Broken or not, here I come...

[Takumaji]

LWK inspired me to start this topic...

Simple question, do bugs, glitches and overpowered charas in 2D fighters affect your rating of a game?

Most ppl agree that games like SvC could be considered buggy, but does buggy = broken? And, does broken = unplayable?

Let's hear what you guys think, I'll add my views later on.

 

[Late]

Hum.

Not really, since I usually play my games "just for fun" vs. my mates, etc. And in that kind of situations.

a) You don`t have to abuse them characters, play like the good children we are.

b) My friends are mainly pc gamers, who aren`t that literate with the neo so on top of a) that would be uber cheap on my behalf.

The thing that affects my "rating" of a fighter is gameplay, as in the game mechanics itself, for example the radical difference between ssIII & IV`s gameplay made me feel that the latter is a semi-expensive turd, aquired only for the sake of completeness.

disclaimah : By gameplay I mean the way it`s meant to be played, and the hands-on feel you get with a game you are relatively new to. I play mainly SS and LB series, I´m no KOF guru.

p.S I`ll back up Takumaji on the fact that AOF3 is an exellent game, even though I no longer own it . Broken, etc. sheesh, It`s an exellent allaround "package"

 

[neo>all]

agreed, ss3 and aof3 are perhaps the best of the underrated games for the neo.
Although i found the constant knock downs in aof3 to be far too frequent

 

[Late]

agreed, ss3 and aof3 are perhaps the best of the underrated games for the neo.
Although i found the constant knock downs in aof3 to be far too frequent

Agreed, while Aof3 is imo an aquired taste, the reason people ragged on ssIII is just that they found the learning curve intimidating. In a sense this is amusing that people buy these quite expensive games and can`t be bothered to spend time with them. Out of my very meager collection, I`d say that Lb1 and ssIII still get most of my attention.

 

[Neo Gold]

LWK inspired me to start this topic...

Simple question, do bugs, glitches and overpowered charas in 2D fighters affect your rating of a game?

Most ppl agree that games like SvC could be considered buggy, but does buggy = broken? And, does broken = unplayable?

Let's hear what you guys think, I'll add my views later on.

No..not at all for me...not on the neo anyway, i feel it makes the game unique...not unplayable definately not..certain playing styles need to be adapted.
And on the neo...no two fighters play the same.
Btw... I love SVC SS3 & AOF3 to bits....there are many 'what ifs' in the ngh library,
but you have just got to appreciate them...for what they are...nothings ever perfect or we would never have improvement?..heh...although don't quote me over the KOF series!! or sam sho either!.

 

[metallizer]

Bugs and balance issues takes alot of replay value from a game. Its still fun to play those games for awhile but once these problems start to get annoying, it makes the game less and less enjoyable so I just give up and move for something else.

 

[jaydubnb]

LWK inspired me to start this topic...

Simple question, do bugs, glitches and overpowered charas in 2D fighters affect your rating of a game?

Most ppl agree that games like SvC could be considered buggy, but does buggy = broken? And, does broken = unplayable?

Let's hear what you guys think, I'll add my views later on.

Bugs I can't deal with. If I'm attempting to punch you, i don't want to phase through you like Kitty Pryde. However, overpowered characters are more tolerable....in small amounts. Dou Lon in 2K3 as an example. He can be abusable in the right hands, but the game is fun overall so I can overlook that.

But when it comes to multiple characters being broken to the point where players pretty much have to chooe a certain few characters just to compete...? Well, thats a problem.

 

[Magnaflux]

A good engine is the source of my entertainment.

An engine so reliable like kof '98/'02 you KNOW and can predict what will happen leads me to take risks I otherwise wouldn't. It's funny, vs a skilled '98 player when the cpu bogs down to decide who threw the first super, that is quite class imo.

In SvC when all sorts of crazy shit happens, it kills the competition imo but I can still appreciate it for being entertaining.

 

[Baseley09]

I have no concept of "competitive play", nor do I have any interest.

