Terrorist attack in Spain: 192 people dead, 1400+ injured

173 people have been killed today in Madrid, and 592 have been injured, due to a henious and cowardly terrorist attack by E.T.A.

As usual, the BBC's report is far from perfect, but a good read for English speakers nonetheless:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3500452.stm

The article fails to mention many facts, like for example:

1. Due to Spain's legal system (which is a fucking joke), the maximum penalty a terrorist may suffer is being incarcerated for 30 years, easily half that number if he has "good behaviour" while in jail. They are even separated from common criminals, so that they "poor" guys do not have to be beaten up by the rest. All of this is done in the name of "reintegration", that fuzzy, elusive concept which is still so appreciated all throughout Europe.

2. The President of the Basque Country, which they quote saying that he is sooooo sorry for the attacks, has, like the Sinn Feinn in Ireland, always been ambiguous about terrorism. E.T.A. and PNV (the nationalist party currently in power in the Basque country) are one and the same thing: they just have some *small* differences sometimes in the means that they must use to attain their objectives. "Hey, Jon, try to be more careful the next time you put a bomb on them Spaniards...killing 4 or 5 politicians is ok, but don't just kill 100+ people...it gives US a bad image!"

PS: idiotic comments will not be appreciated. This intends to be a SERIOUS thread. Thanks.

Edit: the number of casualties has increased over the last hours, from 138 to 172. As more injured people die, the numbers will probably go up even more.

[Bobak's Edit: updated the casualty toll]

Crap man. These people are pissing me off. Dont they have anything else to do?

Yeah someone should give them some video games like GTA or something so when they feel like blowing something up they can on the game.

fuck ETA

The goverment in Spain better go army on ETA now and put an end to this already.. shit

Yeah, it's horrible, I'm watching the breaking news on TV right now... I feel for those ppl...

Damn.

If this really was ETA, all I can say is this:

Thanks to all of you for your support. Nice to see that you guys understand our predicament. Many Spaniards are tired of hearing other EU-people talking about the Basque "freedom fighters" and their "crusade for freedom", etc. , etc. Geez.

MrLonghair said:

The goverment in Spain better go army on ETA now and put an end to this already.. shit

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That's exactly what I think, but it is not to be. The army cannot do anything on Spanish territory, save rescue operations and the like.

Objectively speaking, I think that the best solution would be to give them their goddamn independence. Watching the terrorists and their supporters starve when they no longer can depend on the central government for investments, social security, funding, etc. would be very nice indeed. On the other hand, if they still persisted in their henious attacks after having been given independence, the Spanish Army would then be entitled to respond to said attacks with full force, given that it would be a foreign attack.

This is terrible terrible news.

If it is ETA, then they've made a huge mistake. An act this heinous will only ensure a huge crackdown.

I feel immensely sorry for all the deceased and wounded and their relatives.

Sorry to hear that Lovecraft0110, it always sucks hearing about stuff like this, #1 for the fact I have a personal stake it losing a friend to terrorism as he was never accounted for after the Twin Towers fell, and #2 because anything waged against Non-Combatants to me is just both cowardly and outrageous at the same time.

So what is your government going to do about it? Are they planning on getting tough like GWB and the Posse (seriously here, he might suck at everything else, but GWB did assemble and deploy military might quicker than most since the days of WWII) or are they going to sit back and do nothing? *I'm not up to speed with the terrorism that goes on in your neck of the woods, so what are the movements fighting for? What's their platform? I know the PLO wants to regain ground that they feel Israel should hand back over to them, and in Ireland it's always been about relgious differences... but what's the deal in Spain?

I seriously doubt it, but if for some reason you're nation needed help and an international "Volunteer" Brigade is formed to wage war against the known terrorist powers is enacted (kind of like when Teddy Rosevelt assembled the "Rough Riders" to go to Cuba comprised of civilians, or the TIGERS of WWII who fought with the Chinese against Japan as a volunteer corps) please let me know. I don't speak much Spanish, but if something along the lines of that would EVER be put into action, I'd fly to your side of the world for the chance/honor of going to war against terrorist fuckards like that. *And I'm being dead serious here, I'm not talking out my ass either. If a 1st Anti-Terrorist Volunteer's Brigade is enacted allowing anyone to join, I'd drop everything I'm doing here to do that. I'm tired of the inactivity I live amongst here and the wife would rather me go to war than to have to hear my winded diatribes every other week, while keeping myself honed but not allowed into the MARINES due to official red tape surrounding my sleep meds.

