Big boy thread: buying and maintaining an investment property

playboycougar

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So I know this doesn't really fit the mood here, but what the hell, I figured some may be able to offer some insight.

I'm thinking of purchasing an investment property,specifically, a two family house to rent both apartments out. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Things you do or would have done differently?

Thanks
 

theMot

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I have bought a few properties over the years, made money here and there. Its really something you have to stick with for the long term. My advice to you would be make sure you get a tenant who knows what a screw driver looks like... I have had to get people in to fix very trivial things over the years cause the tenant wouldnt lift a finger to fix anything. Im not sure how it is in the states but here in oz the onus is on the landlord to fix everything.
 

rarehero

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So I know this doesn't really fit the mood here, but what the hell, I figured some may be able to offer some insight.

I'm thinking of purchasing an investment property,specifically, a two family house to rent both apartments out. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Things you do or would have done differently?

Thanks

There are checks for credit you can do,
crazy on the other hand.
 

aria

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Let me play a bit of devil's advocate and say I think property isn't always best way to earn a good nest egg.

There have been numerous studies about how home prices have appreciated and they're simply not impressive (save for a short stretch that ended with the recent housing collapse... so again, it's being averaged out right now). I don't want to just say that without numbers, so here's an article I just picked off a Google that summarizes many of the major indexes, the bottom line is: once you take out the factors such as new houses averaging larger and larger, take out inflation, etc, you end up with an appreciation rate that's not much over 1% nationally. Now have people beat that? Of course, you have to be wise about where to buy and predict development --hell, if you can find out what the giant developers are planning, that would help know where to invest. But it's still a risky overall strategy if big long-term gains are what you want and you don't necessarily give it your all. Rental properties can be good if you can price it out --but you need to build a large number of rental units before you start really raking in any major profit.

Don't get me wrong, if you're willing to wait you can make a decent sized chunk of money on property, and there are psychological benefits to owning property (this is mine!); it's just that there are other, fairly conservative investments that can often give a better rate of return --and that's what this is all about in the end, rate of return. I'm not going to claim I'm some investment genius, I'm a pretty passive investor, but what I do want to see are some more consistent (realistic, not Madoff-territory) gains. Most of my money are in index funds (a mix of safer and riskier), because they're no-load --studies tend to show that actively managed mutual funds tend to do as well as passive index funds once you take into account the cost (or load, paying the person managing it) of owning them (index funds aren't free, but they frequently charge very lower percentages). These are long term investments so I'm hoping to do well in the long run. Here's a study of 20 yr rate of returns on some of the popular ones--the big caveat is this is from 2007 so the rate of the previous 5-yrs is inflated by the economy. Still, quite a few continued to gain at reasonable rates during the down economy. If you want to know more just read the popular book Bogleheads or visit their forum.

Someone I respect when it comes to investing said these are the three easy lessons to become a millionaire in the long run:
  • Start investing early
  • Index funds are a safe bet
  • Own things that appreciate, lease things that depreciate

Sorry if this is a disjointed post, I just felt like throwing ideas into the hat. On a side note: if you're ever convinced the US economy is going to totally collapse, jump into gold, precious metals, etc. I'm staying away because I think the prices on those are peaking.
 

Lastblade

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So I know this doesn't really fit the mood here, but what the hell, I figured some may be able to offer some insight.

I'm thinking of purchasing an investment property,specifically, a two family house to rent both apartments out. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Things you do or would have done differently?

Thanks

Do you anticipate the rent will be more than your mortgage? If so, then at least it *might* be worth your time. Otherwise, stay far away given the depressed housing market.

I have had 2 rental properties and I was able to break even for one and lose about $50/month on the other. But, that's not really my issue. It is all the other bullshit I have to deal with that makes owning a rental property a big headache. Last year, I had to replace a refridgerator in one of my units, and spent almost $1000 on a plumbing/heating issue. It just isn't worth the hassle/my time. I rather invest in shit that I don't have to take care of. If we are in 2003, then I say go for it since you will at least build some equity. Not now, you might not build any equity in 5 years so as an investment, you should make some $$ from monthly rent and hope nothing breaks (and your tenants don't call you at 2am).

I ended up selling one of the units and made like 10k. It sounded like a lot but really isn't considering I put in at least 5k back in the place for the 5 years that I owned it. I rather not have to deal with finding tenants (interviewing them, showing the place, running credit checks, negotiate, all the PITA stuff). I just put my other place on the market as well and I will definitely lose about 10k on it. But that's a lesson learned.

One more thing, I had to evict my other tenant last year, it only costed me $1200 in lawyer's fees and he voluntarily moved out so I didn't have to pay sheriff after the judgement. So I lost 4-5 months of rent, months of frustration of dealing with an asshole and had to clean up the place afterwards. Good times (I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER invest in rental property).
 
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playboycougar

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Thanks for the perspective and good, solid information Bobak. The low cost of borrowing and the bargin prices in the area pushes me toward property. Dealing with tenants (time), and cost of repairs pushes me away.

Does anyone have a perspective on the tax advantages of owning multiple pieces of property and the effect that has compared to other investments? Something I really don't know anything about.

Thanks!
 

aria

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I should add that there will probably never be a better time to borrow money in our lifetime, with low interest rates and tax incentives making the interest rates closer to 2% when all is said and done. Ask your parents what their interest rates were, they were closer to or above 10%. So if you are going to get property and borrow money for it, this is the best time. Even if they hit this number again, you can't really go lower. If they do, well... buy gold and weapons because society as we know is probably about to end.

