Neo Geo Shop Sign

[massimiliano]

Massi: that's the correct theory, given Jult the 1st, 1991, marks the Japanese domestic re-launch of the NEO•GEO for consumer sale market. BUT we know SNK had in fact effectively killed the rental narket as for the end of 1990 already, AND the 'rental' labelling on AES games lasted just for the very first four releases, namely not longer than a single month in 1990...

Yeah, it is hard to say for sure when the rental "flywheel" stopped* ...the proper statement would be, rental started in April 90 and a huge relaunch (or better a *for sale games price drop*) was announced to happen on July 1st 91.

I do have material talking about both options available ("rent OR buy neogeo!" Slogan) and given the pre-neogeo SNK logo on it, sounds likely to be very early 1990.

So to say the price lists we have seen in publications from 1990 (later being discounted, along with the console in July 1991) referenced to "for sale" items, that were meant/available since day one, I think this is consolidated knowledge.

*As pointed by Fraz, the rent period probably lived within the first batch of titles release time-line (as said, the ones with the rental logo...after which, simply no more rental initiative)

 

[Shito]

Isn't it the first 5 releases Shito ?

You are right, I was forgetting Top Player Golf was just delayed in distribution, but actually announced (and supposedly produced) altogether the actual 4 first NG titles. And, indeed it sports the clear label "超ド級レンタルゲーム「ネオジオ」" (Superdreadnought Rental VideoGame NEOè†￾EO) on its spine. Thank you for your correction. :-)

Massi: it is interesting you have some paper materials with both rental and buy option for the NeoGeo. Come to think about it, maybe I have some too (in scanned form, at least). Supposedly, the NEO•GEO was launched for commercial sale -> consumer rent. I.E. the supposed 'buyer' of the system were the rental shop owners, right? Operators, one may say. But, and this is my guessing again, despite the fact the the original sale price of the NEOè†￾EO was that of a 'commercial rental commodity' tag, some die-hard (and fairly rich) gamers just preferred to buy the system (and some games) outright, maybe after a first trial renting. So, guess SNK was just kinda forced first to introduce a quiet consumer sale policy along the renting one, than to silently abandon the rental market, and finally to kill it, by re-launching the NEOè†￾EO for pure consumer sale purpose, with a lowered (yet still premium) price tag.

What do you think? :-)

 

[massimiliano]

You are right, I was forgetting Top Player Golf was just delayed in distribution, but actually announced (and supposedly produced) altogether the actual 4 first NG titles. And, indeed it sports the clear label "超ド級レンタルゲーム「ネオジオ」" (Superdreadnought Rental VideoGame NEOè†￾EO) on its spine. Thank you for your correction. :-)

Massi: it is interesting you have some paper materials with both rental and buy option for the NeoGeo. Come to think about it, maybe I have some too (in scanned form, at least). Supposedly, the NEO•GEO was launched for commercial sale -> consumer rent. I.E. the supposed 'buyer' of the system were the rental shop owners, right? Operators, one may say. But, and this is my guessing again, despite the fact the the original sale price of the NEOè†￾EO was that of a 'commercial rental commodity' tag, some die-hard (and fairly rich) gamers just preferred to buy the system (and some games) outright, maybe after a first trial renting. So, guess SNK was just kinda forced first to introduce a quiet consumer sale policy along the renting one, than to silently abandon the rental market, and finally to kill it, by re-launching the NEOè†￾EO for pure consumer sale purpose, with a lowered (yet still premium) price tag.

What do you think? :-)

Ok, please follow me for a second, for how difficult it is, I'm trying to keep aside "conjectures" (read: what may "make sense" for me but I cannot prove trough material) as possible and just stick to the material I have seen:

Here is what I think:

-April 1990, NeoGeo lauch, MVS+Home Console for sale AND rent simultaneously, from day one. Price for home console is 58.000 and full price, same as MVS, for Carton Boxes games.
-Rental initiative dies quickly, basically following the 5 "rental logo" games period.
-"for sale" home console and games full price kept until July 1st 1991.
-July 1st 1991 big announce, showing transition from previous "for sale" prices to new "for sale" prices (instead of the proposed "from old rental operator prices to new end users prices")

Just for the sake of looking at this from different prospective, I would ask you for a second to fit the information you have following this logic, instead of giving for granted that rental did necessarily happened before a for sale phase in mutual exclusion.

