Drawing new sprites --> huge cost issue?

[Phoenix Down]

This is something I've been curious about for a while now. I've heard numerous people state that SNK/Playmore cannot redraw sprites every year for game series (KoF, FF, AoF, SvC) because it would be too costly.

Basically my question is does drawing new sprites REALLY cost that much? You'd think from the way people say it that drawing new sprites is akin to a $120 million blockbuster movie production every time. Does it really take that long or is it really that expensive to redraw characters?

Now I realize that this is 13-year-old hardware I'm referring to, and if the games were $50 apiece I wouldn't even bring up the issue, but when I'm paying $325 for a homecart I personally think Playmore can 'afford' not to be lazy.

Comments/thoughts?

 

[FeelGood]

drawing a new sprite that will look good on screen takes time

time = money.

a lot of sprites = a lot of time = a lot of money.

 

[Takumaji]

Creating animated sprites is a tedious job that takes a lot of time. Then, if you have new sprites, you will have to re-adjust all the sprite collision routines/hit boxes which could totally de-balance a game if it's not done correctly. So, designing new sprites not only is a question of time/money because you simply can't put in completely new sprites in an old engine... there's more to it.

 

[Phoenix Down]

Takumaji:
Creating animated sprites is a tedious job that takes a lot of time. Then, if you have new sprites, you will have to re-adjust all the sprite collision routines/hit boxes which could totally de-balance a game if it's not done correctly. So, designing new sprites not only is a question of time/money because you simply can't put in completely new sprites in an old engine... there's more to it.

Ok, that makes sense at least. But then what actually gets changed in the different KoFs? A couple of moves are added/changed/removed, a few new backgrounds, maybe a few new characters, and that's it? I've seen expansion packs on the PC that have a lot more changes than that for a lot less than $325.

 

[Fran]

keep in mind that a new kof game

is not meant to impress you visually

and they certainly do not care about home carts much

i mean,they are not forcing you to buy it

and they know stupid neo - kof fanboys like me
are going to buy the game anyway

anyway
a new kof
is meant to be a succes in arcades

so,technically,their main focus should be the gameplay department


yeah

then you see kof 2002 and you start to ponder on things but thats another story

 

[Takumaji]

Phoenix Down:

Takumaji:
Creating animated sprites is a tedious job that takes a lot of time. Then, if you have new sprites, you will have to re-adjust all the sprite collision routines/hit boxes which could totally de-balance a game if it's not done correctly. So, designing new sprites not only is a question of time/money because you simply can't put in completely new sprites in an old engine... there's more to it.

Ok, that makes sense at least. But then what actually gets changed in the different KoFs? A couple of moves are added/changed/removed, a few new backgrounds, maybe a few new characters, and that's it? I've seen expansion packs on the PC that have a lot more changes than that for a lot less than $325.

Of course there are new moves every now and then, but if you examine them closely, you will see that most of them aren't exactly new, they almost always re-use bits of animations and move priorities of others. Then there are changes to game/move speed and priorities which can be implemented by simply modifying variables/move tables, that's a lot easier than actually putting in completely new stuff.

About your PC-expansion-pack example, well, keep in mind that a Neo game like KoF that still has bits of code from 1994 in it can't be compared to a more or less modular, object-oriented program code of modern PC games. I can almost see the spaghetti code in some Neo games...

 

[Phoenix Down]

I guess KoF 2002 is what I'm getting at. I've always been of the opinion that Dream Matches ('98 & 2002) are excuses for not having to add anything new. I mean, what's new in 2002? Remixed music, 6 new backgrounds, a BC combo mode that I pretty much never use except to use SDM/HSDMs...

 

[beelzebubble]

this is how is see it you can get:

A - completely revamped, new shiny graphics, totally new cast, great story, NO GAMEPLAY AND LIMITED INTERACTIVITY expensive crap like Final Fantasy every year...

or

B - slightly changed graphics, new backgrounds, a few new characters, a few new moves GREAT FAMILIAR GAMEPLAY expensive stuff like kof that has just enough new stuff to keep it fresh for a year....

yeah i know i am chronically biased against ff sorry about that... i am sure the millions of fans are right and it truly is a good game but i just cant see it.... sorry.

 

[Fran]

Phoenix Down:
I guess KoF 2002 is what I'm getting at. I've always been of the opinion that Dream Matches ('98 & 2002) are excuses for not having to add anything new. I mean, what's new in 2002? Remixed music, 6 new backgrounds, a BC combo mode that I pretty much never use except to use SDM/HSDMs...

