Car Buying

FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
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As some of you may know, I've been looking to pick up a used vehicle.

Thought it was time to post up something about the modern car buying process as I've been dealing with it for about a month.

First off I can totally understand how those online car sites like Carvana and Vroom may not be for everyone. That being said the more I deal with dealerships the more I begin to believe that the online model is going to force dealerships to change. It seems to me that too many dealerships are so behind the times in how they do business and deal with the customers that there is very little reason to choose them for a used car purchase. I've ran into a few good dealerships but by far I've dealt with more that were crappy at best.

So here are a list of my experiences as of late.

No prices on used vehicles on the lot. - I go onto the lot, look at the cars and notice that the tags the put in the windows have no prices. I assume this so that they can charge everyone a different price as needed to rook the customer as best as possible. Asking the sales person the price of a vehicle, they want to show it to me first. I don't want to know anything more about it until I know the price. They infrom me that they will have to go check the price and I inform them that I won't be buying from them.

If you don't want an SUV - I can only assume they must have an amazing markup because they are the hottest selling vehicle type. The lots I went to had mostly various SUV models in their new section and about half of the used vehicles were. I'm aware that makers have been phasing out their various non SUV and crossover lines but I was shocked by how far that has gone. I personally don't really like driving them so I'm clearly the oddball. However this has been going on long enough that at least around here there are a lot fewer used non SUV type vehicles on the used lots.

If you don't want to finance they don't want to talk to you. - Several times, the moment they found out I could just buy outright the service went straight to hell. It's pretty clear what dealerships make their money from dealer reserve rather than selling cars. For those who don't know how that works...

(Dealer reserve is a kickback paid to car dealerships by the finance companies (including those owned by car manufacturers) for bringing in new customers. Dealer reserve can be defined as interest points that usually constitute two to four interest points added to the interest rate, and can tack on thousands to the price of a car and increase one's monthly payments by $30, $50 or more. This is basically how it works: The finance company, offers to finance someone's new car for 2.5%, but the car dealer doesn't tell the customer that. Instead, they tell him that the lowest interest rate he qualifies for is 4.5%. The finance company sends the check equal to the 2% markup to the dealership as a commission. The customer gets to pay off the 2% dealer reserve without realizing he actually qualified for a 2.5% rate!)

How much are you looking to pay a month - A variation on the above as they make the assumption you want to finance. Again, whatever amount you say, you can be sure that they will put you in a car for at the very least that amount, but likely a bit more as that will be the closest they can get you to it. Several times that was one of the first questions a sales person asked me.

The price is a bullshit lie - So, many dealerships show the list price on their website with all possible incentives, rebates, and deductions. You will not qualify for all of them, maybe one or two, but not all of them, unless you are financing, in the military, a student, previously purchased the same brand vehicle new to get the loyalty discount, and able to take advantage of special financing rates and rebates with excellent credit. Also, some dealers list the price and in the fine print will have a notation that price reflects a cash down payment of $XXXX.XX. That amount tends to be around 2k from what I've seen, sometimes a lot more but seldom very much less. Also, the "You must print out and bring in this listing to receive this pricing" I see that a lot as well and am not totally sure what the deal with that is just yet.

Contact Dealer for price/details - In this modern day, why is this bullshit acceptable. Any dealership that won't put the information out there on their website can go straight to hell.

I have some questions - When you contact a dealership to inquire about a vehicle and they totally ignore your entire email and respond with some stupid bullshit, it's a good indication that you don't need to do business with them. I'm not talking about the canned automated responses you get but rather when dealing with actual people, for example.

I send an email inquiry that explains what I am looking for, where I am located, and what I would like to know, as well as that I need to be contacted by email do to not being able to access my phone during the day and they fucking call or text me, with none of what I ask about but rather to tell me that they can schedule me an appointment that day or whenever works for me to come check out the vehicle. I'm like 700 miles away and clearly noted that information.. fuck those guys.

I finally find a car that I want to make a move on - So after finally finding one, the first thing I do is ask the sales person about their financing and if they have any kind of deals going on. I have no plans on using it but I get them to send me all the finance stuff and the link to the application. I don't fill any of it out but let them know read through it an take care of that later. I want to get the price worked out on the car so I'll know how much I need to put down, and such so we get that all worked out and cut a deal. Once I have the quote in writing I put the deposit down and then decide, "You know what.. this isn't all that much I'll just pay cash."

Now the person I was dealing didn't seem too happy about that as they can knock the price down a little because they will be making it up on the back end, except there is no back end because I'm paying cash. I was able to get what I feel is a reasonable price and the shipping to my location discounted to by a huge amount.

I fucking hate car buying and dealing with dealerships. I don't see how they offer any value to the process or the customer, even at best, they are just something in the way.

