06-06-44 Anniversary

soopafamicom

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Today is the anniversary of Operation Overloard otherwise known as the D-Day landings.

Over 150,000 Allied troops were ferried ashore in the inital wave(operation Neptune) at the same time massive parachute drops and glider landings were implemented at more inland targets, over the following days a total of nearly 3 million men were landed on the French coast.

Does anyone have any relatives who had taken part in it, either falling at the time or are still with us?
 
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kernow

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They kept that quiet, I expect big brother and missing madeleine are far more important.
 

Takumaji

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D-Day... what the Allies did back then cannot be regarded highly enough, it was the day of birth of post-war Europe.

My father fought on the Eastern Front in 1944 at that time. He told me that when he learned from the Invasion in the Normandy, he and all his comrades knew that the days of the 3rd Reich were numbered. The whole thing had a tremendous psychological impact on the Wehrmacht and the Nazis as a whole, all of a sudden the "Fortress Europe" started to crumble down and finally gave in to the fierce attacks.

The Allied forced were lucky the Luftwaffe mostly were busy defending cities from bomber streams, the invasion would have succeeded anyway but I guess the casualties on the Allied side would have been much higher.
 

BoriquaSNK

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Takumaji said:
D-Day... what the Allies did back then cannot be regarded highly enough, it was the day of birth of post-war Europe.

My father fought on the Eastern Front in 1944 at that time. He told me that when he learned from the Invasion in the Normandy, he and all his comrades knew that the days of the 3rd Reich were numbered. The whole thing had a tremendous psychological impact on the Wehrmacht and the Nazis as a whole, all of a sudden the "Fortress Europe" started to crumble down and finally gave in to the fierce attacks.

The Allied forced were lucky the Luftwaffe mostly were busy defending cities from bomber streams, the invasion would have succeeded anyway but I guess the casualties on the Allied side would have been much higher.

I read something a little while back that was really interesting regarding modern German culture in the East vs West. Basically, it said that most of the neo-nazis today come from East Germany, because those from West Germany were raised with a sense of identity and responsibility towards the Third Reich and the Holocaust, those living in East Germany were told that since they were good communists they had no reason to feel guilty, hence the increase number of extreme right wingers in the East following the fall of the Soviets.

Coming from Germany, do you think there's any truth to that?

On a smaller scale, here in the US, those of us raised in Southern states that aren't stuck in the 1950's (read: The east coast from Virginia to Florida and Texas...the rest are backwards) were raised with a sense that we owned a part of slavery's legacy, and it's something that weighs deeply on the culture of my generation in particular. But I went to school in Philly where I experienced some of the most vicious and ignorant racists I've ever seen.
 

Takumaji

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Just saw your reply Boriqua, bit late but I find the topic at hand quite interesting.

BoriquaSNK said:
I read something a little while back that was really interesting regarding modern German culture in the East vs West. Basically, it said that most of the neo-nazis today come from East Germany, because those from West Germany were raised with a sense of identity and responsibility towards the Third Reich and the Holocaust, those living in East Germany were told that since they were good communists they had no reason to feel guilty, hence the increase number of extreme right wingers in the East following the fall of the Soviets.

Coming from Germany, do you think there's any truth to that?

There is truth to that but it is just one aspect of the whole problem with increasing Neo Nazism in Eastern Germany. In it's core, the East German youth organisations (namely the FDJ = "Freie Deutsche Jugend") were not that different from their Nazi counterpart Hitlerjugend, they both were created to indoctrinate kids and youngsters in order to breed willing worker and soldier bees for their communist hive.

Then the iron curtain fell in the early 90s and all of a sudden, the flowery promises of politicians like the then Chancellor Helmut Kohl turned to ashes. People were moving Westwards to escape their desolate situations and that's still going on, there are small towns in the East with only a handful of old folks while the younger people all went to work in West German cities.

Life became increasingly difficult for those who remained, jobs were and are scarce and there is a general feeling of being left alone. There are a lot of government support programs but none of them seem to work.

