2d vs 3d fighting game popularity.

[SPINMASTER X]

A very well made point on the differences in popularity. Of course I know some of you on your high horses are still going to say "OMFG 3d is just button mashin' it doesn't take skill like 2d" but just sit down and watch and enjoy the video.

 

[Jassin000]

Popularity was a motivator for me in the old days when I first started playing SF2. Today, I just want to play what I like. Regardless of what anyone else has to say about it. I don't care for most 3D fighting games. Esp if the comparison is SF3 vs SF4, in every way it feels like a step backwards to me. I think thats my real issue with 3D fighters. I remember when I first played Virtua Fighter in the arcade... After the initial shock/amazement of "holy crap 3D" wore off, the game really did play like slow moving shit. Think of other games that were available at that time in terms of game play. Or even think about a fighter from the time period that would still enjoy today. Chances are its not VF1, likely because when you get right down to it the game play just isn't as strong.

 

[SNKorSWM]

Be it Soul Calibur or SF2. If it's good and I can find people to play with, I will. Doesn't matter if it's 2D or 3D.

 

[Late]

I never had any "3d antagonism" For some reason I enjoy mocking Tekken, even though there's nothing wrong with the games per se.

 

[NeoTheranthrope]

I can see were he's coming from as he's talking more about technical skill in Virtual Fighter (or Soul Calibur) as opposed to mash-to-win Tekken, but while it's old and basically forgotten by Capcom; but FUCK man... MOTHERFUCKING Rival Schools and Project Justice is everything 3D fighters SHOULD BE but aren't.
Fuck this industry.

 

[SPINMASTER X]

I can see were he's coming from as he's talking more about technical skill in Virtual Fighter (or Soul Calibur) as opposed to mash-to-win Tekken, but while it's old and basically forgotten by Capcom; but FUCK man... MOTHERFUCKING Rival Schools and Project Justice is everything 3D fighters SHOULD BE but aren't.
Fuck this industry.

Rivals schools is nothing but a 2d fighter with polygons. Why should every 3d fighter be that when 2d fighters are already that?

 

[Cylotron]

I think I'll hold off and wait for 4D...

 

[thatdemoguy]

I can see were he's coming from as he's talking more about technical skill in Virtual Fighter (or Soul Calibur) as opposed to mash-to-win Tekken, but while it's old and basically forgotten by Capcom; but FUCK man... MOTHERFUCKING Rival Schools and Project Justice is everything 3D fighters SHOULD BE but aren't.
Fuck this industry.

I dont recall where he said Tekken was "mash to win". Just you saying that in and of itself kinda proves his point about what people think just by a game's appearance. Im a high level Tekken player and I take just a bit of offense to people who really think Tekken can be mashed out.

Also like Spin said, Rival Schools and its sequel Project Justice are 2D fighters that use polygons and have moves that shift the plane, thus giving the appearance of being 3D. There is no advanced 3D movement in them, the primary fighting is done on one plane, so therefore what are either of those games doing that the other games arent?

O.

 

[dspoonrt]

While I generally prefer 2D fighters (SF 2/3, MVC2, XvSF, SFA2, KoF, MOTW, etc.), I love several 3D fighters (SCII, VF 4/5, TTT/TTT2, etc.). I don't hate a fighter just because it's in 3D. I hate some 3D fighters because they don't play very well. Many early 3D fighters had clunky controls, but I think the genre has come a long way since the mid-90s.

 

[SPINMASTER X]

I dont recall where he said Tekken was "mash to win". Just you saying that in and of itself kinda proves his point about what people think just by a game's appearance. Im a high level Tekken player and I take just a bit of offense to people who really think Tekken can be mashed out.

Also like Spin said, Rival Schools and its sequel Project Justice are 2D fighters that use polygons and have moves that shift the plane, thus giving the appearance of being 3D. There is no advanced 3D movement in them, the primary fighting is done on one plane, so therefore what are either of those games doing that the other games arent?

O.

