Both grandfathers were in WW2. One was an artillery Sgt fighting nearby Egypt and had his position overrun, sustaining close range machine gun fire up the side of his body. Somehow he was rescued and made a full recovery. I can recall that for the short time I knew him, he had a slight limp. This is the only story I know of his service as he refused to talk about the war. Must have been some terrible things he saw.
The other grandfather was in the Navy and likewise, would not talk about the war. I have no second or third hand stories about him at all.
went to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago today and watched a documentary about D-Day narrated by Tom Brokaw. Then we went on a tour of the U-505 submarine they have there. It's an amazing exhibit.
I know several commemorations took place around here, but I didn't get a chance to check them out.
My paternal grandfather served during WWII as well, stationed both in Germany and the Aleutian Islands. He never really talked about it so I never found out more than that.
As I mentioned before, my father told us a number of his war-time stories but it wasn't before he had turned 70 and felt his life is coming to an end that he really came up with the bloody truth. Shortly before he had a breakdown and was sent to the hospital from which he did not return alive, he bought various maps of Russia and Ukraine and showed us the places he fought and suffered... then I looked at him, and the look he returned to me told me what was happening at this very moment. I had tears in my eyes all the way through.
I often thought about visiting the places my dad was sent to back in 1943. Perhaps I'll do it when I have more time (and da monies).
Many veterans are reluctant to tell what really happened in the war because they are just glad they came out alive and usually don't want to hear anything about it ever again. The kill or be killed thing isn't as simple as it sounds, you know.
I'm sorry, but I can not feel much sympathy with soldiers on the side of the axis, especially not for those from Germany. When I read stuff like "hats off to everyone who fought that day for what they genuinely believed was the right thing - whichever side they were on." my stomach turns.
Let us not forget who prosecuted everyone that was declared an enemy of the "Volksgemeinschaft", build gas chambers and concentration camps. Who started the war, killing everyone deemed "unworthy" of life in their path - especially but not limited to the eastern front. Who kept the whole madness going until the bitter end. It wasn't the work of a few crazy Hitler Fanatics, not only SS-Troops, it took a whole economy, a whole people "genuinely believing" in the ideology of 'national socialism'. Keeping the fields blooming and the bread baked, the tanks rolling and the planes flying, people tormented and slaughtered.
I do not neglect that there was human suffering on the side of the Germans (and Axis), I do not want to take that out of the picture - the fear some might have had in the face of the power of a ruthless (and ever more irrational) state, about neighbors and friends turning into believers and followers. The fear of speaking up or leaving the country. The fear to be shot, the pain and suffering as soldiers. Hunger, area bombardments, rapes, war crimes. But if we're speaking specifically about the suffering endured by supporters of the German cause, let us not forget it was them who brought this upon themselves. It is not a detail, it is what makes the picture.
I have had long and very difficult sit downs with my relatives while I could and have (to my limited abilities) tried to contrast their stories with scientific facts. I know that things aren't as easy as they seem.
One of my Grandfathers (mothers side) was stationed in Sicily towards the end of the war. He was very young then (17-19). He told me in depth about the military drill he went through and about his fascination with Nazism. How he knew about the prosecution of gays, communists and jews. His father had been murdered by the SA because he was a SPD (social democratic party) supporter, the family suffered greatly and could only survive because everyone stuck together and repaired clothing for pennies. He blamed that on his father and embraced Nazism. He told me about the battles he took part in, brutal things he had done willingly (like participating in the execution of captured resistance fighters), actions that were against the Geneva Conventions (like burning down houses as retribution to mere nuisances of the local population - which was even alined with the 3. Reich). He was finally taken as a P.O.W. by the American troops in Operation Husky - the camps he went to were not comfortable, but not too bad either. He was fed OK, given enough shade and rest.
My grandmothers father (fathers side) worked as a miner until 1931 when he was fired because of "bad workmoral". He was with the communist party and took part in illegal actions. From 1935 on more and more of his comrades were found out and tortured. He was taken into custody by the GeStaPo in 1936. During the "interogations" that lasted almost 4 weeks his hand was broken so badly he could not work for the rest of time the Nazi regime was in power. Imprisoned several times for long years even though he had "repented" his political believes, from 1943 on he was made to take part in the war in Greece, Russia and finally France where he was wounded by a piece of shrapnel and spent the last days before the capitulation in a hospital.