In the end, I'm getting an off lease CPO 2017 BMW I3 with range extender, at less than 22k miles on it.

fcb7b60877d741d98748afc11aa3528e.jpg
 

sylvie

NG.COM TEMPTRESS
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Man that thing is stupid looking. My upstairs neighbor, I've been trying to figure out if he was gay or not, and he pulled up outside in a brand new looking car kinda like that, except in "burnt metallic sienna" or whatever that ugly orange color is, and now I know the answer to my ponderings.
 

FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
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Soccer moms are going to be so hot for me when they see my BMW key ring... and so let down when they see the actual car.
 

racecar

J. Maximum Fan Club President
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do they offer rebate on used EV ?? ... personally i would get a toyota or honda for reliability and low maintenance even if its used
 
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FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
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There is no rebate on used models. The rebate comes in the form of depreciation, as this one was 35k off the original sale price. I think the Leaf is the EV that looses the most value the fastest, Not sure where this one sits but when sold new I can't see how it would be anywhere worth the asking price. For what you get though, the current prices on lightly used ones seems a good value.

Where I'm at there are few places that will do work on EV and hybrids that includes most dealerships as they don't sell them locally really. There is a BMW dealer the next town over that sells these and works on them so there is that.

I looked pretty hard at a Honda Clarity and some different Prius models but, previously owning a BMW I kind of feel like I know what I'm in for. Probably wrong about that though.
 

HDRchampion

Before you sell me something, ask how well my baby
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Bought BMW 10 years ago brand new and its been a money pit. Should have gone w/ a Honda or Lexus.
 

@M

Vanessa's Drinking Buddy,
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I got a Ferrari F8 for $16. Yeah, it's made out of LEGOs and six inches long, but, let's not quibble over details.

FB_IMG_16175047434141731.jpg
 

Syn

There can be only one.
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Mazdas are pretty reliable too.
 

racecar

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bmw/ mercedes even the basic maintenance cost a bit more and they require specialty tools/nuts and bolts so its usually done at stealerships .
 

FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
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No credit check.
So that's good at least.
 

ysselcneogeo

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All this to get a pos i3. Probably one of the worst ev you could get. Bad power, looks and range and probably typical BMW reliability.


Also you whole thing about being annoyed with the car buying experience. You have some valid points but you also miss the biggest one. Selling cars cost a shit ton of money to do so why would anyone not want to get the most out of you? Should ever job be a poverty level job? Like why would you want to sell cars unless you're making good profits? The only way things would be barely over priced would be if everything switched to buying directly from the manufacture.
 

racecar

J. Maximum Fan Club President
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The more I think about the credit system in America, the more I realize how fucked up it is.
Credit junkies ... how you think banks make money. Also China is starting to open up on credits as well. I think that’s how jack ma got into trouble by offering credit to the common people giving them a taste of America . Before financing was only for like a house but now they offer it in cars and even appliances and electronic.
 

FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
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All this to get a pos i3. Probably one of the worst ev you could get. Bad power, looks and range and probably typical BMW reliability.


Also you whole thing about being annoyed with the car buying experience. You have some valid points but you also miss the biggest one. Selling cars cost a shit ton of money to do so why would anyone not want to get the most out of you? Should ever job be a poverty level job? Like why would you want to sell cars unless you're making good profits? The only way things would be barely over priced would be if everything switched to buying directly from the manufacture.
There is a difference between selling used cars and selling new cars.

A lot of dealerships make a big chunk of their new car money based on incentives from the manufacturers. That is typically based on numbers. If you need to sell one or two more cars to make your incentive by the deadline, then taking a loss on one or two compared to missing out on $100k or so bonus... well not much of a choice there. The next big way a lot of them make their money is through the service department.

Also, people don't read the window stickers for the most part, I believe. When looking at new cars and you see all the shit the dealership adds to the price of the vehicle, such as their Holdback (being nothing more than just charging more because they can) or adding accessories that no one really wants to jack up the price. Again, its one of those things. Years ago it was adding pin striping, and every fucking car had that shit put on it and an extra 200-500 tacked on to the sticker price for it. Interior protection package..... Nitrogen in the tires... anti theft registration (they etch or engrave the vin on some extra places on the car.)

Secondly the cost of new cars is total bullshit lie. The new cars cost so much to help offset the cost of the ones that don't sell. It looks bad for the makers to shut down or cut shifts on their factories so they run more production than they can sell to keep the places running. As a result you have giant lots full of new cars unsold all over the country. They rent out old air fields and ex-military bases to use to store them. Check out it's really a thing.

The idea that your new car looses +10% value the moment you buy it is BS as well. The truth of the matter is that it never had that value and is just overpriced by that much. I understand no product appreciates in value with time in use, but in this case you could simply not even use the car and it still loose it's supposed value instantly.

Also for new cars, higher those are, then the higher the price of used ones can be.

Used cars are a whole different matter though and a lot of things have contributed to the rise in their price over the years..