Exactly. I just kinda overlooked that "mash-to-win" comment cuz I didn't have the energy to even get into it at the time but yeah, that was just straight up typical 2d fanboy uneducated bias. It's like they won't listen at all, even with a video that lays out the details about the differences. Their lack of ability to play 3d means that something is wrong with 3d. "Oh it takes less strategy", "oh 3d is actually just 2d, and not true 3d". Anything to make it seem like 3d is lesser. It takes 2 different mindsets and this video explains why.

 

[Taiso]

I don't even care if a game is 'mash to win' anymore because I don't care about the open competition scene anymore.

I'll watch evo matches and other high skill fights online and whatnot, but I no longer care whether or not I'm as good as those guys.

I love Soul Calibur as much for its schlocky lore as I do for the game engine. I no longer feel a sense of validation that 'my fighting game of choice' is regarded as good by others.

I acknowledge that they're not all made equal, however.

 

[Xian Xi]

It was never about the graphics for me, only gameplay. SF2 just perfected it and it's been hard to match since. Sometimes games just have too much stuff and kills the fun in the game. Just like Mortal Kombat, 1 and 2 I loved and then 3 came out and it was just a combo fest. Same with Marvel vs Capcom, I don't like the 2nd one much. At least KI had the combo breaker thing.

My fave thing though was line sway as it gave the player a different way to defend, plane shift was cool as well but took away from the action and turned into a game of chase.

 

[Poonman]

I agree with his notion that skill in 2d gaming is more visible while in 3d its more subtle....but I think he's blowing smoke out his ass in other points.


2d fighting skills aren't always as "transferable" as he makes them out to be....he also had this silly idea that a 3d game's engine from one game to the next (even within the same series?!) BECOMES TOTALLY DIFFERENT EVERY TIME! SUCH IS THE INSURMOUNTABLE BURDEN OF WE 3D FITE GAMERZ. But really, I think it's just talk, so theres no need to take him to task over it.

So aside from the martyr complex, it was nice commentary but by his own admission he doesn't have too much experience with the 2d stuff and is therefore not qualified to evaluate its merits/flaws....I know he's watched a lot of it on streams or wherever, but seeing something is way different from doing it.

 

[Poonman]

Another big thing that he seems to lament is the success of Mortal Kombat/SF and the obscurity of games like VF.

VF is a cool game and it's constantly improving, but aside from the complex mechanics the game has done little beyond pleasing its already existing fanbase....instead of enticing new gamers with zazz and bullshit, it remains a sterile, clinical, and soulless experience even after all these years.

From a money making perspective, what good is a tasty steak with no sizzle to draw you in?

EDIT: and lets not forget the role typical Japanese cultural isolationism played in all of this....not since VF2 have I heard or seen any mainstream attention being paid to the series.
It shows in the games too...every fighter with an origin from outside asia is just an empty template for that fighting style (at best) or a total fucking goofball. Jeffrey McWild is almost embarrassing to watch during those victory poses of his.

Guys like Goh Hinogami, Kage etc. have way more character than the empty skulls like El Blaze, Jacky Bryant etc....because the guys who made them have no fucking clue.
Neither does Capcom, but they are a household name and are therefore able to get away with it.

 

[Poonman]

Oh and here's another big reason both 2d and 3d gaming is steadily dying off..nobody in Japan is looking at their target demographic.
A lot of black and Latino people love KOF, and looking at the cast of XIII I have to wonder why.

For the longest time blacks/latinos had to settle for playing either as super cool badass japanese people or boring virtuous white Americans in their fighting games.
If you were a black guy looking to get into KOF right now, but you wanted some cast members you could relate to? Well, look no further than here:

SNKP has you covered.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

I would like to think I am awesome at 2d fighters and bad at 3d ones. The skills are NOT transferable by a long shot.

 

[BigFred]

I suck at 2D fighters. I liked Real Bout 2 because it played like my favourite 3D fighters and I was able to adapt to it easily. It just seems to pull off simple combos in most other 2D games the "links" were like just frame inputs which really turns me off.