Still, the fact that 'national socialism' had to be stopped, and had to be stopped at all cost and with all force necessary is what remains. And those that gave their lives toward that goal, those that had their lives destroyed by the war fighting for freedom, the millions of victims of German insanity, those are the ones we must remember first. Without that in mind the whole picture becomes distorted and blurred. It fundamentally threatens the only thing to be learned from WWII and the time of 'national socialism', that nothing like should ever be permitted to happen again.
Americans have supported their troops patriotically in spite of drone attacks on non-combatants. Would it change things if the victims of those drone attacks were Christian or Jewish?
I think it would. Some people are not as loud as others, and it seems that the voices of Muslims are the easiest to ignore. Maybe it's their approach or cultural bias.
There are thousands of accounts of German soldiers that disagreed with a lot of Nazi politics but were either doing what they thought was right to help their country prosper or were fearful of what might happen if they were objectors.
Honestly, hating on soldiers for the policies of the governing bodies that order them to war is pretty off base.
America was a segregate army and African-Americans were routinely shit on by both the command structure and the other officers and enlisted men, but I guess fighting for 'freedom' means you get to sweep those things under the rug.
Let's not even talk about how horribly antisemitic the US government was in the 30s, or how they didn't really care about what was going on in Germany for a long time.
Point being that everyone was doing either what they were ordered to do or what they thought was right based on where they lived and what they knew at that time.
There were assholes and good people on both sides. This isn't the rebellion and the galactic empire.
There are thousands of accounts of German soldiers that disagreed with a lot of Nazi politics but were either doing what they thought was right to help their country prosper or were fearful of what might happen if they were objectors.
Yes I fucking am. Who is this dude to piss on those who fought on the "wrong" side, not all Landsers were part of the Einsatzgruppen, eh. At least my dad wasn't and he also wasn't a fucking Nazi party member. My grandma got thrown into jail for one weeks for obstruction of justice because she wanted to tear my father away from the soldiers who caught him on his farm and dragged him to fucking Russia.
Eugen Kogon mentioned it as early as 1947, the inane collective guilt bollocks will be the vehicle on which old and new Nazis will have a save & comfy trip into the 21st century, and he was right.
Noone is denying the horrible things we did two or three generations ago but I fucking don't want that fucking Betroffenheits-bullshit in my threadzzz, fuckin' PERIOD. We have enough of that crap everyday over here, I fucking can't take it anymore.
As I said before, the Reich is gone, the panzers have been wrecked, let's move on and remember those we lost as human beings, not as players of a cruel political game.
xsq, I wonder what you would have done with the limited options available and many of them with an outcome of death for you and your family.
As others have said, many just wanted to protect their country and wanted nothing to do with the Nazi party.
You really think I wanted to goto Iraq? Nope. However, I did as I signed the dotted line in 2000 when I joined the military. Knowing full well the possibility of combat.
xsq, I'm sure it's been covered already... but you're a goddamned ignoramus.
Do you think the German people had a choice to go out and fight or not? When your government tells you to do something and you don't do it, you end up in shackles or dead. At least they had a fighting chance on the battlefield. I'm sure most of the soldiers who weren't part of the nazi party disagreed with Hitler and the war, but what could they do?
Probably thinks everyone joined freely and there was no conscription as well. If I recall when Hitler took over one of the first things he did was reinstate conscription. Besides making all current solders swear oath to him.
The thing is that some people can never let go about us and the Nazi era. And there's a fucking reason why: It fits to their agenda, political or otherwise. It's very convenient to have someone you can always point your finger at if you want to hush your own fuck-ups or need some money from do-gooders who come crawling like lemmings and shell out da fucking Euros for nada.
