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well, it's directed by a trashy looking tranny after all...
A semi-serious discussion on transgender issues
- Thread starter StevenK
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well, it's directed by a trashy looking tranny after all...
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I can see that you don't want to be drawn on this. It's clear you're conflicted.
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I'm not conflicted at all.
I'm more than willing to treat trans-woman as women under the law and society.
There may be some quirks about how things work out in specific instances, but I am more than willing to give it a go and hope they work themselves out.
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It's all well and good what you're prepared to do, but it's not you that stands to lose out. And my entire original point was that there are what you are terming 'quirks'. I just see them as exceptionally dangerous quirks that kind and considerate people are being hoodwinked into ignoring, hoping they will somehow go away.
As I understand it the LGBTQ+ community is in a mess right now. The fact is that the T is in direct conflict with the LG and B. How can someone be gay if gender is now meaningless? How on earth did straight men somehow take over the gay movement? That's an impressive coup.
And modern transgenderism probably isn't what you think of it as. If you're thinking of feminine gay men who want to have sex changes think again. The vast majority are straight men with a fetish. Look up autogynephilia. The future of trans women is tits, dicks and beards.
Mr.Bojangles
War Room Troll
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I dont really care if they want to identify as a hamburger, so long as they can be a productive member of society. If they're genuinely good people, I have no problems being friends with them and welcome them with open arms. At the end of the day I only care if the person is pure of heart and just wants acceptance because theyve been hurt all their lives. In a country that has been divided for so long, I think it's time we start healing relationships with the American people, no matter what color, sex, or sexual preference. I will not lie I am a Christian, but I am an open minded one at that. God is about love and acceptance for all. You do not under any circumstances alienate, belittle and humiliate someone for loving another consenting adult. God is love, love made for everyone. I would feel horrible if a bigoted comment came from my mouth and caused someone to hurt themselves. We need to be there for one another, because life is too short to be fighting over trivial things which hold no meaning and purpose but to hurt and humiliate.
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What has transgenderism got to do with loving another consenting adult?
What is trivial about men pretending to be women then raping in women's prisons?
What is this shit?
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I have a few transgender people in my life (including friends) and like others have said, they deserve the love, respect and dignity afforded to every other person, both under the law and as a culture. Trans men are men, trans women are women. While I'll spend far more time focusing on small details, it's important to note that 99% of this is easily solved and it's not being a dick, letting people live their lives and minding your own fucking business.
That being said, the only real issue is activist lunatics on social media. There's a loud, fringe minority that is anti-science (who can't acknowledge the difference between sex and gender, that don't want ANY research done in to gender dysphoria even when it's largely designed to help them live longer, happier lives and who can't comprehend that HRT doesn't magically reverse years/decades of bathing in testosterone/estrogen when it comes to biological differences in the sexes) and will shout anyone down no matter their intentions if they go against the rigid orthodoxy.
The womens' sports thing is also a relatively small problem but it does speak fundamentally to where the rubber meets the road when it comes to the rights of transgender people. You can be a totally reasonable person who believes in the rights, respect and dignity of trans people but allowing a transgender woman to participate in any womens' sport where strength and physicality will determine their success or failure is tantamount to admitting that you don't think cis women should get to participate in competitive sports. The science and the data is in on that... transgender women will dominate any womens' sport they are allowed to participate in, regardless of how long they've been on HRT and how low they can get their T-levels. It's simple biology.
So how do you answer that? Trans-only sports competitions (which tells them that they are different and separate from women)? Or allowing trans women to participate and have every record in every sport fall because you have the 1970s East German swim team showing up legally to every event and essentially ensuring that cis women have more or less no chance to achieve true greatness in their beloved sport? Not easy.
But the answer isn't being a piece of shit and calling them trannies and misgendering them, etc. It's also not bending over and just letting them do whatever they want. It's about doing the research and coming up with reasonable, fair-headed solutions that allow for the dignity of all people involved. Whatever the fuck that is.
