliamentary noses in the trough to close the loopholes.
 

evil wasabi

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Yes well, Sir Elton John is one of the persons of interest.
 

LoneSage

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Any chance the government will do something about this?
I'm confused here. I keep seeing this sentiment, "We gotta do something!"

Do what, exactly? This is how the game of life is played, this is how it's always been. These papers came out, I read the tl;dr and I went about my day. Might as well have told me the sky is blue and water is wet.

It's hard to claim a moral high ground when this is just the norm for leaders at the very top.
 

evil wasabi

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My first reaction would be to penalize all the people involved who are us citizens, on the grounds that (making this up, but the tax code probably has it, it is large) their efforts to move money were not in good faith. But apparently not a lot of US people were involved, because it’s cheaper to just use the US legal system.
 

racecar

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The Panama paper firm is now defunded , so probably get sweep under it
 

terry.330

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But apparently not a lot of US people were involved, because it’s cheaper to just use the US legal system.
Plus a lot of the financial shenanigans going on in Delaware, South Dakota etc. is where a lot of the shady US ultra rich people have started to hide their money in the last decade instead of places like Belize, Switzerland, Cayman Islands etc.
 

lithy

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'Hide', as if governments have a right to it or would do anything better with it.

This is why Biden had to pressure the G8 (7? 6? 9?) to raise corporate tax rates in concert with the US. Turns out market forced work on governments too.
 

wyo

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'Hide', as if governments have a right to it or would do anything better with it.

This is why Biden had to pressure the G8 (7? 6? 9?) to raise corporate tax rates in concert with the US. Turns out market forced work on governments too.
Fair points but no one appreciates seeing the wealthiest pay less as a percentage of income than they do. There are so many loopholes and scams in the tax code, as much as I don't agree with having a flat tax on income, it would actually be an improvement on the current regressive system in the US.

Offshoring could be restricted or outlawed. You know there's a problem when foreign nationals are bringing money and buying assets in your country to park dubiously acquired wealth, which is what is exactly what is happening in the US, UK and other places you wouldn't traditionally think of as tax havens.
 

lithy

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Jealousy is a mortal sin.

Consumption based tax with simple exemption or rebate for a 'basic standard of living' with regular COLA.

I'm not sure what is so bad about offshoring or foreign investment.
 

100proof

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Jealousy is a mortal sin.

Consumption based tax with simple exemption or rebate for a 'basic standard of living' with regular COLA.

I'm not sure what is so bad about offshoring or foreign investment.

It's not complicated. If you're making your money in a country, you should be paying the tax in that country on what you made. Because you make that money taking advantage of the basic public facilities provided by that country's infrastructure: roads/bridges, water, power grids, security, education, etc. etc. etc. All things that need to be maintained, supported and improved upon through research and development for the public good. And no, private interests cannot be trusted to do the job without significant oversight.
 

evil wasabi

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Why are you taxed on what you made, when you’re also taxed on what you spend, and soon, what you might make (but haven’t; simply to freak out crypto coin investors who might get rich overnight).

A consumption tax would be fine to me. If we have a government set up from top to bottom in a way that laser focuses legal, police, market protections on the rich, why are the poor and middle class paying? Why are, for example, black people obligated to pay income or property taxes when the country on just about every level ignores them?

Something needs to change. The government is overtaxing people for what the government provides, so that it can piss the lions share away from theb98%. most of our tax code has been used to facilitate massive wealth transfers from the middle class to the rich, to foreign nations demanding tribute, to police acting as prison guards, etc.

Let’s not completely go all-in on the status quo.
 

norton9478

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Tax wealth.
-Not income.
-Not consumption.

If the fundamental purpose of goverment is to protect wealth, then wealth shall pay for it.
 

lithy

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It's not complicated. If you're making your money in a country, you should be paying the tax in that country on what you made.

Except that you pay tax on what you made, then tax on what you spend, and if you don't spend it, tax on what you made from investing it, and your employer paid tax on what you made and tax on what you produce. The layers and onerous regulations of the various taxing and fee bodies means that it isn't as simple as saying, "Pay 15% of your income to fund the government.". As evidenced, by the 'new' information in these documents, the more convoluted the system, the more effort it is worth expending for the wealthy to find creative (and largely legal, even if some thing it is unethical) ways to shield as much as possible from the tax collector. And the ones that lose out in this system are those without significant resources who face the same system and pay the going rate.

Because you make that money taking advantage of the basic public facilities provided by that country's infrastructure: roads/bridges, water, power grids, security, education, etc. etc. etc. All things that need to be maintained, supported and improved upon through research and development for the public good.

A classic argument from a good little citizen. The government provides, so you must submit. You have never stopped to think what might happen if the government did not provide those things? You think no alternatives exist. Government roads or no roads at all is the thinking of someone who knows no other life than the one the bureaucrat grants through their benevolence and your tax dollars. This is why no government program ever ends.

And no, private interests cannot be trusted to do the job without significant oversight.

And your evidence is? The best way to improve the overall position of everyone is wealth creation and freedom. Funding a system of bureaucratic largesse only allows the government to be the arbiter of winners and losers.