2002 is a joke

but in 98 they added SHITLOADS of stuff


oh well

 

[the_colonel]

Final fantasy has about 3 or 4 decent versions, there is no need for new versions. They are basically making stories inside a game, the difficulty is pants so theres no need to buy anymore, unless you like stories of course.

Also they skimp heavily on the gameplay, theres about as much difference between there games as the 5 street fighter 2 games.

 

[SonGohan]

Maybe what KOF needs is to be totally revamped. Breath some new air into it. A lot of people will be put off with it because it wouldn't play like any of the others, but after the initial "I gotta hate everything at first" stage passes, they may enjoy it.

 

[RabbitTroop]

SonGohan:
Maybe what KOF needs is to be totally revamped. Breath some new air into it. A lot of people will be put off with it because it wouldn't play like any of the others, but after the initial "I gotta hate everything at first" stage passes, they may enjoy it.

I think 2001 is pretty fresh, good system, the ability to pick and limit teams to 1-4 was nice... The speed is good, it plays tight... BGs are eyesores for the most part, but hell... it was one of the better KOFs in recent years (and I really don't mind the music all that much). 2003 is interesting me, I wonder what they will do. If it stays 3on3 KOF2002 and <99 style... well, that seems lazy... then again if it is Striker based, we've been there done that... we need something new. Maybe a one on one with really intense stories and character driven endings! That could be cool... cause, there really should be only one "King of Fighters"

-Nick

<small>[ June 11, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: nruva ]</small>

 

[DangerousK]

Fran:

Phoenix Down:
I guess KoF 2002 is what I'm getting at. I've always been of the opinion that Dream Matches ('98 & 2002) are excuses for not having to add anything new. I mean, what's new in 2002? Remixed music, 6 new backgrounds, a BC combo mode that I pretty much never use except to use SDM/HSDMs...

2002 is a joke

but in 98 they added SHITLOADS of stuff


oh well

Fran, could you just give some examples of what was added to 1998?

I can feel the differences in each new KOF game through 2000 with the way they play. But I'm not sure of everything that changed other than obvious stuff.

 

[Phoenix Down]

nruva:

SonGohan:
Maybe what KOF needs is to be totally revamped. Breath some new air into it. A lot of people will be put off with it because it wouldn't play like any of the others, but after the initial "I gotta hate everything at first" stage passes, they may enjoy it.

I think 2001 is pretty fresh, good system, the ability to pick and limit teams to 1-4 was nice... The speed is good, it plays tight... BGs are eyesores for the most part, but hell... it was one of the better KOFs in recent years (and I really don't mind the music all that much). 2003 is interesting me, I wonder what they will do. If it stays 3on3 KOF2002 and <99 style... well, that seems lazy... then again if it is Striker based, we've been there done that... we need something new. Maybe a one on one with really intense stories and character driven endings! That could be cool... cause, there really should be only one "King of Fighters"

-Nick

Correct, and 95% of all the Neo fans today seem to hate this game, either because of the graphics/sound or because of the big change in gameplay.

I've noticed that most everyone here complains about not having something new in KoF while at the same time bashing KoF 2001 like it's the worst Neo game ever.

And then they wonder why KoF 2002 was such a rehash... oh_no

 

[DangerousK]

I feel KOF 2001 is a good game in its own right. But when comparing it to the other games in the series, it's a bit lackluster. I've yet to play KOF 2002. But I feel that 2001 takes a step back from KOF 2000. I think 2000 feels more like a logical step in the evolution of the series, 2001 doesn't. What really kills the game for me, as minor as it may seem, is the backgrounds. It kills the feeling of KOF for me. That's not to say the entire game is bad, I think the control is very good, definitely very easy to pick up and play on the whole. I personally loved Igniz, it was a very good design IMO. But the game on the whole lacks the SNK feel.

 

[Fran]

DangerousK:

Fran:

Phoenix Down:
I guess KoF 2002 is what I'm getting at. I've always been of the opinion that Dream Matches ('98 & 2002) are excuses for not having to add anything new. I mean, what's new in 2002? Remixed music, 6 new backgrounds, a BC combo mode that I pretty much never use except to use SDM/HSDMs...

2002 is a joke

but in 98 they added SHITLOADS of stuff


oh well

Fran, could you just give some examples of what was added to 1998?

I can feel the differences in each new KOF game through 2000 with the way they play. But I'm not sure of everything that changed other than obvious stuff.

all the characters have a lot of special moves and at least 2 DMs

each and every DM has a SDM version

new sprites:
vice,mature,rugal - omega rugal,heidern,saisyu,takuma,heavy d,lucky,brian,athena

and i think i'm forgetting someone...

the orochi team is basically 70 % new
they added TONS of animations here and there
- orochi yashi in particular -
and new stuff that wasnt present in 97

"ex" versions of billy,terry,mai,andy,ryo,robert,yuri

2002:

1 new sprite : athena

less special moves,less animations,less DMs than ever

only 1 dm has a SDM version

and they also removed special intros and combos and blah blah blah

!