It is noticable even from my stand point that there are problems with for example, SVC, where something goes annoyingly wrong.

However, I play games purely to be pleased asthetically and have fun. The pleasing asthetic comes from my actions playing the game. Bar a few BG's, SVC is one of the best delights ive played, i'd actually condsider it great.

in the same way that the somewhat post modern "CVS", appeals to me leagues more than it's sequel.

 

[kafuin_gaira]

i think one of the only really broken/buggy/glitchy games that maintains balance and playability is capcom's xmen vs. street fighter.

when everyone has an infinite or glitch, it's actually quite entertaining and even challenging. on the other hand, when a handful of characters own the rest of the cast for free (svc) it's just poor testing and balance.

there will always be characters in games that have more strengths than they do weaknesses, and this is ok. it'd be virtually impossible to balance a game to the point where this wasn't the case, and if it were done the game would probably be boring as hell.

 

[qube]

I think the responses thus far have done a decent job of summing it up. It depends on how you play.

I used to (USED TO) play CvS2 competitively on a weekly basis, in both small tourneys and large. After RCing became the most abused glitch in my memory of tournament play, I lost interest. Not because I can't do it, I can, but because it hurt the game dramatically. Sure, I can choose to play an N-Groove BSC team just to win like most other people, but then the game loses something...fun factor. Not to mention how naturally broken some of the characters in the game are w/o RCing. If there are too many glitches/bugs/poorly programmed characters/damage ratios, sure, it can hurt the game. CvS2 is far from "unplayable", in fact it is one of the most enjoyable fighters to play in casual, but at a higher level I can't stand it.

I guess the juxtapostion described in just that one game answers the question for me overall. It just depends on how you are playing and who you are playing with.

My friends and I play SamSho III all the time. It's broke as fuck damage wise and with things like Amakusa's cDx4 "combo", but it's still fun because it is at an admittedly low level of play. Were SSIII to make a comeback and be the next game at Evo or something, I don't think I would throw my hat in the ring, but since that's not the case it's a blast to play.

No fighting game has ever been unplayable to me personally if it is fun. Even broke-ass Heidern in KOF '01 couldn't ruin a solid game from a funfactor standpoint.

Shit, I could go on and on since I'm rambling in circles anyways...

SFIII: TS has karas, but it's still a near perfect game. Garou has Kevin Rian, but it's almost perfection as well.

Just depends on circumstances I suppose

Q-

 

[genjiglove]

Overpowered characters aren't a problem. Usually, unless you are playing someone REALLY good, you can at least keep the match interesting no matter what. Bugs and glitches on the other hand I hate. But I guess it can't keep a game from being competetive, I mean, look at Marvel vs. Capcom 2.

 

[qube]

Overpowered characters aren't a problem. Usually, unless you are playing someone REALLY good.

Even a half-ass player using Sagat on CvS2 is better than most good players using say, Kyosuke or Kyo, or whoever else.

Sagat - cFierce, sFierce, Super, all you need to know.

 

[Hmkay]

the reason people ragged on ssIII is just that they found the learning curve intimidating.

I'd rather say it's because the series has sequels that feature all of the SS3 characters... So, why bother with SS3 when you can play a better game with more characters ? I know many won't agree with this, but whatever.

As for AoF 3, I don't like it either (weird gameplay, awful character designs).
I like AoF 2 better...

 

[Kazuki Dash]

Bugs I can't deal with. If I'm attempting to punch you, i don't want to phase through you like Kitty Pryde. However, overpowered characters are more tolerable....in small amounts. Dou Lon in 2K3 as an example. He can be abusable in the right hands, but the game is fun overall so I can overlook that.

But when it comes to multiple characters being broken to the point where players pretty much have to choose a certain few characters just to compete...? Well, thats a problem.

agreed...SS2 Ukyo is another example of an overpowered character that doesn't diminish a game's playability

 

[neo>all]

I'd rather say it's because the series has sequels that feature all of the SS3 characters... So, why bother with SS3 when you can play a better game with more characters ? I know many won't agree with this, but whatever.