Same with certain political clowns over here like the green party or all sorts of lefty daydreamers, they love knockout arguments, and dragging someone through the mire for political reasons by slapping a "He's a Nazi!" tag on his forehead is one of their best ones. Quite a few of them already were aboard when the Stasi and all those fucked-up pseudo communist idiots were still in charge in Eastern Germany (or the KGB in Moscow, for that matter) so they directly or indirectly supported a communist dictatorship that lasted from the October Revolution in 1917 until 1991 and killed more people than the Nazis ever did. Put that in yer pipe and smoke it.
I'm sure there were good men (and women) on all sides- and even in the SS.
Great uncle fought at Normandy (he is American).
Grandfather was a prisoner of war in Germany on D-day (he was British- RAF). He got marched all over Europe- first by the Germans, then by the Russians who liberated his POW camp.
But if we're speaking specifically about the suffering endured by supporters of the German cause, let us not forget it was them who brought this upon themselves. It is not a detail, it is what makes the picture.
We could debate for days about how the nazis enrolled a country to their anti-semetic bullshit but the fact is, they got help. Call it what you want but when the europeeans took 15% of german's territory in 1919 (including the german population living there itself), ruined their army, killed any pride they had left and made them starve for years, they kinda created the nazis. It's pretty easy to brainwash vulnerable people, especially when there is some history involved. They wanted their country and pride back, They wanted the Greater Germany they were told about. I'm pretty sure most germans never really gave a shit about their jewish neighbors living next door before that. There was a particular context involving starvation, hate, pride and of course propaganda, lots of it... Kids were brainwashed to love the fuhrer and hate the jews. Pretty much all of them would have given their life for Hitler. Unfortunally a lot of them actually did without ever really knowing what they were doing.
[The Forum tells me my response is too long, so I’ll have to post it in 2 parts… yay for Tl;Dr]
Maybe I should just take Takumajis advice and go fuck myself, but seems there's no easy way to weasel out of this one for me. When I joined here I had the resolution to not engage in political discussions, as I think it is easier to talk differences out ‘face to face’ which limits the danger of misunderstandings and takes less time. Well, all of that failed.
I’m also sorry some of my arguments might not be as clear/short as they could be, the language barrier is quite hard to overcome for me with this topic. Please bear in mind that I’m not angry while I write this and I honestly do not wish to insult anyone or for this to become ugly. I will also shut up if asked to seriously and with a good reason – that this thread ‘belongs’ to someone is not a stance I understand yet.
In the following I’m just going to answer a few of the replies as some arguments have been stated several times and this way I hope to shorten this post and keep it from becoming redundant.
It was not my intention to say that all Germans were Nazis and all Allies were saints. Specifically I was not saying anything about your father or grandmother Takumaji. I know nothing about them.
On the contrary with the example of my own relatives I tried to argue that in spite of the generalizations in my post if you’re looking at single biographies it becomes harder to make general statements. My grandgrandfather (the communist) surly was not a Nazi, but still fought for national socialism in the end. My Grandfather (mothers side) on the other hand was a convinced Nazi when he entered the war but if you look at his biography it seems almost understandable why he embraced the ideology.
What I tried to argue was that in the end Nazi Germany had to be stopped. Not because America is/was great, but because of what was going on behind German lines. Adding to that is if the Germans hadn’t been defeated, they would have continued to murder a large part of earths population and enslaved the rest. Regardless of what the Germans themselves thought they were doing or why they were doing it, German soldiers fought for that goal. German civilians were the ones keeping the economy running, it was them who brought and kept national socialism in power. Ultimately there had to be people building concentration and extermination camps and running the logistics/providing the resources needed. It has been repeatedly shown that the Holocaust was an open secret. The German population did not prevent the (tried) ‘extermination’ of the Jewish people in Europe and they supported (willingly or otherwise) worldwide terror in the name of national socialism and arian supremacy.
I stated that from this perspective on history it is hard for me to feel much sympathy for German losses. I regret that statement as it is a deficiency of my own character and cynical to say something like that. What I ask for however is that whenever we speak of German soldiers or German civilians suffering and death, it has to be put into context – nothing more.
