Just your seasonal Savage Reign thread or Master Fuun Ken in 48 hrs

[COMEDISDEGNO]

(Tak, get in here and open your shrine of wisdom )

Continuing in the series of old unloved games analysis. SR never convinced me; 'a worthy effort, but futile'.
Being particularly bored and having lost tons of material with the crash of my computer i needed a change, picked he game up again, and, looking at it with new eyes, i've discovered it's not as appaling as i thought back in '97.

More than decent graphics, a taste for particulars, a couple of great backgrounds, all the chars and moves and stances and basics that made Kizuna the great game it is.

I started digging into the combo system, mainly with Eagle and Hayate, and would like to share with you some impressions.


Afaik, no pursuits, no air combos, most probably no juggles. FBs and specials regularly knock down the opponent, there don't seem to be many chances to link. The C weapon attack seems highly unuseful, it seems impossible to connect something after or before it.

What the game is all about til now are ground chains.
Somehow like Kizuna, you can connect stuff into a weak-to-strong string by pressing buttons fluidly.

Unfortunately, the collision system is quite awkard; any time you hit the enemy he'll be unvulnerable for a tad, meaning that an early attack won't connect. Not only, but in many cases the stunned char will recover from the unvulnerable condition without leaving a single frame to connect something.
The better example are the jumping C attacks: they'll stun the opponent for quite long, meaning that any followup will just whiff. If you wait long enough, you'll simply find out that the enemy will be able to block again.

This is all quite confused, frankly; certain combos are granted to work, other not, without hints of logic.

Anyway, back to the engine. Weak A or B, attacks, high or low, can be connected without limitations as long as you alternate them. Connecting 3 hits is quite easy, it might be possible to combo 4 but it's still uncertain.

Connecting the same kind of weak attack multiple times (st wA...) may be possible, i performed it several times, but the logic behind it is beyond me. No clues about the required timing, there may be a trick, i'll have to check.

Chains should be concluded with a strong A or B attack (no matter if high, low, close, far, same or different button of the previos weak attack). Doing this is quite easy, right as a weak attack starts press and keep pressed A or B.

You can't chain anything after a strong A or B. Better said, you can chain a C but, at least with Hayate and Eagle, it won't connect, too slow.

Ex: st cl wB -> st cl wA -> cr wB -> st far sA

Chains aren't the only way to combo normals. Links are possible, like

st cl sA (2) -> st far wB

with Eagle.

Then, of course, specials and DMs. Nothing to say here, same old story, just beware that only very few moves can combo after a strong A\B, and none after a C (remember i'm referring to Hayate and Eagle only). Timing is often tricky, too.


Too much theory, now on to practice. A couple of verified and 99% granted to work combos (a friend of mine was blocking, but you can never tell; in brackets the char they've been performed against, just in case it matters):

HAYATE (vs Gordon, energy bar on red, no need to be in the corner) jump forward sB, st cl wB, st cl wA, st far wB, st far sB, DIZZY, get close, st cl sB (2), qcb,hcf+A (DM) --- 100% damage

Quite easy, the only tricky bit is connecting after the air sB.

EAGLE (vs King Lion, corner) jump forward sB, st cl sA (2), st far wB, cr sA, DIZZY, get closer, jump frward sA, st cl wA, st cl sA (2), qcf,uf+B --- 99% damage, just spit in the enemy's eyes to kill him.

The first segment isn't that hard, just keep tapping B after the strong A and be ready to cancel in the crouching attack. The second part is another level, as comboing the Eagle Kick after the second hit of the strong A is a pain, something like a 2-3 frames windows. Good luck...




Random stuff:

- cross-ups are possible
- you can't cancel into fireballs or qcf+AB dashes or stuff
- it should be possible to use the plane shifting attacks as combo starters
- stage hazzards are there for a purpose, a whole world of suprises may be awaiting

Disclaimer: highly volatile material, for the most part superficially tested, and lots of quick assumptions by me - use with care.

 

[Takumaji]

heh

Good stuff, man. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. iirc, there are some juggles, and plane shifts can be used to start combos but only as some sort of semi-counter, your opponent must do a whiffed special with lower prio than your plane attack while you fly towards him. Timing is weird, and surprisingly not very consistent. I don't know what values the engine uses for the calculation of combo frames, but in case of plane shifts, nothing is fixed, so any combos/follow-ups are mere glitches. Try Carol or Chun and their plane shifts... crazy.