<small>[ June 11, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Fran ]</small>

 

[JHendrix]

the_colonel:
Final fantasy has about 3 or 4 decent versions, there is no need for new versions. They are basically making stories inside a game, the difficulty is pants so theres no need to buy anymore, unless you like stories of course.

Also they skimp heavily on the gameplay, theres about as much difference between there games as the 5 street fighter 2 games.

1.) The main thing in an RPG is the STORY. Each FF is a new story with new characters with the exception of FFX-2, which is a continuation of an original story told in FFX.

2.) The battle systems from game to game are different, sometimes radically so and sometimes only partially different.

3.) Each new FF that comes out they put in more and more mini games and more hidden items/powerups that you get from leveling to insane amounts or just playing different mini-games and completing various quests that are often hard. I fail to see how this is "skimping on gameplay."

 

[SonGohan]

nruva:
I think 2001 is pretty fresh, good system, the ability to pick and limit teams to 1-4 was nice... The speed is good, it plays tight... BGs are eyesores for the most part, but hell... it was one of the better KOFs in recent years (and I really don't mind the music all that much). 2003 is interesting me, I wonder what they will do. If it stays 3on3 KOF2002 and <99 style... well, that seems lazy... then again if it is Striker based, we've been there done that... we need something new. Maybe a one on one with really intense stories and character driven endings! That could be cool... cause, there really should be only one "King of Fighters"

-Nick

I mean completely fresh. Compeltely redo the series. Graphics, music, gameplay, etc. I mean I have just as fun as the next guy playing KOF. But seriously, I think KOF needs to expand. Kinda like Fatal Fury went through transitions of FF - FF2 - FF3 - RB - MOTW. All these games are graphically different from the rest and play completely different. This is what I mean by fresh.

Look at games like Samurai Spirits 2. 17 characters, unbelievable music, and beautiful backrounds. 202 megs at that. Now triple that effort for a KOF. It seems that they crank out a KOF every year for the sake of having a KOF out every year. Take a break from a year of releasing and really put in some hella effort to bring something new to the table. Give new meaning to the title 'King of Fighters'.

I'm probably standing alone on this though, but this is how I feel.

 

[TriShield]

Playmore doesn't have an excuse to rehash sprites that were basically new way back in 1996 in KOF, which is eons ago in video game time. That's really unexcusable.

SVC is supposed to be their crown jewel, and it should look and play like it. This would have been a great opportunity to endow both sets of characters were new moves, looks and animation to really give the game polish.

Like people on other boards say, the old sprites make the game look old.

 

[ThePunisher]

JHendrix:

the_colonel:
Final fantasy has about 3 or 4 decent versions, there is no need for new versions. They are basically making stories inside a game, the difficulty is pants so theres no need to buy anymore, unless you like stories of course.

Also they skimp heavily on the gameplay, theres about as much difference between there games as the 5 street fighter 2 games.

1.) The main thing in an RPG is the STORY. Each FF is a new story with new characters with the exception of FFX-2, which is a continuation of an original story told in FFX.

2.) The battle systems from game to game are different, sometimes radically so and sometimes only partially different.

3.) Each new FF that comes out they put in more and more mini games and more hidden items/powerups that you get from leveling to insane amounts or just playing different mini-games and completing various quests that are often hard. I fail to see how this is "skimping on gameplay."

Thank you, saved me some time. wink

 

[beelzebubble]

I fail to see how this is "skimping on gameplay.

they are so linear (the majority of japanese rpgs) which is why i dont like them at all, that is just my opinion though and i know millions do like them, good luck to them

i stick with ultima five, wasteland and the like... i find them far more enjoyable.

each to their own...

 

[JHendrix]

beelzebubble:

I fail to see how this is "skimping on gameplay.

they are so linear (the majority of japanese rpgs) which is why i dont like them at all, that is just my opinion though and i know millions do like them, good luck to them

i stick with ultima five, wasteland and the like... i find them far more enjoyable.

each to their own...

Ehh, the best stories are actually very linear, FF6 and 7's stories were awesome and for the most part pretty damn linear.

Open ended RPG's are more of an American D&D styled PC RPG thing, which I've been known to play on occasion (NEVERWINTER NIGHTS!).

Back on topic though, look at Dahlsim and Hugo in SvC, redraw the KOF sprites in that style and animation and my GOD it'd be incredible.