Point being that everyone was doing either what they were ordered to do or what they thought was right based on where they lived and what they knew at that time.
xsq, I wonder what you would have done with the limited options available and many of them with an outcome of death for you and your family. […] many just wanted to protect their country and wanted nothing to do with the Nazi party.
Do you think the German people had a choice to go out and fight or not? When your government tells you to do something and you don't do it, you end up in shackles or dead. At least they had a fighting chance on the battlefield. I'm sure most of the soldiers who weren't part of the nazi party disagreed with Hitler and the war, but what could they do?
Call it what you want but when the europeeans took 15% of german's territory in 1919 (including the german population living there itself), ruined their army, killed any pride they had left and made them starve for years, they kinda created the nazis. [...]
Yes, to some extend of course the German soldiers were misguided. But we are talking about adults here that had free will and the capability to think for themselves. Same can be said about a large part of the German population. Sure there were limiting factors like propaganda and a very different state of science as well as education. Still there was little resistance to the systematic exclusion of Jews from all parts of the society (Nuremberg Laws being just one example), subsequent deportations and mass murder. It seems no one asked “what will happen to the Jewish lawyer down the block, the Jewish doctor next door, my Jewish professor, classmate, butcher etc.” (even though some of them fought together in the German army in WWI). On the contrary most Germans were OK with their ‘disappearance’ and the reallocation of their belongings. All the while propaganda media (like the “Völkische Beobachter” or “Der Stürmer” who had public displays in every larger town) were writing of the “final solution” (“Unser Ziel ist die Entfernung der Juden überhaupt” was one of the most quoted lines of Hitler). It needs plenty of ignoring not to see what was going on and it has been repeatedly shown that most of the Germans did indeed know People (and I only referenced Jews here as the best know example, there is a long list of persecuted groups) were being systematically murdered. Primary sources document that there was antisemitism and rascim as well as ideological support of the nazi parties politics (not the whole of the ideology) to be found all through the society to a very large extend from the beginning of its reign onward. Sure, that antisemisism and rascism was more “casual” in many cases but was cultivated very easily.
Yes, living today it is simple to say they should have stopped the nazi parties rise to power, should have organized a resistance movement or left the country, disserted from the troops etc. – but those were realistic (though dangerous) options. There has to be a limit as to what is morally acceptable because “everybody was doing it” and fear. Mass murder and a global war with said goals (at least to me) is such a line. Also thinking something is right and doing the right thing are different.
I do not know what I or any of us would have done if we lived in those days, and it is not the point of our debate. But ok, for the sake of argument let’s say you are a German patriot in the Weimar Republic that feels stripped of the power your country once had, maybe you even lost land or property because of the Treaty of Versailles. Does national socialism promise to bring back the power of your country and your land/property, maybe even gain you more than was lost? Yes – but it will also mean that you have to go along with world war and the elimination of Jews world wide, the enslavement of ‘non-arian races’ and the suppression or murder of everyone that does not go along with the ideology or simply can not fit in (gays, disabled people, …). If you do not want to know about that last part, would that make a decision to support the NSDAP any more right?
I did not want to discuss current politics (in a different thread I might) with my reply and don’t really know what Wasabis point is. To me it reads like what he is implying is that the Shoa was not a rupture in civilization (Dan Diner) or even the turning of the spirit of enlightenment into barbarism (Adorno/Horkheimer). Drone attacks do not aim to ‘exterminate’ a whole people as if they were vermin with industrial means. In doing just that the Holocaust was a new and very specific quality of genocide and mass murder. The ‘extermination’ wasn’t a means to another end. It wasn’t done for property, not because a common enemy was needed, certainly not to win the war. It was a goal in itself, a central part of the ideology and was committed in cold blood, almost free of emotion. If it was for property, the Germans wouldn’t have ‘exterminated’ captured Jews to the extend they did – but kept all of them as slaves to let them work for them. If it was a common enemy, why choose them, there were a lot of others (especially those outside of German borders) that would’ve been easier and more effective targets. The Holocaust didn’t even stop when the resources were getting short and rationally should’ve been used to supply the German troops.