My main weapons are chains + specials... I'm pretty much a Gozu+Mezu whore, and I love stopping fierce jumping attacks with well-placed heavy weapon throws (ABC). These fuckers have evil priority anway.

I use long dashes (db,f,f) against the CPU from time to time, but avoid building strats around them for 2P battles because it's too obvious (and quite dangerous considering SR's damage ratio).

I'm also quite sure that you can connect 4 weak attacks but don't quote me on that.

man... heh, will break out the game tonight and lurk for a buddy to do some sparring. SR is a lil' rough, but it's fun to no end. Love the cheesy character designs.

 

[Sky_R]

Savage Reign is nothing out of the extrodinary yes I can see where you feel that way about it. But honestly, lets look at how it plays, like a cross between old fatal fury series and art of fighting- honestly if your dissing this you myswell be the pathetic war-hero geezer who sits around the poker table with his buddies just to hear himself bitch about nothing. I'm more fascinated with what the system can do with WHAT LIMITED features it has. A very outstanding game for being so limited.

 

[Takumaji]

Ok, re-confirmed a few things about Gozu/general engine features.

You can combo off of a plane attack if you push your opp. into a corner with it. Say Gozu vs. Gordon, you on the ground, Gordon above you to your right. Immediately when he moves or gets ready for an attack, plane-attack him with f+D (don't push b+D or Gozu will jump to the wrong side), then hit him with a weak sA at the very last moment and start tapping A for Gozu's multi-hit move, all moves should combo.

I couldn't combo into anything off of a super plane attack (f,qcb+D) but it should work with the big-jump attack (d,u+D).

Comboing into/out of a sC double-hit normal belongs to Gozu's b'n'b toolbox. The sC also rerverses normal projectiles. Needs a bit of anticipation and planning but can be a very mean way of starting combos Rose-style, deflect fireball, wait a tic, super-dash in, let the projectile hit and continue with b+B -> qcf,uf+C (or charge db,f+tap A DM when life bar is flashing red).

There are a lot of weird rules for aerial combat, for ex. when both opps. do a plane attack, this is where I think a juggle would be possible.

What's more, you can break out of a blocked attack with a (very quick) f+A but I always found that quite tricky.

Gozu's kicks are very usefull, yet remain a mystery. Word has it that you can link up to three (!) strong kicks under certain conditions, and at least I managed to pull of two in a row. I have no idea how to connect a third one.

Yo... more to come, have to try a few things with his specials, will keep you updated.

 

[COMEDISDEGNO]

As always great material to work with, thanks a lot, gonna test some more tonight.

A correction to my previous post: you can't chain normally into a C weapon attack, but there's an interestig trick...

Cancelling ANY NORMAL (Cs included) into a weapon special move (say, Joker's hcb,f+BC, Eagle's hcf+BC, Hayate's f,b,f+BC or dp+BC, Gozu's dp+BC) results in a chain, the special being substituted by a C. The cool thing is it will often combo, even out of weak jabs and kicks, like in this cases:

Hayate: st cl sB (1) -> dp+BC \ f,b,f+C (resulting in st cl sB -> st cl C)

Eagle: cr wA -> hcf+BC (= cr wA -> cr C)

As shown, the C used depends on the previous move: cancelling outta a crouching move leads to a crouching C, cancelling outta a standing move etc.


Another find: no particular techniques to combo multiple weak attacks of the same type, it all goes case by case and has to be performed like it was a series of linked moves (read, the good ol' tapping works amazingly well...).

Ex: Joker's st FAR wA or cr wA

Aka: st cl wB (to setup the far As), chain into st w far A, keep on tapping A to connect up to 3 more hits (for a total of 5, this when performed against big chars like Gordon and King).

A 100% combo: st cl wB, st far wA x4, cr sA, DIZZY, jump forward sB, cr A, d,db,d,qcf,uf+A (DM)

The second cr sA has to hit close, very close - otherwise the DM won't connect.