 

[Shito]

Everything you write is most likely true, yet we still have to confirm that NEO•GEO was intented, or even officially allowed, to consumer sale from its very beginning. Of course the systems and games were on sale at their launch in 1990, but have we any official material stating that was not intended for operator use only?

I say that just because the first five titles sports the label RENTAL on both spine and manuals, and that's a fact also. If the system was intended to be sold to consumer public from its very start, thus being a "also rental" product, not a "(just) rental product", how would explain that?

 

[BlackaneseNiNjA]

Everything you write is most likely true, yet we still have to confirm that NEO•GEO was intented, or even officially allowed, to consumer sale from its very beginning. Of course the systems and games were on sale at their launch in 1990, but have we any official material stating that was not intended for operator use only?

I say that just because the first five titles sports the label RENTAL on both spine and manuals, and that's a fact also. If the system was intended to be sold to consumer public from its very start, thus being a "also rental" product, not a "(just) rental product", how would explain that?

This is correct. When the home console went on sale to consumers, a campaign called the "Neo Geo Rental System" service launched for rental video shops and gamecenters alongside it.

EDIT 2: Also wanted to add that although video game rentals were basically illegal in japan, permission for rental could still be granted by the copyright holders. SNK was one such entity that granted/allowed this.

EDIT 1: Added information source.

Source: "Neo Geo no subete". 1993. "The History of SNK", pg 82. Publisher: "Hippon Super!".

 

[massimiliano]

Everything you write is most likely true, yet we still have to confirm that NEOè†￾EO was intented, or even officially allowed, to consumer sale from its very beginning. Of course the systems and games were on sale at their launch in 1990, but have we any official material stating that was not intended for operator use only?

I share your concern, but playing the devil's advocate for a second, I have no explicit "Rental only pricelist" or "Pricelist for Rental Operators" statement either... what I have is the same price lists trough 1990, eventually put side-by-side with the 7/1'91 new price list..that's why I started reconsidering everything from another angle recently.

I say that just because the first five titles sports the label RENTAL on both spine and manuals, and that's a fact also. If the system was intended to be sold to consumer public from its very start, thus being a "also rental" product, not a "(just) rental product", how would explain that?

That's why I put the carton boxes straight on April 1990, that's the "for sale" version you are looking for.

(i.e. is there any document showing the re-packaging actually happened in 1991? ...bear with me for a second)

 

[massimiliano]

This is correct. When the home console went on sale to consumers, a campaign called the "Neo Geo Rental System" service launched for rental video shops and gamecenters alongside it.

EDIT 2: Also wanted to add that although video game rentals were basically illegal in japan, permission for rental could still be granted by the copyright holders. SNK was one such entity that granted/allowed this.

EDIT 1: Added information source.

Source: "Neo Geo no subete". 1993. "The History of SNK", pg 82. Publisher: "Hippon Super!".

Thanks, so the point worth discussing would be indeed about the rental campaign being in parallel with "for sale" retail since day one and about the price lists available on Gamest since 1990, with the subsequent price drop happened in July.


As stated in the other thread, I really like your interest (especially because you always report your sources), as you may understand both me and Shito discussed this a lot trough the years and another contributor is always welcome.

What I found dangerous in this kind of analysis is filling the gaps with conjectures (as said "what may "make sense" to us, what is "probable" or "likely")

My attempt is to reconsider from a different angle the timeline, using only material we can read/comment.

Edit:

this is the page mentioned:

Edit 2:

My Japanese reading skills are not good but from what i can understand:
-Rental campaign along regular "for sale" campaign
-July 1st 1991 , "neogeo becomes cheaper", a huge price drop "approaching the user" introducing a sustainable "cost/performance" benefit)

Please let's try to translate for good the page, I may be of course, wrong.