As far as used cars go, I understand there should be a profit. How you make that profit and how much of that profit you make is the issue.
Just for an example. I took a used vehicle to a dealership and got a shitty offer on it. Way less than what they should have offered. I expect what they were going to sell it for based on what the vehicle was selling used for in that condition. They were looking to make about 12k profit on my car + the profit they would have made on whatever used car they would have sold me. Took it to other place and got better offers.

Anytime I got a low offer it was always something along the lines of....

They needed to be able to make a profit on it and couldn't do any better than that...
They just couldn't do that much for it as it wasn't something that was really in demand...
They would need to have their mechanic spend the day looking it over and I would need to leave it if for a while then maybe they could do better if it was in really good condition...

When I would tell them I already had a better offer than that and show it to them, then somehow magically, they could all of the sudden do as much as that offer. The place I sold it to offered me more than 4k the best offer I had previously had. They sold the car within a week, for about what I expected it would sell for.

I don't care how expensive selling cars is. If they aren't going to treat your customers with some level of respect, they why should they be in business.

How much is it reasonable to rook the customers for? Just being curious but how many extra thousand on the price of a car are you willing to pay, as pure profit to the dealership to be able to feel good about helping them not be impoverished? Making money is fine, fucking people over to make it isn't.
 

LoneSage

A Broken Man
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How much is it reasonable to rook the customers for? Just being curious but how many extra thousand on the price of a car are you willing to pay, as pure profit to the dealership to be able to feel good about helping them not be impoverished? Making money is fine, fucking people over to make it isn't.
The answer to that, since time immemorial, is as much as they're able to get out of rubes.

The strongest countries in the world used slave labor.
 

smokehouse

I was Born This Ugly.,
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I despise buying cars. The auto industry is still one of those old-school "sucker born every minute" kind of businesses. I have no clue why it is still that way.

Like you said, list price is BS, listed incentives and rebates are BS, online listed trade value for your car is BS, estimated online monthly payment is BS...it takes hours of gimmicky horse shit "negotiations" to get to the brass tax...then there's all kinds of extra fees...and don't forget sales tax...which is never included in anything.

God, I hate it all so much...
 

Digmac

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All this to get a pos i3. Probably one of the worst ev you could get. Bad power, looks and range
Have you even driven an i3? I got to have one for a week and it’s electric torque is fun. It feels a bit like a go kart to drive. Small, thin tires, instant torque.

Let the man enjoy his i3. I don’t think they’ve proven to be as unreliable as other BMW models.

Between this hot take, and your whining for homie hookup pricing on my sales thread, you’re not on my nice list.

Anyone who says an EV has “bad power” likely hasn’t ever driven one.
 
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Lastblade

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How much did you get that i3 for? I am thinking of getting a used one as well to dib my toes in the EV world. Probably one of those that has dual motor or whatever that can run on gas as well.

I don't buy new cars any more, I pretty much only buy Japanese luxury brands (Acura/Lexus) since their depreciation is huge and their standard equipment, even a few years old, is still on par with new vehicles. I bought a 3yr old RDX for 21k that was stickered at 41k (not including some of the extra equipment the original owner paid for).
 

NeoSneth

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Buying and Selling is such a hassle. These dealerships have no idea that consumers are willing to pay more if they just put that bullshit aside. It's one of the nice things with Carmax and carmax equivalents. You know the price, with some minor fees. Click, buy, done.

It's the same reason i'd rather use peddle.com than try to sell to a private owner. People are now programmed to haggle and come up with bullshit. Just take my car from me, and you can sell it for market value.
 

FAT$TACKS

Not Average Joe., Not Average Homeowner., Not Aver
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How much did you get that i3 for? I am thinking of getting a used one as well to dib my toes in the EV world. Probably one of those that has dual motor or whatever that can run on gas as well.

I don't buy new cars any more, I pretty much only buy Japanese luxury brands (Acura/Lexus) since their depreciation is huge and their standard equipment, even a few years old, is still on par with new vehicles. I bought a 3yr old RDX for 21k that was stickered at 41k (not including some of the extra equipment the original owner paid for).
The I3 has some of the highest depreciation out there so a really nice one can be had for under 20K. The one I snagged was off lease cpo, loaded and really low miles and has the gas engine range extender. Even if you didn't charge it and just ran on gas it should still get about 30ish mpg. They come off lease and don't get bought because they sell for less than what would be owed to buy them.

Seems like a good value for the money to me at least. We'll see how I feel about it as time goes by. But for that price I was comfortable taking the gamble. I think it is one of those cars that really depends on the person's situation as to if it will work out for them.

It's more just I wanted to play with this thing than anything and try out an EV.
 

@M

Vanessa's Drinking Buddy,
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I have a foolproof solution for any car dealership: if they give you any shit at all, just tell them that Ice T sent you.
 
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