But I am incredibly impatient as well, so I don't suit most 2D games because the footsies so to speak will cause me to attack with something stupid. I remember a mate of mine trying to school me on 2D games and he'd be like "We're playing a game of rock, paper, scissors and before we've even begun you're standing there holding out rock", "You got to hide your rock man". lol, good times either way...

 

[SonGohan]

No way I'm watching a 20 minute video about 3d fighters.

 

[trenog]

No way I'm watching a 20 minute video about 3d fighters.

Now a 20 minute video about 2d fighters...

 

[thatdemoguy]

Now a 20 minute video about 2d fighters...

At 4:15 thats me and my crew at last years Final Round tournament in Atlanta.

EDIT: theres a whole lot of clips from Final Round, we got busy.

O.

 

[jeff bogard]

@o.yashiro... Love fighters, i personally play 2d fighters> 3d fighters... but I enjoy watching high level matches... I might get into TTT2. are Nin, crow, and/or Knee going to make it to final round, love knee's style of play, my favourite Tekken player....

as for the subject, just by looking at sales alone, 3d fighters (AKA Tekken) is far more popular than 2d ones. It's just that there's a bit more 2d games now, but tekken kept it down when there were no 2d fighters releases (in HD per say). Tekken sells probably to this day far better than all the other 2d franchises 1 on1. Im sure 3d fighters are more popular.... heck if we count MK9 its clear that 3d ones are more popular... just my 2 cents... and dont feel like looking at the video... and IDK why we're talking about this haven't seen one of these threads in years

 

[thatdemoguy]

so far the major names confirmed for TTT2 this year at FR are

KOR
Anakin
Pokchop
Fighting GM
Waygamble
Rip and his hidden 5 man west coast squad (im thinking him, aris, jfj, runitblack, and incognito)
Crow
Jinkid
ClinttheBeast
AceUnlimited
NYCFAB
Kodee
Mr. Taxi
OfdP?
and of course
SilentSymphony (that's me lol)

but seriously if youre a tekken player, Final Round is THE tournament you have to make. its the wrestlemania or the super bowl of tekken tournaments. they are expecting at least a 256 man bracket. mind you that's the low estimate, three years ago there was a 400+ man bracket when KNEE and NIN came. plus on Friday there is the 5v5 high stakes regional battle ($100 per head) and then for the main tournament Namco has donated $5000 to the pot. and then all the personal grudge, money, and trashbag matches going on throughout the weekend. its gonna be CRAZY!!!!

O.

theres

 

[SonGohan]

Now a 20 minute video about 2d fighters...

God, that was great to watch. KOF XIII could very well be the greatest fighting game of all time.

 

[NeoGeoNinja]

God, that was great to watch. KOF XIII could very well be the greatest fighting game of all time.

Yeah, it could well be. The only problem I have with XIII (not that there's anything wrong with the game) is that the gameplay has become very centralised around combo's and the opportunity to link loads of stuff together. All you have to do is watch some of those exhibition vids to see what I mean.

Unlike the older KOF's, whenever I fire up XIII for a some casual fisticuffs, I just feels as though I'm not at all playing it properly, or how it wants to be played. And, at my age and my interest in fighters now, I just don't have that inclination to sit in practice mode anymore for hours on end. I'm not saying that I don't think KOF has evolved for the better, because I think it has. But I just don't feel like it has that pick up and play appeal of older 2D fighters due to how pretty much all fighters are more directed and designed around the more hardcore tournament scene, which has never appealed to me...

 

[N30_G30_speed]

For some reason I enjoy mocking Tekken, even though there's nothing wrong with the games per se.

good, I'm not the only one.

Yeah, it could well be. The only problem I have with XIII (not that there's anything wrong with the game) is that the gameplay has become very centralised around combo's and the opportunity to link loads of stuff together. All you have to do is watch some of those exhibition vids to see what I mean.

yup, I find that really discouraging, besides most of the people I play KOF with enjoy playing to older KOF like 98 or 2000, so even though I agree with the statement of "good evolution of XIII" I can never achieve a more entertaining gaming experience with XIII than with the others, not just for the lack of opponents but for that feeling of "not playing it right"