However, there always was a relatively strong Nazistic current underneath the communist and socialist layer of dangerous delusions but for the GDR government, Nazis simply did not exist, they even went as far as blaming responsibility for the cruel Nazi war crimes entirely on West Germany and their "corrupt capitalist system". In this light, the article you've read about East German Neonazis made a valid point, there never was a "de-nazification" like in the West over there.

After the wall came down, a giant vaccum appeared and sucked in all those politically homeless people, those were the days when all major political forces of the West moved Eastwards and simply overwhelmed the people there with their overly optimistic prophecies. Unable to see through what we Westerners would have called false political promises, many of them literally believed in what the Western politicians told them and voted for Helmut Kohl's party CDU.

A few years later when the last of these giant dream bubbles bursted, many East Germans slowly and quietly changed their minds about the GDR regime which they brought down with the peaceful revolution of '89, some of them fell into endless GDR nostalgia and started to long for "a strong hand", i. e. definite guidelines to live by. For decades, their quasi-stalinist government told them what to do, then democracy came and forced them to take responsibility for their actions, and not all of them could cope with that. This may sound strange to us but it's quite common in the aftermath of a dictatorship, Russia still has many social problems due to this very fact.

It's a shame what happens over there in East Germany... I've experienced these things first-hand when I was in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, if you happen to look not Aryan enough (I'm tall but I have long black hair and look more Greek than Teutonic) you may be in for serious trouble; some small villages are 100% Nazi. Police do nothing, how should they, they simply have too few officers, and even if they had enough men and equipment, it's doubtful wether a district attorney would shoulder the responsibility.
 

aria

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Tak, you just made me realize there's potential for a lot of money to made in parts of Germany: those towns filled with old people and no young people... buy them up. Pay them good money, then reorganize the area into something like American exurbs tailored to wealthy Europeans and Americans who want to retire or have a vacation home in "picturesque German settings". Of course, this may involve Disneyfying things --but money is money.
 

BoriquaSNK

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Takumaji said:
Just saw your reply Boriqua, bit late but I find the topic at hand quite interesting.



There is truth to that but it is just one aspect of the whole problem with increasing Neo Nazism in Eastern Germany. In it's core, the East German youth organisations (namely the FDJ = "Freie Deutsche Jugend") were not that different from their Nazi counterpart Hitlerjugend, they both were created to indoctrinate kids and youngsters in order to breed willing worker and soldier bees for their communist hive.

Then the iron curtain fell in the early 90s and all of a sudden, the flowery promises of politicians like the then Chancellor Helmut Kohl turned to ashes. People were moving Westwards to escape their desolate situations and that's still going on, there are small towns in the East with only a handful of old folks while the younger people all went to work in West German cities.

Life became increasingly difficult for those who remained, jobs were and are scarce and there is a general feeling of being left alone. There are a lot of government support programs but none of them seem to work.

However, there always was a relatively strong Nazistic current underneath the communist and socialist layer of dangerous delusions but for the GDR government, Nazis simply did not exist, they even went as far as blaming responsibility for the cruel Nazi war crimes entirely on West Germany and their "corrupt capitalist system". In this light, the article you've read about East German Neonazis made a valid point, there never was a "de-nazification" like in the West over there.

After the wall came down, a giant vaccum appeared and sucked in all those politically homeless people, those were the days when all major political forces of the West moved Eastwards and simply overwhelmed the people there with their overly optimistic prophecies. Unable to see through what we Westerners would have called false political promises, many of them literally believed in what the Western politicians told them and voted for Helmut Kohl's party CDU.

A few years later when the last of these giant dream bubbles bursted, many East Germans slowly and quietly changed their minds about the GDR regime which they brought down with the peaceful revolution of '89, some of them fell into endless GDR nostalgia and started to long for "a strong hand", i. e. definite guidelines to live by. For decades, their quasi-stalinist government told them what to do, then democracy came and forced them to take responsibility for their actions, and not all of them could cope with that. This may sound strange to us but it's quite common in the aftermath of a dictatorship, Russia still has many social problems due to this very fact.