Again, sorry to hear about such an atrocity.

MERCENARY X99

tsukaesugi said:

This is terrible terrible news.

If it is ETA, then they've made a huge mistake. An act this heinous will only ensure a huge crackdown.

I feel immensely sorry for all the deceased and wounded and their relatives.

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Thanks Tsuka.

Yes, it's E.T.A. , there is no question about it. Regretfully I don't think there will be any "crackdown" - that is the worst of all.

Bad news.
I dont know of many members from Spain, but hopefully no one we know got hurt in this attack...

What a disaster.

yeah...my spanish friends here are still shocked
thanks god none of their parents/friends have been involved

It's a fucking mystere at the moment
usually ETA claims its attack soon after

but they're still denying it
some of my friends believe that maybe even the same terrorists didnt expect such a massacre

... And it happened on day 11........ familiar date?

it always amazes me how people can honestly think that murdering civilians who are not directly involved is a valid way of expressing their point...
is it so easy for everyone to forget how effective Ghandi was by doing the EXACT OPPOSITE?

It truly amazes me that any group could find the idea of deliberately targeting unsuspecting civilians with explosives acceptable.

How could any act be more despicable?

Fuck- at least bomb government offices or national monuments. But civilian commuters? Talk about sitting ducks.

I hope this hardens Europeans to this sort of evil act- cause embracing violent psychos like these as 'freedom fighters' is getting really old, REALLY fast.

Anyways Lovecraft- sorry to hear about this bullshit. Maybe it's time to change some laws over there.

Originally posted by Mercenary X99
So what is your government going to do about it? Are they planning on getting tough like GWB and the Posse (seriously here, he might suck at everything else, but GWB did assemble and deploy military might quicker than most since the days of WWII) or are they going to sit back and do nothing? *I'm not up to speed with the terrorism that goes on in your neck of the woods, so what are the movements fighting for? What's their platform? I know the PLO wants to regain ground that they feel Israel should hand back over to them, and in Ireland it's always been about relgious differences... but what's the deal in Spain?

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I think Merc's questions are very interesting, and I think that all those of you unfamiliar with the problem of terrorism in Spain should read the following lines. I could write page upon page about this, but I'll try to summarize.

1. What is my government going to do about this?

The same as always, NOTHING at all, except whine and condemn terrorism verbally. Nice uh?

2. What is E.T.A. and what do they fight for?

E.T.A. is a terrorist organization whose only objective is transforming the Basque Country (one of the provinces of Spain, just like Texas is one of the States of the USA) into a country unto itself, not only in name, but also in actual terms, thus breaking apart from Spain.

Why?

Here the fun starts. The truth is that the whole idea of the basques' independence from Spain was born in the 19th century, in the mind of a madman (schizophrenic, actually) called Sabino Arana, who much like Hitler, proclaimed the "basques" to be a distinct, superior race to that of the "effeminate, weak and dirty" Spaniards.

This guy argued that the basques were a superior race, distinct from the rest of Spain, and also that historically the territories inhabitated by this supposed race had been a country separate from the rest of Spain. A beautiful, pastoral country inhabited by this superior race, and one which had suffered from centuries of oppression from the evil but inferior Spaniards.

This whole idiocy became very popular in the political chaos that Spain was in the late 19th and early 20th century. With the rise to power of General Franco, this kind of subversive, anti-Spanish ideologies were (understandably) not tolerated by the regime, and the basque fanatics responded by founding E.T.A. , supposedly to "liberate" the "basque people" from the oppression of Franco. But they didn't stop there. Once Franco died and Spain became a democracy, they not only continued with their terrorist attacks, but greatly intensified them. They were an autonomous province, like all the others in Spain (like the individual States are in the US), and they even had their own parliament and their own political parties. But that was not enough. Now they had several nationalist parties backing them up and they knew Spanish law would never stop them. And thus the story begins.