Why are you taxed on what you made, when you’re also taxed on what you spend, and soon, what you might make (but haven’t; simply to freak out crypto coin investors who might get rich overnight).

A consumption tax would be fine to me. If we have a government set up from top to bottom in a way that laser focuses legal, police, market protections on the rich, why are the poor and middle class paying? Why are, for example, black people obligated to pay income or property taxes when the country on just about every level ignores them?

Something needs to change. The government is overtaxing people for what the government provides, so that it can piss the lions share away from theb98%. most of our tax code has been used to facilitate massive wealth transfers from the middle class to the rich, to foreign nations demanding tribute, to police acting as prison guards, etc.

Let’s not completely go all-in on the status quo.

A thing we largely agree on.

Tax wealth.
-Not income.
-Not consumption.

If the fundamental purpose of goverment is to protect wealth, then wealth shall pay for it.

Well since that isn't the fundamental role of government, we can happily dismiss your ridiculous idea.
 

SML

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But apparently not a lot of US people were involved, because it’s cheaper to just use the US legal system.
We are the tax shelter now.

My father in law died earlier this year and my mother in law just cut us a check from his life insurance. We were all in the dark about the tax situation, wondering if we should be spacing smaller checks, etc.

When I looked up what the lifetime gifting limit currently sits at I laughed my ass off.
 
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Lagduf

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'Hide', as if governments have a right to it or would do anything better with it.

This is why Biden had to pressure the G8 (7? 6? 9?) to raise corporate tax rates in concert with the US. Turns out market forced work on governments too.

I haven’t read too far in to these documents yet, but I’m guessing the leak is an attempt to draw attention to perceived unfairness (ie not paying taxes) but given the documents are about a number of foreign leaders it’s almost certain some of these people are actually stealing or laundering public money for private gain.

I think the problem for most is that we don’t have the wealth to game the system like they do. If I want to flip the bird to the IRS I can do so, but eventually it will be from inside the slammer.
 

Lagduf

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As a reminder in the USA the BATFE (with an assist from the FBI and US Marshalls!) will murder you for failure to pay taxes required under the National Firearm Act of 1934.

Okay, I’m being a bit disingenuous, but still.
 
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Xavier

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There was a similar leak 5-6 years ago, wasn't it called the same thing?
Is this just the updated 2021 version? There was different one a few years before that.
A couple months ago a research paper showed how the rich harbor a vast majority of their money in assets that are not taxed.
Nothings changed in the last ten years,
It's just goes to prove what everyone has known for awhile.
In fact there's tons of bootlickers that defend it.

Consumption tax?
Don't we already have a sales tax?
Even that can be unfair when you break it down.
Still your not talking about that big a difference, at some point q person can only consume so much.

First you need to concentrate on large companies, the corporate tax rate.
Then you can worry about individuals (whales).
WHy do you rob banks? Because that's were the monies at.

Not only does a tax system need to be fair it has to be done in a way that brings back cash and spurs reinvestment in business, employees, infrastructure, research and development.

That last Trump tax break shows if fact the exact opposite thing happens.

The first step to rehabilitation is to admit you have a problem.
Society has to come to the realization that 40 years of Neo-Liberalism, Supply Side economics (aka Trickle down theory) doesn't work.
Corporatism is not the solution, they don't have our best interest at heart. They exist for one reason only, to make as much money as possible (hopefully legally)

A large percent of the affluent are not really that much better or smarter than the rest of us. Most are born into that position others get lucky.
Don't get me wrong recent events have proven to me there's no shortage of idiots in the general population.

In reality we encourage and love it when people live beyond their means and despise it when they don't and the possibility of upward mobility presents itself to them. It's the modern day equivalency of supremacy and slavery.

There was a WSJ article a week or so ago that talked about how a bunch of people have brought down expenses since the pandemic. and telework has become more prevalent, Employers are now trying to argue that salaries should go down because they don't have to rent that apartment in San Fransisco anymore.
 

lithy

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I haven’t read too far in to these documents yet, but I’m guessing the leak is an attempt to draw attention to perceived unfairness (ie not paying taxes)

Draw attention for what purpose?

given the documents are about a number of foreign leaders it’s almost certain some of these people are actually stealing or laundering public money for private gain.

Which is, of course, an argument against further expansion and centralization of power in strong national governments. But the internal argument will be that the US Federal government can 'fix' problems like this for us.

I think the problem for most is that we don’t have the wealth to game the system like they do. If I want to flip the bird to the IRS I can do so, but eventually it will be from inside the slammer.

Which I'd say is not a problem with the wealth as much as it is a problem with the system.

First you need to concentrate on large companies, the corporate tax rate.
Then you can worry about individuals (whales).
WHy do you rob banks? Because that's were the monies at.

Jesus, at least you're open about it I guess.
 

Lagduf

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Draw attention for what purpose?

Unknown. To have their grievances addressed? Push for change RE: taxation in their country.

There is certainly a desire in America for the tax code to be overhauled when we citizens are paying 25% of income or more as taxes and we hear corporations are paying none or less than us. Whether that is factually true is another matter, but perception is the editor of reality.
 
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