Some questions about your last post - tons of ideas and interesting points there, and tons of doubts to come along:

Ok, re-confirmed a few things about Gozu/general engine features.

You can combo off of a plane attack if you push your opp. into a corner with it. Say Gozu vs. Gordon, you on the ground, Gordon above you to your right. Immediately when he moves or gets ready for an attack, plane-attack him with f+D (don't push b+D or Gozu will jump to the wrong side), then hit him with a weak sA at the very last moment and start tapping A for Gozu's multi-hit move, all moves should combo.

Tried it, didn't worked. Maybe i didn't wait enough, and note that i performed it vs Carol...gonna test this more tonight.

Comboing into/out of a sC double-hit normal belongs to Gozu's b'n'b toolbox.

Care to explain? Comboing into it is possible, as i said, but outta it? I tried cancelling the first hit into a tap A or a qcf,uf+C but i was pushed back waaay too far...and to tell the truth i never managed to connect both hits of the far C...again, may be due to the dummy i used, Carol is so small-sized.

Or were you referring to linking something afterwards?

The sC also rerverses normal projectiles. Needs a bit of anticipation and planning but can be a very mean way of starting combos Rose-style, deflect fireball, wait a tic, super-dash in, let the projectile hit and continue with b+B -> qcf,uf+C (or charge db,f+tap A DM when life bar is flashing red).

Well, all C attacks can reverse projectiles (works wonders against King Leo). What i don't get is: how do you avoid knocking down the enemy? Reversed FBs have the same proprerties of normal ones, and as far as my poor experience goes (i've been playing it for no more than 4 days...) i've still to see one that doesn't knock down. There's a technique or did i simply miss THAT particular FB?

There are a lot of weird rules for aerial combat, for ex. when both opps. do a plane attack, this is where I think a juggle would be possible.

Still to witness one but i didn't test this enough. Anyway, juggling into what? Do only some moves work, are there particular timing requirements, stuff like this.

Gozu's kicks are very usefull, yet remain a mystery. Word has it that you can link up to three (!) strong kicks under certain conditions, and at least I managed to pull of two in a row. I have no idea how to connect a third one.

I know this will sound a bit retarded, sorry in advance, but the st cl wB looks the same as the strong version...at first i always confused the two, giving me the illusion of a 2 strong kicks combo...

Yo... more to come, have to try a few things with his specials, will keep you updated.

Waiting, you surely know your stuff, and there may be so much still to discover

 

[Takumaji]

[...] Some questions about your last post - tons of ideas and interesting points there, and tons of doubts to come along:

(plane combo)

Tried it, didn't worked. Maybe i didn't wait enough, and note that i performed it vs Carol...gonna test this more tonight.

I tried it with Gozu against Gordon, Mezu and Chung, and it worked (I'm 99% sure). The opp. has to stand near the corner on the other plane for it to work, and you only can use certain attacks after it. Ah, and you can also continue after Gozu's special plane attack (dp+D), which is really useful, btw. Also, try it with zig-zag plane shifting, you will see that the engine behaves differently in this case.

To be even more precise, I was in a stage where you actually have an upper level, not in one where you hang off of a bar (like Chun's stage with the chinese paper lamps).

(comboing into/out of Gozu's sC) Care to explain? Comboing into it is possible, as i said, but outta it? I tried cancelling the first hit into a tap A or a qcf,uf+C but i was pushed back waaay too far...and to tell the truth i never managed to connect both hits of the far C...again, may be due to the dummy i used, Carol is so small-sized.

You can cancel the 2nd hit, but only with Gozu's qcf,uf+C whirl, I did it several times and you clearly see the 2nd hit getting cancelled and the special comes out. I'm not sure, but this may only work if the 1st hit of the sC is the 3rd hit of a combo, so try it with initial jumping attack -> sC (cancel 2nd) -> qcf,uf+C, iirc, that's the combo I think I did.

Another thing, I know that that the C weapon attack only has one power level, but I usually tap C (instead of holding it) in combos like that, perhaps this has some further effect but I can't tell for sure. SR's engine sure is a bit wacky...

Currently, I'm playing around with buffering... what I want to do is to be able to consistently pull off the sC -> qcf,uf+C combo. At the mo I'm trying it with a quick qcf -> -> sC -> f,uf+C... no luck so far.