It's a shame what happens over there in East Germany... I've experienced these things first-hand when I was in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, if you happen to look not Aryan enough (I'm tall but I have long black hair and look more Greek than Teutonic) you may be in for serious trouble; some small villages are 100% Nazi. Police do nothing, how should they, they simply have too few officers, and even if they had enough men and equipment, it's doubtful wether a district attorney would shoulder the responsibility.

Wow, that is absolutely fascinating. So when you say Nazism is still prevalent in East Germany, are we talking simply right-wing politics or a sincere desire to return to a Hitleresque power figure.

It's amazing because American's have no real concepts of dictatorships and the like. I find it interesting the competing dichotomies of socialism and capitalism in Europe, as tantalizing as socialism is, it seems at least in my estimation, to breed inequality and xenophobia in the longterm though it embraces the opposite in the short term.

I wrote an essay on my blog equating socialism with radical social conservatism, when a government runs entirely off of the whims of the majority there doesn't seem to be room for any evolution. Thus, Lenin's hyper-democratic, intellectual soviet system becomes an imperial dictatorship under Stalin and essentially stays that way for half a century, it took a complete economic collapse for that to change.

Politics and culture are so interesting.
 

Takumaji

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BoriquaSNK said:
Wow, that is absolutely fascinating. So when you say Nazism is still prevalent in East Germany, are we talking simply right-wing politics or a sincere desire to return to a Hitleresque power figure.

The East German Neo Nazi scene is very radical, much more so than their counterparts in the West. The name says it all, 90% of them are Neo Nazis, young unemployed guys of about 16 to 25 years who get off on strong leaders, a powerful Germany and a clear separation from the rest of Europe, as well as strong anti-foreigner laws ("Germany the Germans"). Some of them simply do what they have learned in the socialist GDR days, they gather in groups with strong hierarchical structures and mostly spend their days with drinking, hanging around and chasing foreigners or celebrating Hitler's birthday or Nazi-romantic bullshit like that. Many of them have the IQ of loaf of bread and even are quite tame when you catch them alone but go psycho in larger groups.

Only a few of them are organized but the number increases every day. The most prominent radical right-wing party is the NPD (National Democratic Party of Germany) which is under close scrutiny of various national intelligence agencies since their foundation in 1964. They are in contact with leading figures of the Neo Nazi scene but since the party members always have to be on their toes to avoid a judical ban, the connections are relatively loose.

However, not a lot of them are really political, their world is made of a strong sense for comradery, simple political messages, violence and tons of anger. They feel lost in this parlamentary democracy we have in Germany and to be honest I know how they feel in this case but well, it's the best system we have, fourty years of "real-existing" (but nonetheless non-working) socialism in the East is proof of that.

So... overall, at the moment the East German Nazi thing is more on the level of the football/soccer hooligan problem than an outright threat to inner security, even though our government is not decisive enough in this case which IMO puts them in a very bad light.

Bobak said:
Tak, you just made me realize there's potential for a lot of money to made in parts of Germany: those towns filled with old people and no young people... buy them up. Pay them good money, then reorganize the area into something like American exurbs tailored to wealthy Europeans and Americans who want to retire or have a vacation home in "picturesque German settings". Of course, this may involve Disneyfying things --but money is money.

heh, I guess this would be the most pragmatic way to go but if there is one thing a German will never do it's making things too simple and logical, we like our problems extremly complex and practically unsolvable and life-threatening and whatnot, you know.

Maybe we should start with Neo Nazi hunting bus tours or something.
 

LoneSage

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I think it's a damned shame people have so much hate in their hearts and look up to people like Hitler.