Now, the funny thing is that the whole argument employed by the basque nationalists (both violent and non-violent) is a fallacy.

First of all, the territories that now comprise the Basque Country were not even inhabitated by this mythical basque race. They lived further south. And of course, they were not "superior", just one of the many races which comprised medieval Spain.

Secondly, the provinces nowadays known as "The Basque Country" always were an integral part of the Crown of Castille, both geographically, politically, and culturally. The basques were actually proud of being castillians, and there is much evidence about this in the 16th and 17th centuries. Many of the "conquistadores" were basque, and (surprise, surprise) they considered themselves Spanish (and fanatical Spanish patriots at that).

Thirdly, the basques have never suffered any kind of oppression from the rest of Spain. Only during Franco's regime could someone say they were "oppressed", and then only in a very restricted sense. They were not killed, there was no genocide of basques, nor anything like that. They were just banned to speak in basque (more on that later) and to profess any belief in basque nationalism. Basically the same kind of oppression all the Spaniards from all parts of Spain suffered: lack of political freedom. Great excuse for terrorism, uh?

Fourthly: basque nationalism has traditionally defended the idea that "we have our own language, hence we should be an independent nation". This sounds convincing, but has several basic errors.

1) Until very recently, only a small proportion of the inhabitants of the provinces now called "The basque country" spoke basque. In the 16th and 17th centuries, for example, the amount of people who spoke basque was insignificant. All of those were peasant inmigrants from Navarra, the TRUE kingdom of the basque people. Only after Sabino Arana's thesis became popular did the people of "the basque country" start to speak BASQUE, as a trend.

2) Almost all regions of Spain have their own language, apart from Spanish. This does not make them "countries", but reflects the fact that Spain was and has always been a mosaic of different cultures.

Originally posted by Mercenary X99
I seriously doubt it, but if for some reason you're nation needed help and an international "Volunteer" Brigade is formed to wage war against the known terrorist powers is enacted (kind of like when Teddy Rosevelt assembled the "Rough Riders" to go to Cuba comprised of civilians, or the TIGERS of WWII who fought with the Chinese against Japan as a volunteer corps) please let me know. I don't speak much Spanish, but if something along the lines of that would EVER be put into action, I'd fly to your side of the world for the chance/honor of going to war against terrorist fuckards like that. *And I'm being dead serious here, I'm not talking out my ass either. If a 1st Anti-Terrorist Volunteer's Brigade is enacted allowing anyone to join, I'd drop everything I'm doing here to do that. I'm tired of the inactivity I live amongst here and the wife would rather me go to war than to have to hear my winded diatribes every other week, while keeping myself honed but not allowed into the MARINES due to official red tape surrounding my sleep meds.

Again, sorry to hear about such an atrocity.

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I know you're not kidding, man. And I won't be kidding either if I say that I would be happy to go to war with you against these bastards. Death to them all.

It's always a horrible thing when scumbag terrorists attack and kill civilians. They are too cowardly half the time to attack military objectives. This will accomplish nothing for their cause.

Sad news indeed, I hope the families of the victims can find some peace.

Mercenary X99 said:

Ireland it's always been about relgious differences...

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It's more to do with Northern Ireland being occupied by England, or at least it was, it has degenerated into a religious thing. I know exactly what the people in Madrid are going through and offer deepest condolances.

It's not as simple as "cracking down" or "going army" on the terrorists though, that usually only ends up with normal people losing civil liberties, another way has to be found. I dont know what that way should be but I do know, first hand, that it's almost impossible to defeat terrorists with force.

I had better news with my morning coffee... definitely not a good way to start the day.

How can people be so Fucktard (yes it has a capital F) as to bomb innocent people to ask for seccession??? The terrorist mind will always disgust/amaze me.

I wish all the best to Spain through these difficult times.

neobuyer said:

It truly amazes me that any group could find the idea of deliberately targeting unsuspecting civilians with explosives acceptable.