I've seen the cancel with my own two eyes. Perhaps I was crouching... hmm... okay, will try again!

Well, all C attacks can reverse projectiles (works wonders against King Leo). What i don't get is: how do you avoid knocking down the enemy? Reversed FBs have the same proprerties of normal ones, and as far as my poor experience goes (i've been playing it for no more than 4 days...) i've still to see one that doesn't knock down. There's a technique or did i simply miss THAT particular FB?

I think it's a matter of distance between you and your opp. When I experimented with the weapon throws, I was standing a a whole screen wide away, and used the same dummies as for the plane shift thing.


The (A)BC attacks knock down, but not all the time, and I based my experiments around this observation... I will have to confirm that my sparring partner didn't accidentally trigger anything like a recovery (dunno if it's in the game - there are throw-reversals, tho), if so, the whole thing may only work against an opp. who does a recovery, remotely similar to the additional combo options you get in the SF Alpha series if you reversal/cancel-hit an opponent who recovers immediately afterwards, say, Guile cancels a jumping Ryu with a crouching fierce, Ryu recovers at the wrong time and gets hit by a weak Sonic Boom within the same time frame, etc.

(juggling) Still to witness one but i didn't test this enough. Anyway, juggling into what? Do only some moves work, are there particular timing requirements, stuff like this.

Some moves can be pulled off in air shortly before landing or after getting pushed back by a special like Gozu's multi-hit tap. An example would be Gozu's and Mezu's qcf,uf+C.

Not that I've managed to juggle anything so far, but there's a theoretical chance of it to work, will try some plane shift setups, perhaps I find out something useful.

Also, notice Hayate's far strong sB, looks juggly to me. This is only based on assumptions, tho. I was practising with Hayate vs. Nicola, and once we provoked a situation where Nicola started a plane attack, got knocked out of it and floated in air for a fraction of a sec. while my Hayate touched the ground before her, and then I did a far strong sB and I swear I could have juggled her with it if I would have been quick enough.

It's rather difficult to reconstruct this setup again, but let's see what we can do.

I know this will sound a bit retarded, sorry in advance, but the st cl wB looks the same as the strong version...at first i always confused the two, giving me the illusion of a 2 strong kicks combo...

I know, I wasn't really precise, I meant the strong special kick db,f+B. When I started playing SR a few years ago, I always accidentally triggered it and believed that it would be an additional strong kick version. So far I managed to link two of them after a weak cA, but my sources say that it's possible to do THREE of them, which sounds unbelieveable because you could win any match with that, damage is quite high.

 

[COMEDISDEGNO]

I tried it with Gozu against Gordon, Mezu and Chung, and it worked (I'm 99% sure). The opp. has to stand near the corner on the other plane for it to work, and you only can use certain attacks after it. Ah, and you can also continue after Gozu's special plane attack (dp+D), which is really useful, btw. Also, try it with zig-zag plane shifting, you will see that the engine behaves differently in this case.

To be even more precise, I was in a stage where you actually have an upper level, not in one where you hang off of a bar (like Chun's stage with the chinese paper lamps).

Verified with Gozu, it's a breeze once you get the hang of it. As you said, just a matter of distance.

You can cancel the 2nd hit, but only with Gozu's qcf,uf+C whirl, I did it several times and you clearly see the 2nd hit getting cancelled and the special comes out. I'm not sure, but this may only work if the 1st hit of the sC is the 3rd hit of a combo, so try it with initial jumping attack -> sC (cancel 2nd) -> qcf,uf+C, iirc, that's the combo I think I did.

No luck. I still fail to see how 1) to connect both hits of the far C and 2) to avoid getting pushed too much backward - the qcf,uf+C has minimum range, you HAVE to be close to make it enter.
Can i ask you a favour? Would you be so kind to record me a brief inp with Kawaks, if you have the chance of course? This would help me way more to figure out the whole thing

SR's engine sure is a bit wacky...

Lol, quite reductive. SR probably achieved a new height of 'wackiness', up at the point of redefining the term in a new charming and personal meaning. This game is starting to strike my nerves.

Currently, I'm playing around with buffering... what I want to do is to be able to consistently pull off the sC -> qcf,uf+C combo. At the mo I'm trying it with a quick qcf -> -> sC -> f,uf+C... no luck so far.

