D-Day

[evil wasabi]

That girl was someone's daughter.

 

[Mac91]

This thread is getting interesting. I withheld from posting originally as I didn't want to rustle feathers, but seeing some posts I thout I'd chip in.

I had to read an interesting book called 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' by Daniel Goldhagen (no prizes for guessing that his surname is indeed Jewish). In it, he claims that the Holocaust was not ordered by Hitler, or carried out by particularly high ranking officers. Instead he says that the German people were naturally inclined to genocide, Hitler merely enabled it. Needless to say, his book on the whole is bullshit; it does raise some PARTLY valid points in places (that SOME normal people did carry out the killing). But as, Shroom said, this aint black and white.

I recently got an email from the Labour Party in the UK asking me why do I vote. One of the options was "Because people had fought for democracy in WWII". Now, I may be being a massive dickhead here, but anyone who thinks that the Allies went into the war to preserve freedom and democracy is naieve.

 

[Dr Shroom]

I had to read an interesting book called 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' by Daniel Goldhagen (no prizes for guessing that his surname is indeed Jewish). In it, he claims that the Holocaust was not ordered by Hitler, or carried out by particularly high ranking officers. Instead he says that the German people were naturally inclined to genocide, Hitler merely enabled it.

Biased. I refuse to believe that people are born evil and/or with such more or less genocidal tendencies.

 

[Mac91]

Course he's biased, he's Jewish.

 

[evil wasabi]

Must be nice to have your last name based on a precious stone or metal.

 

[ReplicaX]

You continue to talk about free will and prevention in regards to a Dictatorship. Not just a simple one either, Himmler's SS started as a 290 man battalion in 1929 and rose to an army which controlled the German Police Force, Gustapo, and security forces all with the direction of Himmler and orders by Hitler.

Hitler's rise to power was everything against its ppl:
- democracy tossed out the window
- Nazi officials were put in charge of all local government in the provinces
- trades unions were abolished and their funds taken and their leaders put in prison
- law was passed making it illegal to form a new political party.
- From 1929 to the end of the War anyone considered a threat or resisted was executed by the SS.

There was no personal freedom in Nazi Germany.

- The punishment for harboring Jews/non-Aryans was execution or public hanging.

Hitler was all about making examples, show of force, and instilling fear in ppl and his own leaders, officers and soldiers.

There are examples throughout history with is. I personally experienced the after effects in Iraq with their ppl transitioning out of it.

 

[Takumaji]

This thread is getting interesting. I withheld from posting originally as I didn't want to rustle feathers, but seeing some posts I thout I'd chip in.

I had to read an interesting book called 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' by Daniel Goldhagen (no prizes for guessing that his surname is indeed Jewish). In it, he claims that the Holocaust was not ordered by Hitler, or carried out by particularly high ranking officers. Instead he says that the German people were naturally inclined to genocide, Hitler merely enabled it. Needless to say, his book on the whole is bullshit; it does raise some PARTLY valid points in places (that SOME normal people did carry out the killing). But as, Shroom said, this aint black and white.

I recently got an email from the Labour Party in the UK asking me why do I vote. One of the options was "Because people had fought for democracy in WWII". Now, I may be being a massive dickhead here, but anyone who thinks that the Allies went into the war to preserve freedom and democracy is naieve.

I've read that book as well, it's 100% bollocks. The guy has an outdated view on... well, anything. The father of my boss is a historian, just ask him what he thinks of Goldhagen. 90% of the claims he makes in his book have been refuted by historians all over the globe.

I can only repeat myself, if you want to read 1st-hand experience from someone who saw all the horrors of the SS and their concentration camps and came to the right conclusions, get yourself a copy of The SS State: The System of German Concentration Camps by Eugen Kogon. Kogon not only talks about the camps but also the psychology of the SS, the average soldiers and specially the German population and dedicated a whole chapter on the question of our guilt. It still is one of the best and most complete books on the question as to why Germany became a dictatorship between the late 1920s and 1945. Some of Kogon's reports are quite hard to stomach but it's worth it to get the full picture.

A quick word on German history: We became a full-blown nation as late as 1871, before that, The Reich consisted of several principalities and lots of more or less autonomous regions. The Bismarck era led straight to WW1, then Kaiser Wilhelm abdicated and we had some sort of democracy for a while (Weimarer Republik), then Hitler came and installed another one-man show. It was easy for him to lull the masses because they were used to obeying to authorities from the old days of the Kaiserreich (and Hitler didn't tell them what he had in mind I might add). The (international) industry and financiers also did their part in making the NSDAP and Hitler the next big thing, a lot antisemites and anti-communists from all over the world loved what he did.