Oddly enough I was thinking about Hitler the other day for no reason (I forgot all about D-Day, can't believe it..); the guy was easily one of the most powerful figures in history and it's so sad that he used it for evil. He could have done great things with the power he held, really made a difference for the better in the world and yet he chose such a terrible path.

Sorry if this post sounds like something out of a generic anime but I mean it with every fiber of my being. People have so much potential to do good...
 

Setsuna1982

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LoneSage said:
I think it's a damned shame people have so much hate in their hearts and look up to people like Hitler.

Oddly enough I was thinking about Hitler the other day for no reason (I forgot all about D-Day, can't believe it..); the guy was easily one of the most powerful figures in history and it's so sad that he used it for evil. He could have done great things with the power he held, really made a difference for the better in the world and yet he chose such a terrible path.

Sorry if this post sounds like something out of a generic anime but I mean it with every fiber of my being. People have so much potential to do good...

for some reason, your post reminded me of Command and Conquer: Red Alert
 

Takumaji

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LoneSage said:
Oddly enough I was thinking about Hitler the other day for no reason (I forgot all about D-Day, can't believe it..); the guy was easily one of the most powerful figures in history and it's so sad that he used it for evil. He could have done great things with the power he held, really made a difference for the better in the world and yet he chose such a terrible path.

I can only recommend anyone interested in the historical figure Adolf Hitler to read Allan Bullock's excellent 'Hitler. A Study in Tyranny', which many rate as the most accurate and complete biography of the man and the menace Hitler ever written. The book has more than 1000 pages but it reads like a novel, Bullock has a very fluent and readable writing style, specially for a scientific author, and the attention to detail is simply amazing.

The deeper you dig, the sooner you will come to the conclusion that it was this feeble and evil mind which brought him and his party to power, a tame and conciliatory Hitler had had no chance to change the face of Europe and the world like he did. We had a good-mannered (yet indecisive) government before him during the Weimarer Republik from 1918-'33 but the Nazi revolution of January 30th 1933 swept the democractic movement away.

It's remarkable that even Hitler's reputedly "good sides" (like building of the Autobahn, getting rid of unemployment, etc.) had a purely militaristic background, him and his party created a blood and honor mythos and tried to turn the whole nation into a standing army of workers and soldiers, stuff like the Autobahn was just one of his many propaganda instruments and basically the first step of mobilization of the armed forces because troop movements could be done more easily with good infrastructure.

In other words, AFAIK there is not a single example for a "good" dicator in history, all these strong leaders the world has seen so far sooner or later showed their dark sides and made people suffer.

What some of these Nazis, Stalinists or other extremists (and not only them I might add) really dream of is not a political leader but a redeemer, someone who has all the answers to their questions and leads them to a better future, a good old daddy who protects his children from the big bad and mean world out there. Quite a few of these people would gladly give away their personal freedom if there only was a big strong man who'd think for them, and IMO that will be the biggest threat to the freedom of mankind during the next decades, not Bin Laden, the Taliban or other idiots, it's our own weakness, ignorance and lethargy which ultimately brings forth dictators.
 

soopafamicom

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Takumaji said:
....... the biggest threat to the freedom of mankind during the next decades, not Bin Laden, the Taliban or other idiots, it's our own weakness, ignorance and lethargy which ultimately brings forth dictators.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
 

LoneSage

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soopafamicom said:
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ - Edmund Burke
I thought that was Alucard :conf:

:tickled:
 

ki_atsushi

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Takumaji said:
I can only recommend anyone interested in the historical figure Adolf Hitler to read Allan Bullock's excellent 'Hitler. A Study in Tyranny', which many rate as the most accurate and complete biography of the man and the menace Hitler ever written. The book has more than 1000 pages but it reads like a novel, Bullock has a very fluent and readable writing style, specially for a scientific author, and the attention to detail is simply amazing.

The deeper you dig, the sooner you will come to the conclusion that it was this feeble and evil mind which brought him and his party to power, a tame and conciliatory Hitler had had no chance to change the face of Europe and the world like he did. We had a good-mannered (yet indecisive) government before him during the Weimarer Republik from 1918-'33 but the Nazi revolution of January 30th 1933 swept the democractic movement away.