I hope to be wrong, but i foresee we'll have no luck about this. A bit like Waku Waku 7, SR's cancelling seems to take place only if performed quite late, delaying the motion til the first move physically hits. The only way i can see buffering working is cancelling a quick normal into a DM, the length of the motion should help in this case...

I think it's a matter of distance between you and your opp. When I experimented with the weapon throws, I was standing a a whole screen wide away, and used the same dummies as for the plane shift thing.

The (A)BC attacks knock down, but not all the time, and I based my experiments around this observation... I will have to confirm that my sparring partner didn't accidentally trigger anything like a recovery (dunno if it's in the game - there are throw-reversals, tho), if so, the whole thing may only work against an opp. who does a recovery, remotely similar to the additional combo options you get in the SF Alpha series if you reversal/cancel-hit an opponent who recovers immediately afterwards, say, Guile cancels a jumping Ryu with a crouching fierce, Ryu recovers at the wrong time and gets hit by a weak Sonic Boom within the same time frame, etc.

Nope, no success here either
You can reverse only normal BCs (no special fireballs, they get negated), and after dozens of attempts with various couples of chars and changes of environments and setups i've still to witness a non-knocking down projectile.

And it's a shame really, this would be the only way to vary the otherwise straight and banal SR's combo system. I'll try the recovery thing as soon as i'll have the chance, but i doubt that there's such a feature, recovery is generally too fast to require something like that (unlike Kizuna, where performing certain moves on the get-up leads to a quicker recovery).

On a side note, i tried a trick like using a C attack both to reverse a FB and to hit the opponent at the same time (being quite close to the opponent, obviously), but it seems impossible.

Some moves can be pulled off in air shortly before landing or after getting pushed back by a special like Gozu's multi-hit tap. An example would be Gozu's and Mezu's qcf,uf+C.

Not that I've managed to juggle anything so far, but there's a theoretical chance of it to work, will try some plane shift setups, perhaps I find out something useful.

Also, notice Hayate's far strong sB, looks juggly to me. This is only based on assumptions, tho. I was practising with Hayate vs. Nicola, and once we provoked a situation where Nicola started a plane attack, got knocked out of it and floated in air for a fraction of a sec. while my Hayate touched the ground before her, and then I did a far strong sB and I swear I could have juggled her with it if I would have been quick enough.

It's rather difficult to reconstruct this setup again, but let's see what we can do.

If this wasn't the prequel to Kizuna i would spend more time on this, but considering how much rare 'true' juggles are in the second game (a game, no need to say, dozens times more combo oriented) i find hard to believe they exist at all in SR. Call me sceptic

I know, I wasn't really precise, I meant the strong special kick db,f+B. When I started playing SR a few years ago, I always accidentally triggered it and believed that it would be an additional strong kick version. So far I managed to link two of them after a weak cA, but my sources say that it's possible to do THREE of them, which sounds unbelieveable because you could win any match with that, damage is quite high.

Sorry, just wanted to make things clear, it's easy to fall in misunderstanding. Anyway, even if i had no success, i found this tech that could be of some help:

King Lion: st cl sB (1), cancel first hit in qcb,f+A\B, King Lion cancels the B at the first hit and performs a faster than normal punch with uber-quick recovery, continue with whatever you prefer (i found sweeps to work greatly, but it's even possible to walk forward a bit before attacking again)

Now, if Gozu had such a similar way to cancel a strong B...


PS: i always thought about Nicola as a boy...don't remember if i read it somewhere or what. And moreover, 'Nicola' should be a male name in russian. Not that it matters, in fact it'd be cool to have another girl in the roster.

 

[Takumaji]

No luck. I still fail to see how 1) to connect both hits of the far C and 2) to avoid getting pushed too much backward - the qcf,uf+C has minimum range, you HAVE to be close to make it enter.
Can i ask you a favour? Would you be so kind to record me a brief inp with Kawaks, if you have the chance of course? This would help me way more to figure out the whole thing

I've tried to reconstruct the whole thing... ...and now I'm not sure anymore as well. I could bet my Neo that I've seen the cancel of the 2nd sC into the Gothen, but I could only do it out of a cC, which would be a link as far as I can see.