As for AoF 3, I don't like it either (weird gameplay, awful character designs).
I like AoF 2 better...

I know the later games in the series provided more characters but ss3 just has a flavor all it's own. It's probably the darkest and stylish of them all and if i haven't emphisized it enough ss3 is the only game that totally revamped the character sprites and i respect it for that. What i like most about aof3 is the animation and music. The gameplay could have been tweaked a little more. When you're knocked down you stay down for way too long which is probably to encourage hitting downed opponents like karmans sweet ass punch where he pulls your head up and knocks it down ^^. I still think they should have made one more sequel where they fix the weird game play, give the other characters more of a story, and add a few more characters.(yuri, takuma?)

 

[SonGohan]

I think the responses thus far have done a decent job of summing it up. It depends on how you play.

I used to (USED TO) play CvS2 competitively on a weekly basis, in both small tourneys and large. After RCing became the most abused glitch in my memory of tournament play, I lost interest. Not because I can't do it, I can, but because it hurt the game dramatically. Sure, I can choose to play an N-Groove BSC team just to win like most other people, but then the game loses something...fun factor. Not to mention how naturally broken some of the characters in the game are w/o RCing. If there are too many glitches/bugs/poorly programmed characters/damage ratios, sure, it can hurt the game. CvS2 is far from "unplayable", in fact it is one of the most enjoyable fighters to play in casual, but at a higher level I can't stand it.

I guess the juxtapostion described in just that one game answers the question for me overall. It just depends on how you are playing and who you are playing with.

My friends and I play SamSho III all the time. It's broke as fuck damage wise and with things like Amakusa's cDx4 "combo", but it's still fun because it is at an admittedly low level of play. Were SSIII to make a comeback and be the next game at Evo or something, I don't think I would throw my hat in the ring, but since that's not the case it's a blast to play.

No fighting game has ever been unplayable to me personally if it is fun. Even broke-ass Heidern in KOF '01 couldn't ruin a solid game from a funfactor standpoint.

Shit, I could go on and on since I'm rambling in circles anyways...

SFIII: TS has karas, but it's still a near perfect game. Garou has Kevin Rian, but it's almost perfection as well.

Just depends on circumstances I suppose

Q-

It's funny, because I hate RCs as well. There's lots of CvS2 fans that defend this saying it makes lower tiers able to compete better, which I kind of agree, but have you ever seen an RC Honda? There's something about a huge sprite flying across the screen that you aren't able to hit that's just wrong. Still, even though the CBS teams are overpowered, they aren't broken. They're very beatable.

Would you even consider karas a bug in TS? It's basically just cancelling.

 

[qube]

It's funny, because I hate RCs as well. There's lots of CvS2 fans that defend this saying it makes lower tiers able to compete better, which I kind of agree, but have you ever seen an RC Honda? There's something about a huge sprite flying across the screen that you aren't able to hit that's just wrong. Still, even though the CBS teams are overpowered, they aren't broken. They're very beatable.

RC Honda, Evo 2k2 finals. Unfortunately there are no good vids b/c the direct feed didn't work right that year so there is no DVD. I have some VHS footage that my friend filmed though, and it is broke as fuck. As for the CBS teams not being broken, when you factor in RCing they are My RC Hibiki doesn't stand a chance against RC Sagat or Bison. RCing doesn't really level the playing field simply because every character (including the you know whos) can use it.

I played in a tourney that John Choi was in 2 years ago, and he almost lost to Fubarduck's (Ryan Harvey) team of A-Groove Sagat, Sakura, Honda solely based on Fubarduck's mastery of RCing. Total shit man.

Would you even consider karas a bug in TS? It's basically just cancelling.

I do personally, only because they weren't intentionally meant to be cancelled. Same thing as RCing really, it's just cancelling too
At least karas aren't near as gamebreaking though. Unless you're talking Makoto. An almost bottom tier character except for her ability to karajuggle after SA2.