I think there is also a fundamental difference between what is going on in many wars today to how the Third Reich waged it. Here as well there are numerous sources in which you can follow that it wasn’t just the SS and Einsatzgruppen who murdered on the fronts, it were Policeforces and also “ordinary Lanzers” that organized and took part in burning of houses and mass execution of civilians. Those actions were for the absolute most part not strictly ordered but voluntary. Documented cases in which soldiers refused or asked for different assignments are rare but where they occurred there was no significant retribution on those who refused. Again, I’m not saying all of the Wehrmacht was made of nazis or murderers, just that there were indeed choices.
(The primary sources I speak of above include diaries, letters (both inside Germany as well as directly to and from the front), tapes from allied POW prisons that recorded conversations among German prisoners without their knowledge, documents of the German troops etc. – all of these have problems in themselves, I know that, but what I am stating here is a mainstream thesis among German history scholars, internationally that is).
America was a segregate army and African-Americans were routinely shit on by both the command structure and the other officers and enlisted men, but I guess fighting for 'freedom' means you get to sweep those things under the rug. Let's not even talk about how horribly antisemitic the US government was in the 30s, or how they didn't really care about what was going on in Germany for a long time.
Thank you for mentioning these important points. I agree with all of the quoted and I chose my words poorly as I said “fought for freedom”. Also the Allies as states of course did not fight to free Europe or end what was going on in concentration camps, but for their very own interests – the military defeat of Germany was their goal because eventually Germany would have attacked them (or already did) and if Germany was permitted to retain control over large parts of Europe even America couldn’t have defended itself. From a materialistic point of view however the Allies were (despite of what they thought they were fighting for or the interests behind their actions) in fact freeing concentration camps and bringing down national socialism. An emancipation of black people would have been unthinkable under the rule of national socialist doctrine and an authoritarian society (which is very different from a segregate democracy). I too believe it is a tragedy that neither the US nor any other country in the world intervened earlier (be with sanctions, covert missions, all out war, or in whatever effective enough form). So yes, the whole of civilization also bears responsibility for the Holocaust, but only to a very limited extend. And while we’re there: It is this tragedy that made the state of Israel a necessity.
Even though I wouldn’t call every of Daniel Goldhagens Thesis bullocks, I concur. I would also rather go with the term collective responsibility. I’m not saying that there aren’t people who where ‘more guilty’ than others. I did not ask for the prosecution of all of the German population of that time – the extent to which there were prosecutions or even investigations (no matter if we’re talking east or west) was too little for sure (one of the reasons being the confrontation between USSR and USA).
If you read through my arguments you should find that I’m not betroffen. That misses my point entirely. I too can’t take that overemotional phoney bullshit and believe it will do no good and undermine the very goals of it’s advocates.
But the study of German history and German responsibility is most important if we are to prevent something similar as the Holocaust from ever happening again. So in a sense the research and debate about it will not end soon and that is a good thing.
My reason is that I follow the maxim that it is necessary to align all thought and actions towards the prevention of something like the Holocaust to repeat. It is not totalitarian as it is an argument taken from the historical experiences of those who came before us and can be tested and accepted through rational thought alone (yeah, I suck at translating Adorno).
Just to be clear: I do not want to call you a Nazi, nor someone in this thread or those who disagree with me, I merely want to discuss. I as well am an enemy of the leftys you describe and their kind of “arguing”. I’m also an enemy to those who find anything attractive about the Soviet Union or other pseudo communist states (all of which are totalitarian, authoritarian murder regimes). As to the number of deaths and trying to compare Nazi Germany to the Soviet Union, see my above statement to the different quality of the ideology behind the murders/genocide(s).
As I said before, the Reich is gone, the panzers have been wrecked, let's move on and remember those we lost as human beings, not as players of a cruel political game.
For those who understand German I want to quote someone I usually don’t agree with at all because what he said sums up (part of) my standpoint well:
Spoiler:
„Das Thema, das wir heute diskutieren, eignet sich nicht für Polemik. [...] Die Debatte über die Rolle der Wehrmacht ist schwierig und schmerzhaft, gewiß. Aber sie ist unausweichlich. Die Grammatik der politischen Sprache bevorzugt leider häufig in der historischen Retrospektive die Passivform: es wurde, es passierte, es ereignete sich, es fand statt. Hinter diesen Wortgeweben verschwinden das Subjekt, das Individuum, die Schuld und die Verantwortung.