It's remarkable that even Hitler's reputedly "good sides" (like building of the Autobahn, getting rid of unemployment, etc.) had a purely militaristic background, him and his party created a blood and honor mythos and tried to turn the whole nation into a standing army of workers and soldiers, stuff like the Autobahn was just one of his many propaganda instruments and basically the first step of mobilization of the armed forces because troop movements could be done more easily with good infrastructure.

In other words, AFAIK there is not a single example for a "good" dicator in history, all these strong leaders the world has seen so far sooner or later showed their dark sides and made people suffer.

What some of these Nazis, Stalinists or other extremists (and not only them I might add) really dream of is not a political leader but a redeemer, someone who has all the answers to their questions and leads them to a better future, a good old daddy who protects his children from the big bad and mean world out there. Quite a few of these people would gladly give away their personal freedom if there only was a big strong man who'd think for them, and IMO that will be the biggest threat to the freedom of mankind during the next decades, not Bin Laden, the Taliban or other idiots, it's our own weakness, ignorance and lethargy which ultimately brings forth dictators.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
 

Segata_Sanshiro

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Resurrecting an old thread...I was going to comment initially but I got disconnected and couldn't be arsed to type it all out again at the time.

Takumaji said:
D-Day... what the Allies did back then cannot be regarded highly enough, it was the day of birth of post-war Europe.

According to a Russian history professor of mine, D-Day was more about saving France from the Soviets than the Nazis. You see, it's a misnomer to call D-Day the 'turning point' of the war, as the turning point was really Stalingrad. The only major step forward the Wehrmacht took after that, at least in the Eastern theater, was at Kursk. The ideal outcome of the war for the West would have been for the Germans to overtake Russia, and then for US/British/Canadian etc. forces to invade Germany, thus taking care of the Soviet and Nazi problems at the same time. So, prior to D-Day, the Allies gave Stalin excuses and delayed an invasion of the European mainland. The invasions of Italy and North Africa aided in development of field tactics but were of little strategic value, and daylight bombing raids probably did more damage to the 8th air force than Germany (again, early on). However, after Stalingrad it became evident that Hitler would not be able to secure victory in the East, and the West undertook Operation Overlord to limit Soviet gains in territory (and rocket scientists, etc.).

The war in the East was very brutal, I suggest you learn as little about it as possible.
 

Takumaji

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Segata_Sanshiro said:
Resurrecting an old thread...I was going to comment initially but I got disconnected and couldn't be arsed to type it all out again at the time.



According to a Russian history professor of mine, D-Day was more about saving France from the Soviets than the Nazis. You see, it's a misnomer to call D-Day the 'turning point' of the war, as the turning point was really Stalingrad. The only major step forward the Wehrmacht took after that, at least in the Eastern theater, was at Kursk. The ideal outcome of the war for the West would have been for the Germans to overtake Russia, and then for US/British/Canadian etc. forces to invade Germany, thus taking care of the Soviet and Nazi problems at the same time. So, prior to D-Day, the Allies gave Stalin excuses and delayed an invasion of the European mainland. The invasions of Italy and North Africa aided in development of field tactics but were of little strategic value, and daylight bombing raids probably did more damage to the 8th air force than Germany (again, early on). However, after Stalingrad it became evident that Hitler would not be able to secure victory in the East, and the West undertook Operation Overlord to limit Soviet gains in territory (and rocket scientists, etc.).

Stalingrad indeed was the military turning point but I was referring to the feeling of the general German public and the normal soldier buried in mud or snow on the Eastern front, not the big historical picture. Nazi propaganda managed to give Stalingrad a totally different face than it actually had so consequently the impact of the events surrounding Overlord was much higher than anything else before or after.

People felt that now the Allies were really after them while the Italian landing had none of such psychological consequences.