Oh, and sorry, no Kawaks here yet, I'm playing the NGCD/cart version. Will see what I can do, tho.

(projectile knock-down) Nope, no success here either
You can reverse only normal BCs (no special fireballs, they get negated), and after dozens of attempts with various couples of chars and changes of environments and setups i've still to witness a non-knocking down projectile.

Not sure, but I guess I've found the answer last night, it's like this:

Both players on same level, at least a screen away -> player 2 plane-shifts -> player 1 walks/dashes forward and quickly pulls off a weapon throw -> player 2 arrives on the other plane and gets hit by the weapon -> player 1 pads the attack recovery of player 2 with a big plane shift (d,u+D) and does a follow-up/dizzy combo -> tEh winnah?

On a side note, i tried a trick like using a C attack both to reverse a FB and to hit the opponent at the same time (being quite close to the opponent, obviously), but it seems impossible.

Same here. Most C attacks come out dead slow so you need a bit of distance to your opp. anyway.

There are really very strange timing issues with the C attacks, sometimes they hit, then they don't in exactly the same situation. I think the tap/hold button systems is behind all this, it already gave the WH games a lot of strange effects. Perhaps the engine mixes up recovery times and other variables of taps and holds from time to time, at least this would explain some of SR's funny quirks.

If you play it for fun and exploration, it's quite cool, but I really would not want to play it competitively.

Some crazy SR vids would be cool, tho (hint, hint)...!

PS: i always thought about Nicola as a boy...don't remember if i read it somewhere or what. And moreover, 'Nicola' should be a male name in russian. Not that it matters, in fact it'd be cool to have another girl in the roster.

Her bio lists her/him as Russian (it doesn't say a word about gender), but the closest Russian male name I can think of would be "Nicolai", not sure if Nicola is really a male name, but that's not important anyway... interesting chara, but very dependend on his/her weapon attack IMO, no comparison to Gozu/Mezu/Hayate.

 

[COMEDISDEGNO]

Sorry for not answering before, i've been quite busy. I spent some more time testing without further finds or discoveries, so i decided to have a rest while concentrating on Kizuna.
Actually, the good news is i'm concluding the video...took me 18 months 18, starting from march 2003 when Kizuna vol.1 was concluded, and, not very humbly, i have to say i'm proud of the result. My only complaint is due to a certain repetivity of some combos and to the perhaps excessive use of corner. Just some more refinements, a quick revision...

I've tried to reconstruct the whole thing... ...and now I'm not sure anymore as well. I could bet my Neo that I've seen the cancel of the 2nd sC into the Gothen, but I could only do it out of a cC, which would be a link as far as I can see.

Oh, and sorry, no Kawaks here yet, I'm playing the NGCD/cart version. Will see what I can do, tho.

Thanks in advance
I well know that using emus doesn't make much sense when you've got the real thing under hands, but since Kawaks remains the easiest tool to record stuff...

(normal + deflected fireball at the same time) Same here. Most C attacks come out dead slow so you need a bit of distance to your opp. anyway.

In fact i expected that not to work, again taking Kizuna as a paragon. Kizuna's engine, unlike the majority of fighters out there, doesn't allow two moves to hit in the same frame, forcing them to follow a certain priorities' gerarchy. SR seems to follow the same principle, but more tests are required to be sure about it.

Some crazy SR vids would be cool, tho (hint, hint)...!

That would rock, but i doubt it's likely to happen in the near future. Lots of projects going on, most of them have been running for more than one year (we're slow as hell, i know), and starting a video from scratch would require much more analysis than this...
Anyway, why not? I'll go back to the game as soon as possible, keep me updated if you find something new and we'll work to concretize it

 

[Takumaji]

Sorry for not answering before, i've been quite busy.

Same here...

I well know that using emus doesn't make much sense when you've got the real thing under hands, but since Kawaks remains the easiest tool to record stuff...

Oh, it can be useful for vids and stuff like that.

Btw., I've talked to some ppl on a local gaming bbs (hardedge), and some of them claim to have pulled off that fabled sC cancel as well... at least this gives me a lil' bit of confidence that I didn't see things.... tho none of them could tell me how they did it. Perhaps it's just a weird glitch or one of those nifty tricks that need a very precise setup and I accidentally triggered it... ah well...