How could any act be more despicable?

Fuck- at least bomb government offices or national monuments. But civilian commuters? Talk about sitting ducks.

I hope this hardens Europeans to this sort of evil act- cause embracing violent psychos like these as 'freedom fighters' is getting really old, REALLY fast.

Anyways Lovecraft- sorry to hear about this bullshit. Maybe it's time to change some laws over there.

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Yeah, I totally agree. Changing the law would be a good solution (DEATH PENALTY TO ALL OF THEM!) but...it's not gonna happen.

Talk about whining, uneffective governments.

This is very tragic.

It sure sounds like ETA, but I'll reserve connecting them until they're formally connected. ETA's been nearly eliminated (relatively speaking), at its lowest level in 30 years from Spanish crackdowns.

After all: In the US, a whole bunch of knee-jerk retards automatically assumed those anthrax letters were from the middle east (I never believed that), and they ended up being domestic assholes trying to pin the blame. So in this case the dynamite is apparently like that which ETA uses... not enough. Spain was one of America's bosum buddies against Iraq -that may have made it a target for other groups.

Regardless, they've got to catch the bastards responsible.

Mercenary X99 said:

I seriously doubt it, but if for some reason you're nation needed help and an international "Volunteer" Brigade is formed to wage war against the known terrorist powers

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Umm... You do at least know of the Spanish Civil War, right? It's like you just described the anti-Franco forces.
It didn't work. For some reason, people are less likely to volunteer to fight (effectively) for an ideology.

On a side note, I don't totally agree with Lovecraft0110's dismissal of Basque culture and heritage. I grew up with a very large Basque minority in my hometown in CA and they sure as hell didn't identify with Spain (we even had 4 Basque eateries, though I must admit I don't like their cuisine). To say that the Basque have no claim about their ethnic national origin is absurd. Now, using violence is never okay -but I can understand why an ethnic group (within their own historical homeland) would be a little peeved if they were being forced to not teach their own language. Defending oppressed ethnicities is why the US got involved in Kosovo. Again -I'm not drawing a comparison to the events today, they were completely FUBAR. However, I do have a problem with dismissing an entire ethnic group for what may be the acts of a few crazies. I bet any average Palestinian/ Irish-Catholic/etc would tell you the same thing.

Well, something pretty sad about this is it finally got more than the back page of American news. That it took something this big for us to mention it is terrible when we are supposedly trying to rid the world of terrorists. We are so isolated from the world. We finally got hit with one attack and we think we are some big target, but far more than 3,000 people have been killed over the decade long revolts of many separatist groups.

Sorry to hear this lovecraft, I hope something can be resolved between the government and the ETA, although isn't it strange that the ETA still hasn't claimed responsibility?

lithy said:

Well, something pretty sad about this is it finally got more than the back page of American news. That it took something this big for us to mention it is terrible when we are supposedly trying to rid the world of terrorists. We are so isolated from the world. We finally got hit with one attack and we think we are some big target, but far more than 3,000 people have been killed over the decade long revolts of many separatist groups.

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Oh come on now, lithy,

any car-flag waving American knows that terrorism really didn't exist until 9/11

Even if it did it wasn't important.

Now, post 9/11 it's very important -even when it happens to other people (of course, we still rank news coverage (1) white countries (2) Asian (3) Brown (4) Miscellaneous (5) Africa.

Terrorism in any form in any place in uncalled for. No one in any country is safe anymore. Is this the future we have to look forward too? My deepest sympathies to you and your compadres
Lovecraft0110, in your time of loss.

Bobak said:

Oh come on now, lithy,

any car-flag waving American knows that terrorism really didn't exist until 9/11

Even if it did it wasn't important.

Now, post 9/11 it's very important -even when it happens to other people (of course, we still rank news coverage (1) white countries (2) Asian (3) Brown (4) Miscellaneous (5) Africa.

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I'm sensing sarcasm up top

SO

skipping down below is that still sarcasm? I still don't find that we think terrorism around the world is all that important.