 

[BlackaneseNiNjA]

Thanks, the rental campaign is not in discussion, the point is about being in parallel with "for sale" retail since day one and about the price lists available on Gamest since 1990, with the subsequent price drop happened in July.


As stated in the other thread, I really like your interest (especially because you always report your sources), as you may understand both me and Shito discussed this a lot trough the years and another contributor is always welcome.

What I found dangerous in this kind of analysis is filling the gaps with conjectures (as said "what may "make sense" to us, what is "probable" or "likely")

My attempt is to reconsider from a different angle the timeline, using only material we can read/comment.

Thanks massimiliano. Good point and great approach. Your proposed timeline looks solid and matches up with information that I have on my end as well. Your japanese isn't off. That is a decent translation for the data point you were looking for I'd say. imho your theory stands well validated from this end considering the other facts you previously confirmed.

 

[frazer99]

Thanks Massi, Shito and BlackaneseNiNjA, feels like we are narrowing this down. The early years are the least well documented and I would like to understand a clearer picture/timeline of this period which is evidence based, it does feel like this is becoming clearer with your contributions.

 

[massimiliano]

Thanks massimiliano. Good point and great approach. Your proposed timeline looks solid and matches up with information that I have on my end as well. Your japanese isn't off. That is a decent translation for the data point you were looking for I'd say. imho your theory stands well validated from this end considering the other facts you previously confirmed.

Thanks for confirming the translation.

There is only one thing that keeps bothering me, and it is the carton boxes.
My understanding until now, was that they happened along with the price drop...I do have pictures of the new neogeo console Japanese owners (neogeo club magazine n.5, 8 man cover, *probably* around August1991, right after the big price drop) , holding carton boxes indeed.
That would answer my question in a couple of posts above "do we have proof the repackaging happened in 1991?".

So if the carton boxes have been introduced in July 1991 as a cheaper version (to differentiate them from the already available full-price games, and just for that brief period).....the only package for those 5 games, available "for sale" in 1990 would have been still the plastic with rental logo (as we do not have i.e. a plastic Nam, with regular spine logo)

I see how this would lead to ipso-facto "hence there had to be a rental only period, at least for those 5 games" but this is the very point/logic I'm trying to reconsider in this thread, so I think it would be worth considering other possibilities.

Edit:
I.e., in April 1990 you (end-user) bought, regularly, the first 5 games (which had the Rental logo) at the price listed in the advertisement (end-user price).

***speculation*** to avoid rental legal restrictions/issues, SNK had to print the rental logo on all the games, so they could also do rental. **/speculation***

 

[Shito]

(i.e. is there any document showing the re-packaging actually happened in 1991? ...bear with me for a second)

Oh, yes we have, YOU have, actually. ;-)

As you can see: "ニューパッケジでいっきに発場" - "direct arrival with new packages". And you see those are the carton boxes (Majaan Kyouretsuden is clear on that, for its totally different color).

The fact that the carton boxes were *intentionally used* as the 'new packages' for the NEO•GEO games on its consumer sale re-launch is well documented. That goes without saying, actually, for the five games only released with carton box where actually the five 'new releases' for that very re-launch day. :-)

The only big mystery rest with Minasan no Okagesama Desu!. Was it EVER released PRIOR to 7/1? Was its plastic-box-Monolith-label editiona "rental" release, possibly just delayed?

If we see flyer last page:

Seems like Minsan was already on the marked when the 'carton box only' titles debuted.

Yet:

In the famous 'relaunch AD', Minasan is treated as a new release. :-/

----

Also, I found those ADs were both 'rental' and 'sale' for the NEO•GEO system and games are mentioned. But at that time (late 1990), below the NeoGeo logo, the 'rental' label had already gone.

I.E. :

or, early 1991:

but if you go back to the very first printed materials, you found a nice 'rental game' printed below the NEO•GEO logo:

And the AD says:

レンタルで、手にせよ。
超ド級のゲーム·ワールドが、
レンタル·ビデ店、
ゲームセンターで待っている。

Which translate as:

Through rental, put your hands on it.
The superdreadnought game world
awaits (you) in video rental shops
and game centers.