That being said, the only real issue is activist lunatics on social media. There's a loud, fringe minority that is anti-science (who can't acknowledge the difference between sex and gender, that don't want ANY research done in to gender dysphoria even when it's largely designed to help them live longer, happier lives and who can't comprehend that HRT doesn't magically reverse years/decades of bathing in testosterone/estrogen when it comes to biological differences in the sexes) and will shout anyone down no matter their intentions if they go against the rigid orthodoxy.
The womens' sports thing is also a relatively small problem but it does speak fundamentally to where the rubber meets the road when it comes to the rights of transgender people. You can be a totally reasonable person who believes in the rights, respect and dignity of trans people but allowing a transgender woman to participate in any womens' sport where strength and physicality will determine their success or failure is tantamount to admitting that you don't think cis women should get to participate in competitive sports. The science and the data is in on that... transgender women will dominate any womens' sport they are allowed to participate in, regardless of how long they've been on HRT and how low they can get their T-levels. It's simple biology.
So how do you answer that? Trans-only sports competitions (which tells them that they are different and separate from women)? Or allowing trans women to participate and have every record in every sport fall because you have the 1970s East German swim team showing up legally to every event and essentially ensuring that cis women have more or less no chance to achieve true greatness in their beloved sport? Not easy.
But the answer isn't being a piece of shit and calling them trannies and misgendering them, etc. It's also not bending over and just letting them do whatever they want. It's about doing the research and coming up with reasonable, fair-headed solutions that allow for the dignity of all people involved. Whatever the fuck that is.
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So basically something we've proven time and time again we're unable to do for whatever reason. I hate to say it, but norton might be onto something with his "society is ill" stance.
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The reason that women's sport is so often mentioned, and why I picked it out specifically here, is because it is a good illustration of where the current approach falls flat. But it is merely a small insight into the problem. If we think we can assimilate men into being women yet somehow make it ok simply by compartmentalising women's sport then we are beyond naive.
The heart of the issue is that women, who are officially recognised as an oppressed group, are being redefined as a privileged group, by straight men. In turn they are having the rights that have taken generations of fighting to achieve stripped away, or at least being forced to share with their oppressors.
Now I don't think being a woman is such a bad gig these days, but all of the things that made being a woman shit in the past has improved because they fought, and we, as men, gave it to them. And now we are taking it back again.
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The bolded part has been happening in some fucked up circles already.
My only issue with trans is when parents try to force that shit on their own children. To me a minor much less a teenager has no fucking idea what they want in life much less what gender they want to be. Let them deal with that when they're actual adults in the real world before forcing them to take hormone inhibitors.
And yes, Trans-Women have 0 fucking business being in actual women's sports. There is a clear advantage they have and it's fucking stupid that people are pretending that it's not there.
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Well, that's awfully big of you, since you have no skin in the game and it affects your life not at all.
I think nearly all of us here are more than willing to treat trans people (again, like so many others, you only bring up trans women for some reason) as the gender they identify as. That's not the issue. The issue is people like you hand waving away "quirks" even when they affect other marginalized minority groups. Too bad for them, I guess! Because they are no longer at the top of the victimhood hierarchy. They had their time at the top, but now their opinions are meaningless again or even harmful and in need of shutting down, because it's the trans community's turn to be listened to. Gays and lesbians can now be lumped in with other compassionless oppressors. Progress!
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I was specifically asked about trans-women. Therefore I answered the question accordingly.
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If you want to extrapolate on this, be my guest.
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Beyond what I extrapolated in the rest of the post? I know that anything beyond knee jerk reactions, you need to be told what you're supposed to think, but please just try to figure it out yourself.
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clarity might lose the moral high ground
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The problem is the snake eating its own tail.
Like anything else, the fight for gay/lesbian rights began from a moral and just place. When the growing AIDS epidemic was once mocked as being the "gay plague" by Lester Kinsolving, and gay couples had no legal rights to marriage...there was plenty to fight for.
But that was then...and this is now, and things are quickly getting out of hand. The whole "sexual identity" is a prime example.
There was a time when homosexuality was labeled a mental disorder...just like gender dysphoria was (that I'm aware of, it now isn't?). Where that was a mistake, denouncing that opened the door for the people now wanting to be accepted as healthy individuals for their many true mental disorders.