Hell, the best prices I've seen are on houses that were in the $8-15m range that are now half or less than half. If they're in the right location (perpetual highly desirable location, already built up), then they're going to go back up--I wish I had that kind of money to buy something at the $2-$5m range.
 

Sherlin

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My bro-in-law has done this before. Just be sure that you are a good handy-man and that you state consequences for late payment.
 

evil wasabi

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You need a good lease. Typical leases are milquetoast compared to what I can provide you. However, I'm not a NJ lawyer so you need to purchase your investment property in the DC metro area. That way I can represent you. I have successfully evicted countless old people. I await your pm for more details on how we can work together.
 

norton9478

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The first rule of land-lording is to never lose a good tenant. Particularly one that always pays the rent on time.
 

Lastblade

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The first rule of land-lording is to never lose a good tenant. Particularly one that always pays the rent on time.

Yup, this is true. I have not raised rent because of good tenants. Been lucky with 1 property and not so lucky on the other.
 

HeartlessNinny

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On a side note: if you're ever convinced the US economy is going to totally collapse, jump into gold, precious metals, etc. I'm staying away because I think the prices on those are peaking.

You had a great post up until this. Freaking out and buying gold is often a terrible idea -- it's a real crap shoot, if nothing else. Don't invest anything you can't afford to lose.

It's worthwhile to point out that a good investment is potentially just as lucrative and much less labour-intensive than a rental property, though.
 

aria

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You had a great post up until this. Freaking out and buying gold is often a terrible idea -- it's a real crap shoot, if nothing else. Don't invest anything you can't afford to lose.

It's worthwhile to point out that a good investment is potentially just as lucrative and much less labour-intensive than a rental property, though.

Gold won't totally bottom out. At the first signs of an economic downturn, big investors start moving into gold. Just look what happened when the economy started to go south in this chart:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/popup/au3650nyb.html

It should theoretically drop or at least plateau when the economy improves.
 

HeartlessNinny

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Gold won't totally bottom out. At the first signs of an economic downturn, big investors start moving into gold. Just look what happened when the economy started to go south in this chart:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/popup/au3650nyb.html

It should theoretically drop or at least plateau when the economy improves.

All I'm saying is you can really take a beating on gold if you don't know what you're doing, which most panicky gold investors don't.

To me gold is a real varsity level investment. One ought not to dabble in it until you're really sure you know what you're doing and you have some good investment experience under your belt. It's a potentially very exploitative market.
 

playboycougar

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I'm only doing this if I can make money on the property while also building equity. I think it's possible given low borrowing rates, where I'm looking to buy, and cash on hand. It's silly not to buy property now if you're in a position to do so, these rates are unsustainable for the long term!

Anyone have any insight about my question related to tax?
Does anyone have a perspective on the tax advantages of owning multiple pieces of property and the effect that has compared to other investments?
 
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galfordo

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Be extremely careful.

People have been calling bottoms for the real estate market for several years now.

One set of bad tenants, one dispute with a tenant, and any profit will go right down the toilet, and then some.
 

lithy

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How will your tenants feel about having a 13 year old landlord? ;)
 

rarehero

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How will your tenants feel about having a 13 year old landlord? ;)

high five man.

but I think that's the big thing that I'd bring up.
It's hard to find good tenants.
Depending on how much you find the house for
and in what time you can pay off the house so you could get a net profit
but there's always maintenance to worry about.
Expensive crap like the roof, appliances, plumbing and fixtures.
If you're handy, it's a dream job.
 

SNKorSWM

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Mortgage rate might be in an all time low, but property tax isn't...
 

Xavier

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You can have a realitor manage the property for you so you dont have to do anything. Im sure it'd cut into profits.
The strategy to real estate and renting should be long term. Month to month year to year you'll be lucky if you break even.
The idea is you own it for 15-20 years and have something you paid say $90k for now worth $250k all while somebody else paid down the original cost by paying rent monthly. My only problem is that renters usually don't give a crap about a place, its not thiers and they'll run it into the ground or flat out ruin it in just a few years. One of my neighbors rented thier place seems like they needed to do a total remodel every couple years every couple years. Either you do that somthing in the middle or be a slumlord.
 

OMFG

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So I know this doesn't really fit the mood here, but what the hell, I figured some may be able to offer some insight.

I'm thinking of purchasing an investment property,specifically, a two family house to rent both apartments out. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Things you do or would have done differently?

Thanks

Check to see what the interest rate for rental property purchases. It would be generally higher due to you not living on property. Here in CT, the interest rate is much higher on a loan for a rental investment. If it happens to be a 3 unit house and if you're listed as a tenant, you may be able to apply for a lower conventional loan. If this is your first property, you may qualify for FHA (CFHA if qualified). If it's a fixer upper that has four units or less, an FHA 203k loan could be applied for. A good realtor that knows mortgage processing should be able to find out what works for you in NJ.

Maintaining a property is no joke. Setting up a security deposit account (minor), physical maintenance of the property, addressing issues of the tenants, property tax hikes, and other things will take up your time. Also, eviction is a bitch and a half to process. Be prepared to screen the shit out of your tenants prior to renting out.
 
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