(I never located the 'NEO•GEO t-shirt' whose campaign is advertised in the little red box, though...)

Also:

4月28日、レンタル•ビデオ店、ゲームセンターで、レンタル開始。

On 4/28, in video rental shops and game centers, rental starts.


----

As you can see, in those early flyers, rental is not just one option: it is the only advertised and supposed way to acquire the NEO•GEO system.

All of that given, it seems pretty clear to me that at its debut, say the very system and the first five game titles release, the NEO•GEO has been marketed and advertised as a RENTAL only) home video game system. :-)

 

[massimiliano]

Thanks Shito, I completely forgot about that picture I posted ...as I mentioned early, there are other pictures (from the club magazine again) showing the repackaging in 7/1, so this definitively seal the repackaging moment.

Now, your posts shows the rental campaing in early 1990 and we all agree in this.

You also brought the pricelist SNK itself published on their website (25th anniversary IIRC) I was referring too (Gamest, Club magazine, same ones)

That confirms official end-user "for sale" game prices *before* the new package occurred (hence, they were officially selling the plastic boxes despite the rental logo)

going backwards, at this point very few months after debut, you show the rental campaing (which doesn't yet exclude a for sale regular operation, again for the sake of the conversation)

Now, my question is, is there any end-iser pricelist from April/May Gamest showing the console and game price? (likely only for first few games?)

If yes, that could simply mean retail sale was present at day one and continued trough 1990.
If not, we can say there is no trace/proof of retail sale (of rental logo games) until at least late summer 1990 (anyway, way before the so far supposed "official" for sale campaing of 7/91, that actually happened almost a year before, when the pricelist (for end-users, not rental operators) started circulating.

In summary, the only open point seems to confirm retail sales were present or not in just the first 3 months?

 

[BlackaneseNiNjA]

Nice, Shito! So although the neo geo could be purchased and rented in 1990 according to the book, the initial option was rental until sometime in late 1990 it appears. Although it is possible that direct consumer sales were still taking place in those early months for those who could afford it, even though the primary marketing initiaive was to push the rentals.

EDIT: Saw that massi beat me to the post lol I added a point about possible direct consumer sales despite the marketing material.

 

[massimiliano]

I think a point we can all agree on is tracing back official sales (as documented by end-user pricelists) almost a year before the commonly referred "retail introduction" of July, which was a price drop manouvre to incentivate those sales.

@Shito, this is kinda important, as compared to what assumed earlier, also in this thread, would mean an officially advertised sales cycle (happening earlier) instead of rental-operators price-lists used by "early adopters" end-users accessing the rental games somehow.

 

[frazer99]

Shito/Massi/BlackaneseNiNjA, if we assume carton boxes were produced ready for the 1991 re-launch then what was the rationale for reverting back to the plastic cases. It is suggested this is because the carton games were too easily damaged, but do we have any facts?

 

[Shito]

We don't.

As a matter of facts, AFTER the 7/1 full relaunch of the system, when 11+1 re-released (I'm somewain counting Minasan in) and 5 newly released carton box title were also made available, the very first NEO·GEO subsequent new release, namely Burning Fight, released on August 09, was already back to plastic box. Also, out of the carton box re-printed games, we know for sure that two of them (Magician Lord and Baseball Stars), had another subsequent re-release again in PLASTIC box (but, with update insert).

One may easily assume SNK had the strict necessity to initially set apart the new 'consumer sale' software products and the former 'originally rental' soft products, for their respective price were very different, and of course quite a lot of dealers still had some stock in house I guess.

 

[frazer99]

We don't.

As a matter of facts, AFTER the 7/1 full relaunch of the system, when 11+1 re-released (I'm somewain counting Minasan in) and 5 newly released carton box title were also made available, the very first NEO·GEO subsequent new release, namely Burning Fight, released on August 09, was already back to plastic box. Also, out of the carton box re-printed games, we know for sure that two of them (Magician Lord and Baseball Stars), had another subsequent re-release again in PLASTIC box (but, with update insert).

One may easily assume SNK had the strict necessity to initially set apart the new 'consumer sale' software products and the former 'originally rental' soft products, for their respective price were very different, and of course quite a lot of dealers still had some stock in house I guess.