It worked in Germany and would have worked in any other country, believe me. This wasn't a singular "typical German" thing, even though the history of our country played into Hitler's hands. It wouldn't have been that easy to install the Führer thing elsewhere but then again, just look at the way people in annexed countries like the Sudetenland, France, Netherlands, Austria or Czechoslovakia behaved after the Anschluss - don't let them tell you they were all 100% anti-Nazi, the majority of them silently became reconciled to the new situation and never thought of standing up against the man with the silly 'stache.

Morale of the story: There's no black and white, just endless shades of grey.

EDIT:

xsq,

my comment may have been a bit rude for which I apologize. I just can't stand it when someone lumps those Nazi bastards and my father together. Other than that, see above - endless shades of grey and all that jazz.

Peace,

Tak

 

[StevenK]

Must be nice to have your last name based on a precious stone or metal.

Not as good as based on a spicy dip.

 

[Mac91]

I can only repeat myself, if you want to read 1st-hand experience from someone who saw all the horrors of the SS and their concentration camps and came to the right conclusions, get yourself a copy of The SS State: The System of German Concentration Camps by Eugen Kogon.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[ReplicaX]

get yourself a copy of The SS State: The System of German Concentration Camps by Eugen Kogon.

I'll have to find this in English and epub format if it exists.

 

[Takumaji]

Amazon has it: http://www.amazon.com/The-Theory-Pr...0036&sr=8-1&keywords=eugen+kogon+the+ss+state . Can be had used from $3.something onwards. No digital version, though. Guess the English title of this book is different to the German one.

EDIT:

If you're looking for a good Hitler biography, check out Hitler - A Study In Tyranny, by Alan Bullock. It's one of the best books on the man I've ever read.

 

[Nickrb]

View attachment 15393

Its an interesting read.

 

[xsq]

my comment may have been a bit rude for which I apologize. I just can't stand it when someone lumps those Nazi bastards and my father together. Other than that, see above - endless shades of grey and all that jazz.

Didn't see your edit there at first. I can understand why you might have thought that I was insulting and unfair to your father, which was not my intention and I also would like to apologize for my first post which was much to undifferentiated. I think we will not be in agreement on some points, but on the large I think are on the same page. Peace.

You continue to talk about free will and prevention in regards to a Dictatorship. Not just a simple one either, Himmler's SS started as a 290 man battalion in 1929 and rose to an army which controlled the German Police Force, Gustapo, and security forces all with the direction of Himmler and orders by Hitler. [...]

What I meant was the capability of free will, what makes humans special (besides rational thought) and differentiates them from animals.

I refuse to believe that people are born evil and/or with such more or less genocidal tendencies.

It's been some time since I read it, but that is not what Goldhagen argues in 'Willing Executioner', he's not a racist. His Thesis is that there has been one particular kind of ideology forming in Germany from the 19th century onwards, "eliminationist" antisemitism. He says that it led to an "eliminationist culture" that made Germans not only susceptible, but secretly longing for the Holocaust because of the way they traditionally thought and what they were taught in everyday life. Even though small parts of his accounts are somewhat applicable, on the large his explanation is nonsense because it knows only one cause for the Shoah, is way to simple and not accurate - for example there were a lot of forms of antisemitism in the 1920 and 1930, only a very small number of people actually were "eliminationist antisemites". Trying to trace back that antisemitism until the 19th century does not work either. He can also not explain why other groups of people were persecuted, let alone take into account social factors and other ideologies at play. From a scientific standpoint his argumentation is even more flawed because he only takes evidence into account that supports his theory, even though contradicting evidence was well know long before he even began to write.

Hitler - A Study In Tyranny, by Alan Bullock.

Great book, though it should be mentioned that the author himself (and other scholars as well) have stated that it is necessary to also take into account that Hitler wasn't only motivated by the lust for power but also believed the ideology he lays out in "Mein Kampf" in large parts and acted upon it. There are a lot of irrational choices made by him that can not be understood without that important addition to the book.

I'm genuinely surprised that I haven't heard of Eugen Kogon up till now. Will check his books out, already researched "SS-State" in the local library and will pick it up for sure.

 

[Takumaji]

When reading Der SS-Staat by Eugen Kogon, it's important to remember that he wrote in in 1946 and got a special permission by the US forces to publish it a year later. He also was a real inmate of various concentration camps so it's understandable that he picks the SS to pieces, even though there were some SS men who woke up from their dark dream and wanted to do something about the carnage that was going on back then (Kurt Gerstein comes to mind).

Still, his assessment of the psychological state of the German population during and after the Nazi era is still unmatched in my opinion. The last chapter of SS-Staat alone is worth buying the book.