In fact i expected that not to work, again taking Kizuna as a paragon. Kizuna's engine, unlike the majority of fighters out there, doesn't allow two moves to hit in the same frame, forcing them to follow a certain priorities' gerarchy. SR seems to follow the same principle, but more tests are required to be sure about it.

SR's engine has some strange unpredictable features that seem to be centered around range and the # of hits of a combo or set of linked moves. I also noticed some weird priority issues, for ex. Gozu's/Mezu's Gothen (the air whirl) connects against a cornered opponent, and a few rounds later, in exactly the same situation, the engine seems to ignore the prio of this move and lets it hit thin air. The opp. would still get hit if he'd move but most ppl would probably use a weapon throw.

So personally, I wouldn't be so sure about specific details anymore, I think many things in SR aren't sat in stone.

That would rock, but i doubt it's likely to happen in the near future. Lots of projects going on, most of them have been running for more than one year (we're slow as hell, i know), and starting a video from scratch would require much more analysis than this...
Anyway, why not? I'll go back to the game as soon as possible, keep me updated if you find something new and we'll work to concretize it

Will do that. Looking forward to your stuff... I like what you guys have done with Kizuna, hidden gems like that simply need more publicity to show ppl that it's not just an insanely expensive collectors item, but also an excellent game that is well worth playing.

 

[COMEDISDEGNO]

Btw., I've talked to some ppl on a local gaming bbs (hardedge), and some of them claim to have pulled off that fabled sC cancel as well... at least this gives me a lil' bit of confidence that I didn't see things.... tho none of them could tell me how they did it. Perhaps it's just a weird glitch or one of those nifty tricks that need a very precise setup and I accidentally triggered it... ah well...

Hardedge.de...i used to lurk there every now and then 1 or 2 years ago, but since my german has always been a joke (not that my english is less rusty) and just got worse as time went by i ended forgetting about it.
Anyway, a link? Just for the sake of curiosity...



I'm still stuck with Gothen, tough. Verified that there's no way to gain enough range to make the move connect normally, i looked for some alternatives:

1) enemy cornered, Gozu a step away (so that he can perform the far double-hitting version of st C), enemy jumps, Gozu performs C, the first hit whiffs, the latter connects as the opponent lands.
Verified, it doesn't work, the enemy is hit in the air no matter which timing you choose. Moreover, after a quick valuation of distances, i came to the conclusion that a qcf,uf+C wouldn't connect anyway, too far away;

2) same as above but the opponent has to be out of the corner, jumping forward in order to let distance do what timing couldn't. Still to test but i doubt it'll work;

3) same as 1. but the opponent has to attack with a backward plane-shifting move rather than jumping. Guess what, the result is the same, there's no way to whiff the first hit and make the second connect on the ground;

4) similar as 1. and 3. but the two chars should be close. This way Gozu will perform the far version of C as long as the enemy stays on the other plane. The idea was to tap C as the opponent started the plane shift, but while this would solve the distance issue (being close, the Gothen would more probably connect...), the timing one still stands there, even worse to tell the truth: a far C comes out only during the very first frames of the plane shift...

5) here we go. Still no way to combo the Gothen but at least a method (a variation of point 2) to shorten distances and make something else possibly connect.
Enemy on the second plane, out of the corner, almost one screen away so that performing a normal D attack will make him land right in front of Gozu WITHOUT HITTING. Time the far C like seen above and the second slash should connect on the ground - continue with a TAP A for a possible combo.
This is the theory. The sad reality is, the enemy can block the Youen Ken, no exceptions here.


6) Still to check but, who knows, it may work. The enemy has to perform a forward-moving special\DM fast enough to make him get close to Gozu between the first and second hit of the Gothen. The move shall be interruptable allowing the C to hit. The first example coming to mind is no else than the Gothen itself...

An alternative: a move with long invulnerability time, time running out before the second hit of the C...

hidden gems like that simply need more publicity to show ppl that it's not just an insanely expensive collectors item, but also an excellent game that is well worth playing.