Thanks Shito. Massi and I have discussed this point about SNK making the distinction between the previous higher price games and the new carton re-releases. This would seem plausible. Do you have any details on the revised inserts for Magician lord and Baseball Stars? What were the differences?

Thanks,
Frazer

 

[massimiliano]

We don't.

One may easily assume SNK had the strict necessity to initially set apart the new 'consumer sale' software products and the former 'originally rental' soft products, for their respective price were very different, and of course quite a lot of dealers still had some stock in house I guess.

That was exactly my thought as well... keeping it in the realm of speculations, one could stretch a bit and say SNK ended with certain minimum amount of carton units to produce, so they threw KoTM and the others in the carton box run...(Philip K. Dick scenario)

Anyway, my personal feeling is that the carton boxes were a one shot thing, never intended to continue after solving the lower price vs old price issue on the shelf...so, to say, plastic has always been the reference packaging.

 

[xsq]

this is a good thread.

 

[BlackaneseNiNjA]

It looks like the current hypothesis is that the neo geo aes was only initially available for rent and then was made available for sale at retail afterwards. However, I want to submit the following flyer and observations on the above posted printed material:



Like the previously posted Cyber Lip ad, the bottom of the flyer states that the neo geo is presently available for rent at game centers and video rental shops. However, I want to draw attention to the statement that appears directly below this claim. Appearing between the parenthesis in the ad, in small text it says that the unit is also currently available for purchase. Normally in japanese you would use "発売中" to indicate that there is a new item/product available for sale. However, the ad uses "販売中" which simply implies that the item is being sold and usually removes the connotation of the item being a newly available market offering (Note: This same statement also appears to be present in the Cyber Lip ad posted above). I do not think that this would be the case if the unit was available only as a rental machine, but then recently became available for purchase.

In addition to featuring pre-pricedrop prices for a few other titles and the console itself, much of this ad is showcasing Riding Hero and although the text is small, it appears that the ad is stating that the game is due to be released sometime during july. This would place the ad between april and june of 1990 (before the late 1990's Cyber Lip ad).

Even though "Rental Game" is present in the early ads posted above, the red text to the right of the logo also appears to indicate that the console was also available for sale ("販売") as opposed to just rental:



I would like to submit that the neo geo was available for purchase and rent at launch, but the initial advertising focus was on pushing the rental campaign since a majority of consumers would have been unable to purchase the product at the original price point. This would have positioned the neo geo as a "rental only" unit to your average consumer, but the purchase option was always available to individuals who could afford the high pricetag. Afterwards, prices were dropped and the neo geo was officially sold and marketed as a consumer product alongside the price drop in 1991.

At the very least, the Riding Hero ad depicts the appearance of cart prices as early as june 1990.

I hope a lot of that made some sense. I have a headache now from reading all that blurry tiny japanese text . Let me know what you think.

 

[frazer99]

BlackaneseNiNjA - many thanks for your summary and assessment of the advertisements - appreciate your time translating these! I agree, it seems to me whilst in the very early days SNK promoted the NeoGeo as a rental system, there was no barrier (other than a financial one) to consumers purchasing the system and games. The advertising focus later shifted away from renting, the assumption is that the rental venture was not particularly successful and SNK concentrated on promoting the NeoGeo as a consumer console with the subsequent 1991 price drop a drive to secure more of the home console market.

 

[massimiliano]

Thanks Blackaneseninja, that seems to match with the subete book (which was after all printed in 1993).

Those ads comes (among others) from Gamest magazine, which was by then a monthly publication.

I do have all the relevant 1990 issues, and I was just putting the ads in the correct timeline, so that would seal any question about "when".

Edit:
re-thinking about everything, it seems crucial to identify advertisement and reviews with a proper timestamp.

Without knowing dates for certain, it still could be possible that the initial MS+rental idea quickly changed.

It seems clear now, that the console and games have been officially sold just few months after the launch of the platform.

As mentioned, I'm going trough Gamest magazine all over again, so we can be sure about what/when.