About the bombing raids, that still is a difficult topic over here... of course the military gain was minimal (and people like Arthur Harris knew that perfectly well) but in one way, Harris and the American pro-carpet bombing people were right, the psychological effects were devastating, at least after Hamburg and Dresden, yet not the way Harris and friends had had in mind when they conceived their firestorm technique.... ah well, guess we sowed the wind in London and Warshaw and reaped the storm, eh.

The war in the East was very brutal, I suggest you learn as little about it as possible.

Well, my father was there in the Djnepr region as a infantry corporal, he was POW'ed and came back as late as 1947 so I know a thing or two about the Eastern front, and yeah, apart from tactical/strategical military history, the trail of blood of the Einsatzgruppen and other special forces is a horrible path to follow.
 

Segata_Sanshiro

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Well, my father was there in the Djnepr region as a infantry corporal, he was POW'ed and came back as late as 1947 so I know a thing or two about the Eastern front

Oh yes, I realize that, just telling everyone else who might not know, and I wasn't trying to attack you with the first part either. Just a good quote to introduce my professors assessment of what happened, I was wondering what people thought about that.

My grandfather was in North Africa and Italy. He won't talk much about any of it except a few anecdotes about Monte Cassino. I think it really scarred him. 60 years later he still hates Italians and won't eat margarine (the army didn't have butter apparently).
 
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Takumaji

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Segata_Sanshiro said:
Oh yes, I realize that, just telling everyone else who might not know, and I wasn't trying to attack you with the first part either. Just a good quote to introduce my professors assessment of what happened, I was wondering what people thought about that.

My grandfather was in North Africa and Italy. He won't talk much about any of it except a few anecdotes about Monte Cassino. I think it really scarred him. 60 years later he still hates Italians and won't eat margarine (the army didn't have butter apparently).

No offense taken. Monte Cassino was a slaughterhouse, no wonder your grandfather does not like to talk about it.

When I was 6 or 7, I asked my father how many Russians he killed in WW2 and I will never forget his face when he replied "too many not to be ashamed of". This sort of burned-in into my soul forever... he as many other WW2 veterans who have seen the sheer terror of a highly mechanised war did not go into full detail about his experiences on the Eastern front, at least not when my sister and I were still kids. This dramatically changed when he felt his end coming near in the early 90s, from then on he developed a strong desire to tell us all about it, enough material for a huge book that would make a quite disturbing reading I guess.

I was in my early twenties back then but it still was kinda hard to stomach, like countless others of his generation of all nations, he got sacrificed in a boiling kettle of blood for the delusions of grandeur of a little Austrian with a Chaplin moustache...
 

BoriquaSNK

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When I read about Dresden and Tokyo, then Hiroshima and Nagasaki...It's tragic but seems unavoidable.

It's so sad that so many people had to die to save so many more.
 

norton9478

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BoriquaSNK said:
When I read about Dresden and Tokyo, then Hiroshima and Nagasaki...It's tragic but seems unavoidable.

It's so sad that so many people had to die to save so many more.

Dresden was absolutely avoidable.......
 

Takumaji

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norton9478 said:
Dresden was absolutely avoidable.......

The bombing raid itself was absolute nonsense in strategic/military or even psychological terms but practically, it was inevitable or even imperative from an Allied point of view.

Thing is, Dresden and Hamburg (Operation Gomorrah) not only had no measureable impact on industrial productivity or infrastructure, they also smithed the Nazis and their supporters even closer together and thus only added to the problem instead of helping to solve it IMO.

The consequences of these carpet bombings still haunt us today, no week goes by without discovery of unexploded Allied bombs... damn man, our old world burned down to ashes in these bombing nights.
 

norton9478

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Takumaji said:
The bombing raid itself was absolute nonsense in strategic/military or even psychological terms but practically, it was inevitable or even imperative from an Allied point of view.
.

Word on the street is that it was a reprisal attack.
 
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