Sadly funny hearing this remark, like it wasn't a truth that should be of public domain...but frankly, who cares, you know cynism won't change things, to each his own, the old classic Collectors vs Players or whatever seasonal thread is just, deh, too old, too classic. Etc etc.

 

[Takumaji]

Hardedge.de...i used to lurk there every now and then 1 or 2 years ago, but since my german has always been a joke (not that my english is less rusty) and just got worse as time went by i ended forgetting about it.
Anyway, a link? Just for the sake of curiosity...

Sorry, no link, we were chatting. Meanwhile, I have installed Kawaks on my PC and I plan to record the Gothen cancel, if it's possible at all. A friend of mine agreed to support me on that.

A practise mode would be really helpful here. Do you know a way to turn off the damage in SR when playing it in Kawaks, for ex. by a cheat or something?

5) here we go. Still no way to combo the Gothen but at least a method (a variation of point 2) to shorten distances and make something else possibly connect.
Enemy on the second plane, out of the corner, almost one screen away so that performing a normal D attack will make him land right in front of Gozu WITHOUT HITTING. Time the far C like seen above and the second slash should connect on the ground - continue with a TAP A for a possible combo.
This is the theory. The sad reality is, the enemy can block the Youen Ken, no exceptions here.

Sounds interesting, at least this is a situation I was in a couple of times. Judging from the outcome of all your experiments, I guess I was wrong and the sC is not cancellable, maybe may opp.'s block was sloppy, or my eyes tricked me...?

Strange.

I still have some more ideas based on the things you've posted, will test them and report here.

Sadly funny hearing this remark, like it wasn't a truth that should be of public domain...but frankly, who cares, you know cynism won't change things, to each his own, the old classic Collectors vs Players or whatever seasonal thread is just, deh, too old, too classic. Etc etc.

Well, ppl tend to stereotype things. I know some collectors who can actually play their games, and others who never have touched most of their expensive collection and talk about manual baggies on internet message boards. Actually, it's no big deal for me because I don't buy the "collectors keep gamers from gaming" thing anyway, but in case of Kizuna, we're not talking about an expensive yet questionable "game" like Quiz Chibi, but about a really cool fighter that simply drowned in 1996's lineup of excellent releases.

Thing is, most ppl rate Kizuna as crap just because it's the epitome of Neo collector hybris, and that's bullshit IMO.

 

[COMEDISDEGNO]

Sorry, no link, we were chatting. Meanwhile, I have installed Kawaks on my PC and I plan to record the Gothen cancel, if it's possible at all. A friend of mine agreed to support me on that.

A practise mode would be really helpful here. Do you know a way to turn off the damage in SR when playing it in Kawaks, for ex. by a cheat or something?

You need a .dat file for the game, put it in the 'Cheats' subfolder, open the emu and go the proper menu. Unfortunately neogeo cheats seem to have disappeared from the net.
It was quite easy to find them about one year ago, this site had a comprehensive database available, but now as now, after losing gigas of data withe pc crash, i can't find anything for the sake of my life.
If i'm correct you can download MAME cheats and convert them to work with Kawaks\Nebula using a program, but don't trust me about it.
Try asking in the forum here:

http://cheat.retrogames.com

Anyway, in general i discourage the use of cheats, they're not necessary unless you need to unlock bosses.
Just stick with savestates and you should be fine.

Well, ppl tend to stereotype things. I know some collectors who can actually play their games, and others who never have touched most of their expensive collection and talk about manual baggies on internet message boards. Actually, it's no big deal for me because I don't buy the "collectors keep gamers from gaming" thing anyway, but in case of Kizuna, we're not talking about an expensive yet questionable "game" like Quiz Chibi, but about a really cool fighter that simply drowned in 1996's lineup of excellent releases.

Thing is, most ppl rate Kizuna as crap just because it's the epitome of Neo collector hybris, and that's bullshit IMO.

Clearly it's not a matter of black and white, cecity can be found on both sides, admitting that we can speak of sides - the mere term is reductive and eschatological, implying that people in the magical wonderful neo world has to join a cause or whatever, or that some sort of subtle war exist...utter bullshit, as you said.

Kizuna as a scapegoat, the thousand of bucks it costs as a monument to the superfluous, its monetary value inversely proportional to its gameplay one - an interesting point of view, that would explain lots of things.