Die Debatte kann uns aber auch in die Versuchung bringen - wer wollte das nicht eingestehen -, sie im Stil einer selbstgefälligen Moral zu führen. Davor ist niemand gefeit; davor sollten wir uns alle hüten. Wenn wir ehrlich mit uns umgehen, wird jeder einzelne von uns sich fragen müssen, wie er selbst in einer Extremsituation gehandelt hätte. Wer von uns könnte ohne weiteres behaupten, daß er zum Beispiel den Mut eines deutschen Soldaten aufgebracht hätte, der sich der Exekution von wehrlosen Zivilisten verweigerte und sich schweigend in ihre Reihe stellte, um den Tod mit ihnen zu teilen?
Gestatten Sie mir an dieser Stelle einige persönliche Bemerkungen. Mein Onkel Fritz Schily, ein Mann von lauterem Charakter, war Oberst der Luftwaffe.
Zum Ende des Krieges war er Kommandeur eines Fliegerhorstes in der Nähe von Ulm. Er suchte in Verzweiflung über die Verbrechen des Hitler-Regimes bei einem Tieffliegerbeschuß den Tod. Mein ältester Bruder Peter Schily verweigerte sich der Mitgliedschaft in der Hitler-Jugend und versuchte zunächst ins Ausland zu fliehen. Da ihm das nicht gelang, meldete er sich freiwillig an die Front. Er wurde nach kurzer Ausbildung als Pionier im Rußlandfeldzug eingesetzt, erlitt schwere Verwundungen und verlor ein Auge sowie die Bewegungsfähigkeit eines Armes.
Mein Vater, eine herausragende Unternehmerpersönlichkeit, dem ich unendlich viel für mein Leben verdanke, war ein erklärter Gegner des Nazi-Regimes, empfand es aber als Reserveoffizier des Ersten Weltkrieges als tiefe Demütigung, daß er auf Grund seiner Mitgliedschaft in der von den Nazis verbotenen anthroposophischen Gesellschaft nicht zum Wehrdienst eingezogen wurde. Erst später hat er die Verrücktheit - ich verwende seine eigenen Worte - seiner damaligen Einstellung erkannt. Der Vater meiner Frau, Jindrich Chajmovic, ein ungewöhnlich mutiger und opferbereiter Mensch, hat als jüdischer Partisan in Rußland gegen die deutsche Wehrmacht gekämpft.
Nun sage ich einen Satz, der in seiner Härte und Klarheit von mir und uns allen angenommen werden muß: Der einzige von allen vier genannten Personen - der einzige! -, der für eine gerechte Sache sein Leben eingesetzt hat, war Jindrich Chajmovic. Denn er kämpfte gegen eine Armee, in deren Rücken sich die Gaskammern befanden, in denen seine Eltern und seine gesamte Familie ermordet wurden. Er kämpfte gegen eine Armee, die einen Ausrottungs- und Vernichtungskrieg führte, die die Massenmorde der berüchtigten Einsatztruppen unterstützte oder diese jedenfalls gewähren ließ. Er kämpfte, damit nicht weiter Tausende von Frauen, Kindern und Greisen auf brutalste Weise umgebracht wurden. Er kämpfte gegen eine deutsche Wehrmacht, die sich zum Vollstrecker des Rassenwahns, der Unmenschlichkeit des Hitler-Regimes erniedrigt und damit ihre Ehre verloren hatte.“
I had a mean response to that one, too. You know, Betroffenheit with German losses and Rudolf Steiners ideology mix well…
P.S.:
Spoiler:
I have a bad feeling about this debate. Looks/reads like a lot of those "dumb noob vs. rest of the board" threads... only this time I'm on the ejector seat.
dude didn't you watch the credits during metal slug 1? one of morden's soldier's has a little girl crying at his grave, presumably the soldier's daughter. if that doesn't teach you anything about war then you don't deserve metal slug.