Knowing many gay men, and a few lesbians, I can assure you that they really do not get along all that well (or, at a minimum, are often segregated from each other). There isn't the "unity" in the gay community that some think there is. Thus the whole "gay and lesbian" thing vs just being called a single group. It's not like they fight with each other, it's just not one big happy family. Gay culture and lesbian culture are two entirely different things.
To add to that, while many homosexuals just want to live their lives, there's a portion of them that do not, they are more than happy to shove their sexual preference in people's faces. Also on that note, they do not want anyone else pissing on their gay rights parade, either.
I assure you, speak a to gay or lesbian and ask them about bisexual people...watch some of them roll their eyes. Ask a lesbian about trans women...see the reaction you get from any of them.
What was once people simply wanting to be in a relationship to the same sex and have legal rights of straight couples became this absurd lifestyle with all these branches and offshoots.
Seriously, look at this stupidity:
https://outrightinternational.org/content/acronyms-explained
"LGBTQIA – Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer and/or Questioning, Intersex, and Asexual and/or Ally"
Fuck's sake.
Like some have mentioned...now that people with gender dysphoria are demanding legal rights...now we're beginning to open the doors on the truly insane, like pedophiles or people who want to claim they are a set age (like a 12 year old in a 39 year old body).
It is interesting to see where this all is going to go.
Like anything else, the fight for gay/lesbian rights began from a moral and just place. When the growing AIDS epidemic was once mocked as being the "gay plague" by Lester Kinsolving, and gay couples had no legal rights to marriage...there was plenty to fight for.
But that was then...and this is now, and things are quickly getting out of hand. The whole "sexual identity" is a prime example.
There was a time when homosexuality was labeled a mental disorder...just like gender dysphoria was (that I'm aware of, it now isn't?). Where that was a mistake, denouncing that opened the door for the people now wanting to be accepted as healthy individuals for their many true mental disorders.
Knowing many gay men, and a few lesbians, I can assure you that they really do not get along all that well (or, at a minimum, are often segregated from each other). There isn't the "unity" in the gay community that some think there is. Thus the whole "gay and lesbian" thing vs just being called a single group. It's not like they fight with each other, it's just not one big happy family. Gay culture and lesbian culture are two entirely different things.
To add to that, while many homosexuals just want to live their lives, there's a portion of them that do not, they are more than happy to shove their sexual preference in people's faces. Also on that note, they do not want anyone else pissing on their gay rights parade, either.
I assure you, speak a to gay or lesbian and ask them about bisexual people...watch some of them roll their eyes. Ask a lesbian about trans women...see the reaction you get from any of them.
What was once people simply wanting to be in a relationship to the same sex and have legal rights of straight couples became this absurd lifestyle with all these branches and offshoots.
Seriously, look at this stupidity:
https://outrightinternational.org/content/acronyms-explained
"LGBTQIA – Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer and/or Questioning, Intersex, and Asexual and/or Ally"
Fuck's sake.
Like some have mentioned...now that people with gender dysphoria are demanding legal rights...now we're beginning to open the doors on the truly insane, like pedophiles or people who want to claim they are a set age (like a 12 year old in a 39 year old body).
It is interesting to see where this all is going to go.
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Well, if you don't want to flesh it out, I can't help you.
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What does Auto-Fellatio have to do with it?
madman
Blame madman, You Know You Want To.,
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I haven't read all of this thread, but I agree w/smoke, as much as that pains me to say. Even my gay friends make fun of trannies. I really don't care if someone wants to be called a woman or identifies as a McRib sandwich, but it'd be interesting to talk to a trans person who wasn't diddled as a kid and ask why they feel they were born the wrong gender. The trannies we've had on this forum clearly had a LOT of fucked up mental issues.
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I'm listening.
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I was never a victim of any sexual assault...but I assure you, my gender dysphoria has a definite reason and backstory.
madman
Blame madman, You Know You Want To.,
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I'll be polite here and say I wasn't referring to you about being diddled as a child.
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I didn’t think that at all.
I do agree with you, I think that with some honesty on their part, the story of many people who have gender dysphoria would involve sexual abuse.