Another thing that diferentiates the kara from the RC to me is the fact that every character in TS has useful karas. Can't say the same for RCing in CvS2. RC hardly makes Kyosuke or Maki or a slew of other characters rise on the tier list.

Q-

 

[beelzebubble]

yeah broken pisses me off. when everyone in the arcade uses duolon/zero/yoshitora and uses them well.... gets boring and frustrating very quickly.

at the highest levels shit has to be balanced or its not gonna be fun nor have staying power. in japan anyways.

thats what keeps me going back to rb2.

 

[genjiglove]

I always thought karas were put in intentionally.

Can someone tell me exactly what roll cancelling is? I've heard CVS2 players complain about it, but I know almost nothing about the game.

 

[qube]

I always thought karas were put in intentionally.

Not that I have ever heard, but it's possible I guess.

Can someone tell me exactly what roll cancelling is? I've heard CVS2 players complain about it, but I know almost nothing about the game.

It involves cancelling a roll imediately after you do it. What happens is you gain the invincibility of the roll animation's frames w/o actually having to roll. Instead you cancel into a move such as 'Giefs spinning lariat or Blanka's roll and so on. End result is that the move becomes invincible, thus successfully breaking the fuck out of the game

If you ever watch a vid and you see a character whiff a move and get smacked by something that you know doesn't have priority and you go, "WTFOMGBROKEN??!!!111!!1oneoneone!!1"

That's RC in action baby.

Q-

 

[genjiglove]

I don't know and have never heard anything about karas being put in intentionally, so I really have no idea. I just assumed they were. I suppose it could be something similar to roll cancelling.

 

[qube]

I don't know and have never heard anything about karas being put in intentionally, so I really have no idea. I just assumed they were. I suppose it could be something similar to roll cancelling.

It is. It's just cancelling an action before the animation actually starts up. Same premise. When you RC with Akuma for example you can hear his grunt as the roll starts up, same thing if you kara with his standing strong

Q-

 

[evil wasabi]

I agreed with a lot of stated opinions in the thread.

SSII Ukyo didn't detract from the game, even though he stands far above his closest tiers.

SSIII's infinites didn't detract from the game much, though giving in to the temptation to use them can make the game turn into something rudimentary.

The infinites in KoF 97 really don't hurt the game at all for me, as I can do them if I want, but don't (because it's unneccessary), and never fought anyone who did.

SvC was a pretty solid game. It wasn't made by the full force of SNK pre-2000, but it's still really fun, and I love the sprites for new characters and the variety of play styles incorporated from the character's original games.

Here's what kills a game: poor hit detection. SvC suffered from this, but it didn't hurt it's quality for me that much. It does hurt when it affects one of my bread and butter characters, like say Leona. I'm not naming names, but if a KoF changed the way I play Leona because certain moves don't hit the same way, I'd probably hate that game.

 

[SonGohan]

I do personally, only because they weren't intentionally meant to be cancelled. Same thing as RCing really, it's just cancelling too
At least karas aren't near as gamebreaking though. Unless you're talking Makoto. An almost bottom tier character except for her ability to karajuggle after SA2.

Another thing that diferentiates the kara from the RC to me is the fact that every character in TS has useful karas. Can't say the same for RCing in CvS2. RC hardly makes Kyosuke or Maki or a slew of other characters rise on the tier list.

Q-

Karas weren't intentional? I think you're wrong on this. Karas are just cancels into special moves. Kara throws work because the throw is considered a special. You're canceling the first few frames of a normal into a special. Kara throws allow for throws you'd normally not be in range to do. I don't see how this affects the game negatively at all. Even Ken's kara srk isn't even that bad.

RC you can tell shouldn't be in the game. It allows for things that are just plain wrong. You don't know how many tournament shit I've seen like a Blanka flying through a Ryu hadoken and Ryu himself. Shit that makes it look like the hit boxes were turned off in some debug.